Talk:Port Chicago disaster
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 |
This article is part of WikiProject California, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to California on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article, or visit the project page to join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. |
Contents |
[edit] Linking
Currently Port Chicago mutiny is redirected to Port Chicago disaster. Ive edited the link to the mutiny out.Madcynic 12:56, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Conspiracy theory
I shored up this page a bit. I must admit I favor the Navy version of the story more than the crazy-ass "I bet it was a nuclear weapon" version of the story which I find to be patently ridiculous for the following reasons: 1. there is OVERWHELMING evidence to suggest that there was not enough fissionable material in 1944 for a self-sustaining chain reaction, 2. the only source for such a crazy notion is one guy's "web-based book" on the subject.
The entire connection to the Manhattan Project on the website seems to be based around a document purportedly smuggled out of Los Alamos which mentions that an atomic bomb would produce a "ball of fire mushroom out at 18,000 ft in a typical Port Chicago fashion." Which might look insiduous if you hadn't ever bothered to read any literature on the Manhattan Project: the scientists and military engineers looked at the results of many similar incidents for the purposes of gauging exactly what a few kilotons of TNT would do to a town. Explosions of that size were not common in military use and had only occurred in a few freakish accidents like that which happened at Port Chicago. They are simply referring to the Port Chicago explosion to give reference to something close to the size of an atomic bomb explosion (still, Port Chicago was, at best, a 5 kt explosion; compared to Hiroshima which was over twice that value).
But to insinuate that the Port Chicago explosion itself was caused by an atomic bomb not only flies in the face of all scholarly history and archival information, but also raises the lovely question of, "if it was an atomic bomb, then why were there 320 people loading 5 tons of explosives on the dock?" which is well documented not only in terms of records, but body count. It just doesn't make any sense, any way you slice it. --Fastfission 19:34, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC) (basic front for the first Atomic Bomb test, would be to have people actually loading munitions, giving the needed cover story)
- I've put back the "conspiracy theory" notes. I don't much believe it either, but there are some people out there who wonder why there was a white flash, and why the Navy was supposedly filming the explosion. Let the reader decide if they believe the nuclear bomb theory or not. 128.230.205.232
I edited it a bit.From what I can tell, the only guy who thinks this is Peter Vogel, and his work is not even published by a vanity press. Let's not give this nutty theory more attention that it deserves. This is nonsense on so many levels, anybody with the slightest idea about the history of nuclear weapons or their effects can tell you. --Fastfission 23:49, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)- I also reinserted a lot of the cut copy, which had more information about the incident (and less typos). If you want to create a page on the Port Chicago nuclear bomb theory, go for it (such as how Apollo_Moon_landing has a separate page for the silliness at Apollo_moon_landing_hoax_accusations). But the Port Chicago disaster incident needs to focus on the explosion and the mutiny, I think, not a couple tin-foil hatters misguided attempt at atomic history. --Fastfission 00:05, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- You all have been more than fair to the "journalist" who has dedicated himself to making a living off of his dubious claims of nuclear explosions in regard to this disaster. The best way to "bury" his evanescent accusations is to more fully develop the main article related to the disaster: i.e. give more details and testimony. There are more than enough sources to justify a longer, more detailed article. Cla68 00:34, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- I also reinserted a lot of the cut copy, which had more information about the incident (and less typos). If you want to create a page on the Port Chicago nuclear bomb theory, go for it (such as how Apollo_Moon_landing has a separate page for the silliness at Apollo_moon_landing_hoax_accusations). But the Port Chicago disaster incident needs to focus on the explosion and the mutiny, I think, not a couple tin-foil hatters misguided attempt at atomic history. --Fastfission 00:05, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Peter Vogel's comments?
I moved the following to this Talk page for what should be obvious reasons. --Fastfission 21:29, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- SUBMITTED BY PETER VOGEL, PVOGEL@TOGETHER.NET
- This was posted yesterday, Friday, with a few follow-ups, at:
- Details of the findings are posted at:
- By ikluft, Section News
- Posted on Fri Jul 16th, 2004 at 02:36:33 PM PST
- A year and a half ago when the Port Chicago debate erupted on SciScoop and Slashdot, the question came up, "Where's the radiation?" Trying to settle the urban legend one way or the other before the 60th anniversary of the accident (July 17), a friend and I drove there with an electronic geiger counter mounted outside my truck and my Linux Laptop inside, logging the data. What we found was startling.
- There is a 2-mile wide swath of higher-than-background (13-17 uR/hr measured from the road) radiation directly across the bay from Port Chicago on Grizzly Island. It gets less noticeable further inland, even with sensitive instruments. It's a wildlife area, so maybe that's why no one noticed. But the unexplained radiation is definitely there. And the shape is facing Port Chicago from across the bay.
- I posted my findings including instructions and source code so you can duplicate my experiment. Time to get the media to exercise their FOIA expertise and pester members of Congress for info.
- SUBMITTED BY:
- Peter Vogel
- pvogel@together.net
Personally I think this is just nonsense -- even if it HAD been an atomic bomb at Port Chicago (which I still find a ridiculous and unsupported suggestion), I doubt there would still be a "radiation plume" 50 years later (and frankly even if there WERE "highter-than-background" levels on Grizzly Island, to jump to the conclusion that this supports the otherwise crazy Port Chicago bomb theory is not warranted). And for the record, ANYONE can file a FOIA, not just the media. If I were to really suspect something for radiological contamination, it would not be a hypothetical and highly unlikely atomic bomb blast, but something related to one of the nearby reactors (Vallecitos?), national laboratories (Berkeley, Livermore?), or Cold War atomic research that took place at Hunter's Point (which was home to the Naval Radiological Defense Laboratory from the 1940s until 1969). But anyway, this sort of original not peer-reviewed research doesn't belong on Wikipedia, which is the real reason to move it to the Talk page, not just the fact that I find it to be a bit tin-foil hat. --Fastfission 21:35, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Merge from The Port Chicago 50
The Port Chicago 50 is a basically just a poorer quality version of this article; I don't see any reason it shouldn't just redirect here, with any worthwhile new bits merged. Pimlottc 21:28, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Merge from The Port Chicago 50
The Port Chicago 50 was submiited to discuss the individuals involved vice the actual incident. Then intent is to provide a discussion about the individual sailors. I would be willing to see a merge done if the the article was broadened to discussed the people.Absolon S. Kent 15:57, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
