Talk:Portuguese Empire

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[edit] Improvement

Heh, anyone who takes a look at the history of this page is going to have fun sorting that all out. ;) -- John Owens 09:27 21 May 2003 (UTC)

Heh. Yes. But the page is a marked improvement from its first version. :) Evercat 09:30 21 May 2003 (UTC)
Heh, I hadn't looked at the first graffiti version before I suggested a move instead of a new page & redirect, maybe I would have left it alone if I'd seen that. -- John Owens 09:36 21 May 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Doubts

Was the Portuguese Empire "the first and largest colonial empire of the 16th century", as the article says? And the Spanish Empire? (see the opinion of Wetman in the end of Talk:Spanish Empire) --Gimferrer 19:32, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I've gone through the article and hopefully improved it stylistically. It still needs someone to pick through the factual assertions, however. Like you, I raised an eyebrow at the claim that Portugal's empire was larger than Spain's in the 1500s. There's also omissions, for example concerning the conquest of the Azores and Madeira, and the effect of the Napoleonic wars on the relationship with Brazil; and some tidying up and nitpicking is needed in the final listing of the various territories. This is my first ever attempt at this sort of thing, so I hope that I've not embarrassed myself! (Silverhelm 23:05, 15 August 2005 (UTC))
I suppose the compartive size of the Portuguese ans Spanish empires depends on the exact date of comparison... The Ogre 14:33, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

If we take into account that the Spanish Crown, through Phillip II of Spain (I of Portugal), took control of the Portuguese possessions at the end of the 16th century, then the 'Spanish' Empire would be bigger! lol But before that 'outrage' (note: personal oppinion of a Portuguese lol), most of the Atlantic and Indian Ocean's coast of Africa, West Coast of India, Ceylon, etc, etc were under control of the Portuguese and compared with the Spanish terrritories in America, that were still struggling against the Mayans, Aztecs, etc, the Portuguese Empire had been bigger. De facto it had been bigger since its creation in 1415, after the conquest of the moorish city of Ceuta, wich, ironically, nowadays is under Spanish control.--Ciga 22:07, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, the Portuguese Empire was the first and largest empire in the first half of the XVI century. In terms of continents it was the most scatered, as it existed in at least 4 continents. Athough most of the territory inhabited were the mian coastal cities, technically their influence in the region was greater than any other in most cases not to mention that in large areas there weren't any oppositions that was seem as problematic but the main problem of the Portuguese settlers was that their numbers were few and the population in Portugal was already relatively low. Technically, by the year 1578 with the death of D.Sebastião, Spain was able to join all the Portuguese Empire with it's Empire, thuis creating the greatest empire of that time. But if you look at the total area under the rules of the Portuguese crown in the first half of the 1500s and compare it with the Spanish crown you will see that despite all Portuguese possessions are all scatered all around the planet, they still in total make a large area than the Spanish possessions, which were mostly limited to central america and Peru and in south america, the possessions were mostly in the north and coastal parts of Peru. .--Thorius Maximus 23:36, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Zanzibar

Thats part of Tanzania not Oman is it just a mistake or was there another place called Zanzibar?Falphin 22:09, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

No it is Zanzibar in Tanzania. I've heard that there are even Portuguese speakers there. But I can't tell. -- Pedro 23:21, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
There was Arab exploration, and I think to a small extent, colonization along the coast of East Africa. I'm ashamed to say that I've only got one book here on African history ("Africans: The History of a Continent", by John Iliffe, pub. Cambridge University Press), but it does have this: "It was probably this prosperity that led the rulers of Oman on the Persian Gulf to convert into real authority the nominal overlordship of the coast which they had claimed since leading opposition to the Portuguese there in 1698". I think that this is the origin of the sultanate that fought the famous forty-minute "war" with the British. (Silverhelm 23:05, 15 August 2005 (UTC))
It is indeed Zanzibar, Tanzania. The territory went to Omani control the last time it switched hand from Portugual. I suppose it isn't really the purpose of this article to discuss the eventual fate of the former colonial possessions. In some cases it could've switched hands several times (while none concerning Portugal) before achieving today's status. --Kvasir 16:02, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Map of colonial posessions

I think a World Map of Portuguese colonial posessions throughout history is needed here! Dont' you agree? The Ogre 14:33, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

I made a map of the Empire, but only during John III's reign. Tell me what do you thing in order for me to improve it. You can see it in Portuguese Empire or John III of Portugal. Thanks. Gameiro 05:10, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
Hello João Pais / Gameiro! Good work on the map! Tell me: how do you do it? I'm interested in knowing how to do that. What program do you use? Now for some comments on the map.
  • This is very good, but the article, as you very well know, is about the Portuguese Empire troughout history and not just during D.John III's reign. The idea I had in mind was a map depicting all of Portuguese colonial posesions (as the list Portuguese Empire#Territories of the Portuguese empire seems to show). This could be done with different colours for diferent time periods of actual control of territories. It would even be more perfect if the map could show voyages of discovery and exploration (land and sea) again all troughout history (or maybe this could be better in a topic of its own?).
  • What does the difference between the green areas and the brown spots represent (I know they are green squares with a red border, but they look brown everywhere but the high-resolution version...)? It seems to me that the brown spots are cities, is that it? But still, why the diference?
  • The island posessions are not very visible (even in the high-resolution version). Maybe they could be represented by a slightly larger and more visible dot (even if this is not cartographically very acurate)?
  • What is the green spot (island) south of Madeira and north of Cape Verde? The Canary islands? I think they are much closer to mainland Africa...
  • What areas did Portugal actually and effectively controled? All those green coastlines in Africa weren't "real" colonies, were they? I mean, maybe there were specific spots (such as Elmina Castle or the Fort of São João Baptista de Ajudá) effectively controled, but the rest was kind of just an area of influence and commerce, right? That difference should be visible on the map.
I think it's everything... Do tell how the maps are done, maybe I could help! Keep up the good work! The Ogre 16:30, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
P.S. - there seems to be a slight formating problem in the page due to the map. The first word of the first paragraph of the introduction ("The") is above the map and the rest of the intro is below. This needs fixing... or is it just my browser? The Ogre 16:30, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
Well, first of all, thanks. I've worked hard on that map. Now your questions:
  1. I did the map on Adobe Photoshop but first copied one of the blank maps that you can find in here: Wikipedia:Blank maps.
  2. About your idea for the perfect Portuguese Empire map. Yes, I know that the map regarding John III's reign isn't sufficient but you can imagine what tremendous task it would be to build a map with all Portuguese possessions with: all the territories, plus minor cities and fortresses, effective control (but with no active presence) plus the voyages and chonological differences. If you are up to it then I wish you the greatest of lucks. My suggestion is to divide it by periods... One map it's impossible. I put the map during John III because it is the height of Portuguese control in all the continents.
  3. As for the brown spots... I was a bit disappointed when I saw the green squares with red border turn brown... It was supposed to represent a city or a fortress that was under Portuguese control and couldn't be seen if it was just a small green spot (like the islands of Azores). I thought that the red border would be fine but now I'm starting to dislike it.
  4. As for the islands size I don't think they can't be represented by a larger dot... It would be surreal. But I didn't try to enlarge them. I'll try it to see if it's fine.
  5. Sorry for the spot between Madeira and Cape Verde... It's just stupid. I forgot to delete it... It was an initial study for the "brown spots". I need to make some adjustments to the map.
  6. Yes, I believe you're right about the influence areas. I spent some time thinking about how could I make them seem different. As I said, I'm going to make adjustments. What do you think about making a differente lighter green area for the influence? And add that area to the coasts of India, Southeast Asia, Moluccas and perhaps southern China?
  7. As for the help. I would apreciated it. Be my guest and copy my map if you want, and make all the changes you want. If you want to do the task I proposed above (lighter green area or add Elmina and Ajudá) tell me something first. I'm a bit tired of making the map because I spent all night doing this one. If you'd help me would be great. If you need help with photoshop ask me in my talk page. As for my name is João Gameiro Pais, but I prefer Gameiro.
  8. Keep up the good work. Gameiro 17:16, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

I think that a map of all possesions of the Portuguese Empire of all times would be very illustrating, to say the least, to a lot of people. I get the impression that many English speaking people are not aware of the dimensions of the Portuguese Empire and certainly not aware that almost litterally everywhere they look in a world map they will see a Portuguese name of some location.--Ciga 22:19, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

The Spanish territories in North America as seen in the article's map seem to be exaggerated. For example, it appears from the map that a large section of what is now the central United States was included in the Spanish empire whereas, in reality, those territories were actually under French control by the early 18th century.

[edit] Empire of Brazil

The header "Empire of Brazil (1640-1822)" is both inaccurate and misleading since no such entity existed in the aforementioned period. From 1549 till 1714, Brazil was a crown colony ruled by one or sometimes two Governor Generals. From 1714 till 1815, the colony was divided into two Viceroyalties, styled respectively the Viceroyalty of Brazil and the Viceroyalty of Grão-Pará. From 1815 till 1822, Brazil was elevated to the status of United Kingdom with Portugal and Algarve. It was only after 1822, when Brazil was already an independent country, that Pedro I used the title of "Emperor of Brazil" ( AFAIK, no Portuguese monarch had ever claimed that title before during the colonial period). (anonymous)

  • I'm not the author, but that's not about a title, but an event. After India, Portugal turned to Brazil and then to Africa... but it maybe is misleading. --Pedro 13:16, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Upper Peru?

The list of American colonies lists Upper Peru as colony in 1822. I can't find information on this anywhere, does anyone know the history? --Andrelvis 03:14, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Upper Peru (today's Bolivia) was occupied by the Portuguese during the Napoleonic Wars. Since Spain was, until 1808, an ally of France, and the Portuguese Queen and Court had «withdrawn» to Brazil, the Spanish colonies became fair game for the Portuguese. Uruguay and the French Guyana were also occupied during this period, and remaind occupied for quite some time. In my opinion, however, to call Upper Peru a Portuguese colony is a bit far-fetched.--Nuno Gabriel Cabral 18:11, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cleaning up

This article needs someone whose native language is english to clean up some cumbersome sentences. "In 1433 Cape Bojador was doubled" <- Vê-se mesmo que isto foi escrito por um português. "Dobrado" vem de dobrar como em dobrar roupa e assim. Em inglês não existe coincidência entre dobrar de fazer o dobro e dobrar de dobrar roupa. -arcozelo

Done as of yesterday. --maf 14:29, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Accuracy ...

.. could be disputed at present; e.g. Burma, Sri Lanka. The article implies that entire countries or territories belonged to Portugal, though the actual possession was limited to a few settlements, coastal areas, or was contested. Imc 18:54, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Technically since there wasn't almost any opposition(and some of these costal settlemenst were taken through belical means), the autoctone populations weren't much of a danger to the securaty of the coastal possessions(due to the strong military presence in those cities), and since there weren't any opposition in the surrounding area, not to mention that many of these coastal cities were the economically and political centre of entire regions that could reach hundreds of miles, technically by taking the main coastal cities or dozens of miles, you also gain economical, political control of the region, that is, providing you have the necessary military power to continue having the city under your control, but it is also true that Portugal also tried to maintain teritorial control of the regions around these coastal cities, thus by saying that it was more that just the cities isn't entirely untrue. --Thorius Maximus 23:44, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Terra Nova, Terra do Lavrador and Terra de Corte Real

I think portuguese exploration and colonization of this north american lands are not discussed here. Portugal was an active force on exploration of the north-eastern part of North America and de facto claimed these lands to Portugal (Cantino 1503 is the first map claiming this, showing Newfoundland as "Terra del Rey de Portugal", followed by Waldseemuller 1507 in wich Newfoundland is shown with the portuguese flag) and tried to colonise them in the 1520s (with João Álvares Fagundes). In several maps of the 16th century the portuguese shield is shown, as in João Vaz Dourado (I don't remember now exactly the year, but is from the middle of the century). I think the article and the map could talk about this subject more than a single dot in the map. These lands were really part of the portuguese empire and it seems nobody is pointing this, here and everywhere in wikipedia excluding, obviosly, the articles of the explorers.--Câmara 19:51, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Then we should put these facts, we should also establish connections between these facts and Colombo's related facts, at is, if the sub article is made. --Thorius Maximus 4:05, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Done. But how I can put the pictures with the copyright thing? The Cantino (and the João Vaz Dourado) maps are essencial in here!Câmara 02:09, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sugestions

I have some sugestions, please comment:

-I think the map should appear at the top of the page, and the "history of portugal series" after.

-I think the "begining of the empire" should be split because it's too big now, very massive. I think we can make some chapters in time: From Ceuta to Cape Bojador, From Cape Bojador to Cape of Good Hope, Tordesilhas and implications, the route to india, asiatic exploration, north american exploration, south american exploration and the height of the empire. Only after we can go to the Habsburg kings. Now we have like a super massive block having all these things together, it's not good to read, and I think is a mess. I sugest some more images too (maps, caravels, etc).

-I suggest to grow "The empire of Africa 1822-1945". Why not talking about portuguese explorers, the pink map (lol, I don't know if in english is like this).

-I think the territories of the portuguese empire should go to another page, here they are huge.

Please also comment the North American portuguese possession thing I wrote here.--Câmara 20:16, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your suggestions Câmara. I encourage you to be bold and edit the article. I'll help you out in the process. It is obvious that this article needs a revamp. Those subdivisions you mentioned were pretty good. This lacks a good introduction by the way. Joaopais 01:31, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Second that. Edit live. A friendly hand will always be near to help if needed. --maf 14:31, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
New sections, some more information. More sugestions, anyone?Câmara 02:10, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Empire in the 20th century

How about a map?!? The Ogre 10:45, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

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