Talk:Porvoo

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[edit] merge from Suomenkylä

A part of city, unless hugely noteworthy (like Brooklyn, NYC), should be included in the article on the city.--Esprit15d 16:18, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suomenkylä should be cleaned up

.. or edited to match its importance (or rather lack of.)

Should remove this or edit to some standard regarding language, etc. This seems more like graffiti to me.

[edit] POV

At present, there is nationalist POV in the article, inserted by User: Jaakko Sivonen. He repeatedly inserts the name Viipuri for the Russian city of Vyborg, with the argument that at that time in history the city was Finnish although it is now Russian. By the same logic, we should use the Swedish name Borgå for Porvoo, as the town was a part of the Kingdom of Sweden until 1809 and still had a Swedish speaking majority only 40 years ago.JdeJ 17:14, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

We use names that are most suitable and consistent for the period and context of the issue. It is of course undeniable that these areas of Finland have always used Finnish language, as majority language, also when they belonged to another, multi-ethnic political entity. It is vital to know what anglophones tend to use. I have seen no evidence that English speakers use Borgå over Porvoo in any periods of history. There is no such logic for naming in English Wikipedia as JdeJ alleges - that claim can be ignored outright. Regarding the specific question of what names to use in text when speaking transfers between two towns at a time when both regions had a Finnish-speaking majority, I tend to accept that both names could and should be in Finnish - particularly as the context speaks of these two in side of each other (you know, consistency in that piece of text). I am relatively certain that anglophones did not use "Vyborg" of that town at that time. Russia herself in those periods did not regard Viipuri as Russian town, but called and administered it chiefly in German. Vyborg for that context enjoys no mentionable support in sources. Marrtel 06:30, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

We use the correct names. That Marrtel does not see the logic is not something I can do much about, nor is it anything that concerns me. This is the official rule given for all Finnish towns. During all the time Vyborg was known as Viipuri and had a Finnish speaking majority, Porvoo was known as Borgå and had a Swedish speaking majority. Please be consistent and stop nationalistic POV-pushing. JdeJ 09:30, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Viipuri was and is a Finnish city, although it is today occupied by Russia. --Jaakko Sivonen 01:48, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Meanwhile, the WP:NC policy commands us to use the English name, which is Vyborg. So you should stop inserting non-compliant names into the article... -- Grafikm ^(AutoGRAF) 01:52, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Wrong, Vyborg is the Russian name, English does not have an own name for the city. Viipuri was the only official name when the city belonged to Finland and the area was inhabited by Finns earlier than any Russian occupier even existed. And in this context we are talking about a unilingually Finnish city too, it would be non-sense to use the Russian name. --Jaakko Sivonen 02:01, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Vyborg is the Russian name, and for that reason it is also the international name since the town belongs to Russia. We all know that you don't like that fact, but that does not change a thing. Countless regions, cities and towns have changed hand as a result of war and we use the names they are known under today. So please stop this nationalist nonsense of trying to insert Finnish names all over the place. JdeJ 09:05, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

The German, official, name of Munich is München, why does Wikipedia not use that name? --Jaakko Sivonen 22:55, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Shouldn't we call the historic Vyborg as "Wiborg" or "Viborg" (the official name of the town in 1721, which Viipuri as a Finnish name certainly wasn't, even if it was the form used by the majority), and the Diet of Porvoo as the "Diet of Borgå" (the town was not "Porvoo" even in Finnish back then, the document is annettu Borgåsa (given in Borgå)? This should conform with WP:NC, at least if the article about Constantinople or the Free City of Danzig are in line with the WP:NC principles. And Borgå is used also in English context at least in Encyclopaedia Britannica 1911, see here: http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Borga Ultrix 19:27, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

No, we should not. I'm sorry to let you down, Svecomaniac, but we use the language of the majority, therefore f.ex. Helsinki instead of Helsingfors and Vaasa instead of Vasa. --Jaakko Sivonen 22:53, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

And that why we have Vyborg and not Viipuri.JdeJ 23:23, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

So why are you not writing Hamina as Hamina but with the Swedish name??? --Jaakko Sivonen 06:50, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Hamina should always be written as Hamina. But 'The Treaty of Fredrikshamn' is a name of a treaty not of a city. We don't speak about the 'Free state of Gdansk' or the 'Free state of Rijeka', instead we say 'Free state of Danzig' and 'Free state of Fiume' even if the names of the two cities should be Gdansk and Rijeka when writing about them.JdeJ 12:24, 2 December 2006 (UTC)