Talk:Polish–Muscovite War (1605–1618)

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Contents

[edit] Requests

  • More pics, preferably showing something else except the victories of the Commonwealth (I could find only them online, but I expect a Russian speaker will be able to find more)
  • Expand the battlebox to cover Second Dimitriad and Insertformulahere1609-1618 war
  • Expand on interesting battles, like Moscow uprising or the siege of Smolensk

Anybody up to a job? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:41, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I started Tsaryovo-Zaimishche, Klushino, Mikhail Shein and Dmitry Shuisky to patch up some glaring omissions. --Ghirlandajo 14:58, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Battle of Moscow 1612 briefly described in Polish here. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 14:01, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

To Russian speaking friends: can you see if there is any relevant info here or here? I can understand some of this, but not enough to make details clear. Perhaps there is some useful info? Names, places, descriptions? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 19:43, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

I also found one page which has a terrible POV. It is in Englsh, so you may read it here. At first I wanted to take some details about Mozhaysk battle from this place, but after I read the parts like 'In XIV-XVII centuries Poles and Lithuanians were scrupulously engaged in obliteration of Russia' I am not sure if any info from this page is credible. Can anybody find anything else about the battle/sieges of Mozhaysk? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 19:43, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Name, start date?

Dymitriads seems to be the name invented, well, by me :) by translation of the Polish name. Perhaps we should move it to Polish-Muscovy War (160?-1618)? Btw, what is the recognized start date - 1605 or 1609? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 17:09, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

If the Polish/Russian term is not ok, then I'm fine with the current one, but I guess we should set some things straight. Shouldn't it be "Polish-Muscovite Wars"? Halibutt 20:50, July 31, 2005 (UTC)
I am not sure what is the Russian name. Polish Dymitriady which are rarely translated into English, and besides, they are the proper name only for the conflict between 1605-1609. This would be too small for a proper FA, so I decided to move it to a more general name. I am not sure about the difference between Muscovy and Muscovite, but I think you are right, the latter being and adjective would be more proper. Anybody care to change it and move the page? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 10:32, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

IMO the name must be symmetric: "Poland-Muscovy" or "Polish-Muscovite". The latter is preferrable, since this style seems to be common for wars: Polish-Swedish, Russo-Turkish, etc. mikka (t) 19:14, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

Amen. logologist 03:11, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Done. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 16:31, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Reverted article back

Not entirely sure why Poitrus reverted my edits. All I did was fix the Main article wikilinks. Atleast now they point somewhere. --Kross 18:02, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)

Errr, what do you mean 'fix'? You replaced the {{main|[[article name]]}} template with ''Main article: [[article name]]'' string. While the difference to a reader is null, I think templates are more useful, if only because they can be easily modified using 'what links here' function (and the main article template does need help, i.e. dividing between main article and subarticle confusion). Please correct me if I am wrong here and explain why your version is better? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 20:18, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

What are you talking about? The {{main|[[article name]]}} didn't link to *anything*. I was using the proper template. Look at the version before mine, the main article links were messed up. --Kross 22:01, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)

My mistake, there are no [[]] tags in the template, it should be {{main|article name}}. It does seem there was an error with the templates used. Fixed now. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 23:54, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Ladislaus

Please pick one of three: Ladislaus, Wladyslaw, Wladislaw, and stick with it. mikka (t) 17:59, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Ah, but which one. Oh well, for now I will use Wladislaus, as this is the name of his article. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 10:07, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
"Władysław," please. I don't know whether you realize how comical these "-laus" latinizations sound in English, rhyming as they do with "louse" (in Polish, literally wesz; in English, "louse" also denotes a despicable person). The last thing that serious Polish subjects need is this kind of humor. logologist 03:25, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Done. Do you think we should make this change in other articles, up to moving the article on the prince itself? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 06:27, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Well, it's a convention we adopted a long time ago... At the time we discussed it, there were two options: use the original latin spelling or anglicize the names of Polish monarchs by force. Should we use Polish names in all cases as well? Halibutt 09:29, August 4, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Unia troista

I will eventually write an article on this idea (from 1572 to 18th century). It is quite amazing - many ppl heard about this war, but few heard about the union proposals. Apparently, they were quite popular on both sides in that time. What a shame it never worked out (peacefully...). The Malec book I added to references covers this fairly extensively (until 1650s proposals), with some interesting details (i.e. what exactly was proposed, what was agreed, when, by whom), so if anybody wants any details on this leave me a message. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 17:36, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Dobrynicze, Zajmiszcze, Rohatyn

I found a source saying that Dobrynicze was an important battle during the First Dymitriad. Any info on this, including a Russian/English name of the place? Date would be nice. Battles for the Second Dymitriad and later war that we may be missing: Zajmiszcze, Rohatyn, Briańsk. Again, it would be nice if sb could add dates to those battles (and see if he can find any sources on the other battles from warbox for future reference). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 01:28, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Zajmiszcze seems to be another (Polish) name of Tsarovo (it has plenty of variants: Tsarowo, Carowo, Carowa, Cariewo), since my google search reveals quite a few references to Carowa-Zajmiszcze (Russian and English versions of Zajmiszcze spelling appreicated). Dobrynicze must evidently ben erroneous spelling, because I cannot find any google hists to it other then one page listing Polish battles (btw, date for it is 31 January 1605, and it also has some other dates: Smolensk IX 1609 r. – 13. VI 1611, Tsarow-Zajmiszcze VI – VII 1610, Kłuszyn 4. VII 1610 r., Rohatyn 17. V 1615 r, Briańsk Bryansk?) IV – VIII 1615 r). Rohatyn may be a battle of between Polish royal forces and Polish confederated forces (of konfederacja rohaczewska (?-problem with googling the name!) under Karwicki, note the similiarity of names - rohatyn, rohaczewska... - but to add some confusion, it seems to also be a site of a 16th century battle (around 1530, see [1]), besides, konfederacja should have ended in 1614, so why the battle date is 1615??), while Brańsk seems like a Polish-Muscovy battle (Muscovy commander: kniaź Jurij Szachowski). Brańsk seem to deserve more research since our article currently states there were no significant Polish-Muscovy battles from 1612 to 1617. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 14:12, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
Tsaryovo-Zaimishche seems to be a reasonably well-known location. The yandex search gives tinyurl.com/8pnzv 10,365 Russian hits. --Ghirlandajo 15:10, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
Map: you can find Rohatyn and some other places on this map (Lwów - Olesko - Podhorce - Poczajów - Krzemieniec - Wiśniowiec - Zbara¿ - Tarnopol - Trembowla - Czortków Skala Podolska - Borszczów - Kamieniec Podolaski - Żwaniec - Okopy Św. Trócy - Chocim - Czerniowce - Sniatyn - Kołomyja - Stanisławów - Halicz - Bursztyn - Rohatyn - Lwów - Żółkiew). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 14:12, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
Found a useful page with description of some Polish battles (in Polish) [2] (the site also contains sometimes lists of casualties). Below is a list of info to add to the article (still no info on Dobrynicze 1605):
Rohatyn update: found another source giving date 17.V.1614 (this makes sence): Defeat of confederated units of wojsko kwarciane under Karwacki. Koniecpolski sent the leader in chains to Żółkiewski..
Carowo-Zajmiszcze update: July 1610 Żółkiewski convinced Muscovy forces, much stronger then the ones at Kłuszyn, to capitulate and swear an oath of loyality to Władysław. Then he incorporated them into his forces and moved towards Moscow.
Dorohobuż (Dorogobuzh): October 1617 r. Jan Karol Chodkiewicz captures the fortress, local boyars swear loyality to Władysław.
Nowogród Siewierski - 1604 - victory of First Dimitrii. I am assuming it's the site of the unnamed place of the first (and only?) major victory of Dimitri I.
Smoleńsk - siege from 29 Sep 1609 to 13 June 1611. On that day kawaler maltański (?-English?) Bartłomiej Nowodworski inserted a mine into sewer canal (my guess - apparently successfull :) ). Jakub Potocki first on the walls.
Zarajsk - spring 1608 r. Aleksander Kleczkowski, future leader of Lisowczycy, leading few hundred of Don Cossacks (kozacy dońscy) defeats army of Wasyl Szujski under command of Zachar Lapunow. Captures Kołyma and moves on to the blocade of Moscow.

Zarajsk 1608 and Briańsk 1615 seem to be (Polish source) among the battles of Lisowczycy. After Zarajsk, Lisowczycy were defeated at Niedźwiedzi Bród, then with Jan Piotr Sapieha failed the siege of Lawra Troicko-Siergiejewska and retreated near Rachmancewo. Then came successes (pillages) at Kostroma, Soligalicz and some other cities (those battles took place around 1608-1609). He took Psków in 1610 and clashed with Swedes operating in Muscovy during the Ingrian War. Lisowczycy were essential in the defence of Smoleńsk in 1612, when most of regulars (wojsko kwarciane) mutined and joined the konfederacja rohatynska. For the next three years Lisowski's forces were important in the guarding of the Polish-Muscovy border against Muscovy incursions. In 1615 Aleksander Józef Lisowski gathered many outlaws and invaded Muscovy with 6 'choragiew' of calvalry. He lied siegeo to Briańsk/Bryansk and defeated the relief force of few thousadns soldiers under kniazh Jurij Szachowski near Karaczewo. Then Lisowski defeated the front guard of a much larger force (several times larger then himself) under the command of khniaz Dymitr Pozarski, who decided to defend instead of attack and fortified his forces in a camp. Lisowczycy broke contact with his forces, burned Bielów and Lichwin, took Pieremyszl, turned north, defeated Muscovy army at Rzew, turned to Kara Sea, then to Kaszyn, burned Torzek, returned to Poland without any interruptions from Muscovy forces. Until autumn 1616 Lisowski and his forces remained at the Polish-Muscovy border, when Lisowski suddenly fell ill and died on 11 October. Since then the formation was called after him Lisowczycy. Despite the death of Lisowski, his forces remained a singinfiant threat: in 1616 they captured Kursk and defeated Russian forces at Bolchow, in 1617 relieved Smolensk besieged by Russian forces, which lifted the siege and retreated to Biała soon after receiving news that Lisowczycy, then commanded by Stnaisław Czapiński were in the neighbourhood. When Czapiński died at Kaługa, Lisowczycy elected Walenty Rogawski for the new commander. They accompanied Władysław forces in 1617, and while he retreated, they came as far as Obu (?-wrong name? Abu?]], where they were impressed by the giant golden statue (possibly a Buddha statue]].

Uff. Translated and summarized Lisowczycy history relevant to this war, now I have to incorporate this into tha article - and I am not even thinking of all the name fixing :) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 22:39, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 1604??

Ummm, I think we need to change the beginning date to 1604, since it appears Dmitry [...] rode to Russia on June 1604 (from False Dmitry I). Also, see Talk:Truce of Deulino#date? for an issue regarding the date of the truce (1618 or 1619)? And I'd still appreciate comments on my above inquiry regarding battle places. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 14:12, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

This question is still valid. Please comment.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 13:28, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Warbox

I've taken the liberty of changing the battlebox to use the new warbox template. I've also removed the "unknown" and "various" entries from various fields (since this allows the warbox to remove unneeded rows); feel free to revert if this information is, for some reason, necessary. Kirill Lokshin 02:41, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Modern legacy

However due to the political climate of that time, some observers, especially in Poland, interpreted this festivity as having anti-Polish undertones

Political climate of what time? Should we rather say in "today's political climate"? The statement isn't clear. --Irpen 20:56, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

I think of the time when the holiday was invented. It's first celebrated this year. --Lysy (talk) 08:50, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Than it should have said "today's political climate" for clarity. However, this perception has nothing to do with reality. The main reason is that they were looking for some date in early november because people were used to Nov. 7 (October Revolution) dumped recently. --Irpen 16:55, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Hmm, but the Polish garrison left Moscow on November 7th exactly, so what's the point ? What actually happened on November 4th then ? --Lysy (talk) 19:09, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
PS. I've just briefly searched the Russian web for the commentaries, and one of the first articles that I've found was: "Поляки в Кремле ели мертвецов". Seems quite emotional for a title of the article about the new national праздник, don't you think ? :-( --Lysy (talk) 19:16, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Check this then.

"Cегодня в центре Москвы прошёл "Правый марш", организованный националистическими организациями... Участников "Правого марша" забросали наполненными водой презервативами... На первый взгляд, количество сотрудников милиции не уступало числу демонстрантов... Большинство участников митинга не смущало обилие фото и видеокамер. Некоторые не стеснялись своего участия в акции... Двенадцать человек были задержаны милицией".

Check also "Ссылки по теме" --Irpen 20:26, 5 November 2005 (UTC) .

For a review, check this link: http://lenta.ru/articles/2005/11/02/narodnoe/ "Новый красный день Что мы празднуем четвертого ноября"

Quotes:

было распространено обращение, в котором лидеры конфессий призвали установить новый государственный праздник - День национального единства. Была выбрана компромиссная дата, позволившая не перемещать заветный осенний выходной: 4 ноября. В обращении говорилось, что в этот день в 1612 году была освобождена Москва, и "патриотические настроения народа нашей страны, единение всех граждан, независимо от происхождения, веры и положения в обществе, сплочение и солидарность сыграли особую роль в судьбе России".

As you see, nothing about Poles. Read on and you will also find:

Нетрудно представить, на какие компромиссы пришлось пойти законодателям, чтобы выбрать в качестве нового государственного праздника 4 ноября. Во-первых, необходимо было сохранить осенний праздник и выходной день, а во-вторых, найти наименее спорную дату из возможных. Поскольку конфессиональная составляющая событий 1612 года не затрагивала ни иудеев, ни мусульман, ни, тем более, буддистов, то Межрелигиозный совет России поддержал эту дату. На пресс-конференции представителей трех главных религий России 2 ноября 2005 года митрополит Смоленский и Калининградский Кирилл отмел предположения, что праздник народного единения несет признаки полонофобии.
Центр празднования Дня национального единения оказался, между тем, не в Москве, а в Нижнем Новгороде. Именно там в 1611 году усилиями Минина и Пожарского были преодолены сословные разногласия и собрано единое войско для похода на Москву. То есть, в Нижнем празднуют отчасти свой собственный праздник.

I hope this is convinsing enough. --Irpen 20:38, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, I'm only happy if this is not polonophobic (funny word, by the way). I'm already quite upset by the political tension between Warsaw and Kremlin since the Orange Revolution and would be happy to have it over. Hopefully Putin will use the new government in Poland as the excuse to stop this policy. The question remains, what happened on November 4th if Poles left Kremlin on 7th ? --Lysy (talk) 21:13, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

I am not a historian, but the link to the very article I posted says in the very beginning: "4 ноября (26 октября по старому стилю) польский гарнизон, осажденный в Кремле, сдался ополчению Минина и Пожарского".
Maybe Poles surrendered on the 4th and left on the 7th. I don't know.

Russia obviously didn't want Nov 7 anymore. For the last years every novemebr 7th was spoiled by the fringe Communist demostrations, sometimes violent. OTOH, everyone wanted an early-November date. --Irpen 21:18, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

AFAIR they surrendered on 6th and left on 7th. But maybe Russian historians differ on this, I would not be surprised ;-) Whatever. Thanks for the explanations. --Lysy (talk) 21:42, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Actually, the holiday is partly a reaction to November 11, a Polish holiday with strong anti-Russian undertones. Some say that the idea of Polish agression against Soviet Russia was born on this day in 1917. --Ghirlandajo 08:47, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Ekhem, It was bolshevik Russia that invaded its neighbours... idea of Polish agression against Soviet Russia was born on this day in 1917 Did Bolshevik Russia held some of Polish lands taken in partitions perhaps ? --Molobo 11:44, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Actually, the holiday is partly a reaction to November 11, a Polish holiday with strong anti-Russian undertone

Polish independence is anti-Russian ? Nice. :)

--Molobo 11:46, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Hmm, first Irpen explained that the new Russian holiday is not polonophobic, now Ghirlandajo explains that it is. How confusing ... --Lysy (talk) 11:52, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] A question about the image

I believe my question should be addressed to Piotrus, who (if I'm not mistaken) submitted the picture of Avraamy Palitsyn defending the lavra. "Avraamy Palitsyn bravely defends..." is not the real name of this painting, you probably know that. Its name is Оборона Троице-Сергиевой Лавры, (The Defense of the Troitse-Sergiyeva Lavra). I'm asking because my sources tell me that Avraamy Palitsyn was in Moscow throughout the siege and never took part in the actual fighting itself. If I'm right, then the name of the painting as it is now is misleading and incorrect. What do you guys say? KNewman 03:53, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

This picture (Image:Miloradovich.jpg) was uploaded by User:Ghirlandajo. I hope our Russian editors can shine more light on this, as my sources are not up to this job. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 03:59, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
KNewman, you shouldn't confuse the title of the painting with the caption I provided. Having consulted the BSE, I admit my error, although I never called the painting "Avraamy Palitsyn bravely defends...", if you read carefully. You are welcome to write an article on Avraamy, for its been long overdue. --Ghirlandajo 08:44, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, Ghirlandajo, no offense. Just trying to establish the fact :). KNewman 12:34, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Related picture?

Hah, I have an image question myself :) Found a picture, but the related Polish page has no info on what, when, by whom. Context makes it likely that this is some event related to the fall of Polish garrison in Moscow. Can anybody give more data? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 03:59, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Seems to be a detail of this one. --Ghirlandajo 08:34, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
Tnx! --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 13:35, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

And as long as we are discussing pictures, any information on source/author of Image:Husaria pod Kluszynem.jpg would be appreciated. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 13:35, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Geographical question

I am wondering about the passage:

Lisowczycy broke contact with his forces, burned Bielów and Lichwin, took Pieremyszl, turned north, defeated Muscovite army at Rzew, turned to Kara Sea, then to Kaszyn, burned Torzek and heavy with loot returned to Poland without any further opposition from Muscovite forces.

Are you sure Kara Sea is correct? It is rather far away from the theatre of operations, beyond the Arctic Circle. Balcer 04:28, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Seconded. --Ghirlandajo 08:33, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
Should be towards Kara Sea - this should clarify the confusion, I hope. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 13:27, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
Let's say "towards the north", OK? The Kara Sea is irrelevant. --Ghirlandajo 13:46, 8 November 2005 (UTC)


[edit] New resources

Recently Google Print has made a number of books about Russian history available online, at least in parts, for free. Access to a few pages in each book is restricted in order to protect the book's copyright. Among the books available, there is:

A Short History of Russia's First Civil War: The Time of Troubles and the Founding of the Romanov Dynasty

published in 2004, as well as

Russia's First Civil War: The Time of Troubles and the Founding of the Romanov Dynasty

published in 2001, both written by Chester S L Dunning (I guess the first is an abridged version of the second).

Here is a link to a relevant search page: Google Print link.

This could be very useful to everyone working on improving this article. To access the text you need to have the (free) gmail account. The best thing about this service is that Google can search inside the book for any word you specify. Balcer 21:46, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Quick note: Norman Davies and his masterful God's Playground: A History of Poland is also available (in parts at least) on Google Print.


[edit] Name of the Pretender? and of the article

We have a problem with the name of one of the main characters in this story. I have seen 4 viable versions so far:

Which one is the most correct? Clearly the one used currently, Dmitriy, is the one not used by major English references. In my opinion, we should use Dmitri (or possibly Dmitry) as the simplest option. Any other suggestions? Balcer 05:07, 9 November 2005 (UTC)


I would slightly favor Dmitry. More importanly, we need to decide whether the current article name is an optimal one as opposed to a Russo-Polish War, for example. There are lively discussion at both FAC monination and at Portal:Russia/Russia-related_Wikipedia_notice_board#Polish_invasion_of_Russia. The fact that the M-word is viewed annoying for many of the Russian community, has to be considered in the name debate. Personally, I think that a good English name for that's time country is Muscovite Russia. So, since this is still Russia (even if Muscovite) the Russo-Polish war seems reasonable (as pointed out in the dicsusion, it is so called at Phillips & Axelrod Encyclopedia of Wars). OTOH, if it is called PMW in most of the English L historiography we should keep the name then. --Irpen 06:53, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
I see no particular problem with the term Muscovy. It is widely used in recently published scholarly works. Searching for Muscovy in Google Print, I get the following titles:
  • Modernizing Muscovy: Reform and Social Change in Seventeenth Century Russia (2004)
  • Muscovy and Sweden in the Thirty Years' War, 1630-1635 (1995)
Furthermore, the search returns 271 books in which the word is used. Keep in mind that the Google Print sevice has only started recently and they by no means yet have all the books in the English language indexed. I hope this demonstrates conclusively that the use of the word is not just a Polish invention, as some of the contributors to this discussion have suggested. Balcer 07:10, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
The question is how the war is called in the literature. One academic ref cited above uses Russo-Polish. Let's see what other refs use. --Irpen 08:00, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Many references describe the events in this conflict as occuring between the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and Muscovy. Hence Polish-Muscovite war would seem a logical name to use if we are focusing on that particular conflict as part of the complex set of events that made up the Time of Troubles. Balcer 08:18, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Other refs describe the events as occuring between Poland and Russia. See this article in "The Encyclopedia of World History. 2001". It uses "1609–18 Polish intervention in Russia". --Irpen 08:15, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Let me suggest then Muscovy and Sweden in the Thirty Years' War, 1630-1635 by B F Porshnev, published by Cambridge University Press in 1995. As the title suggests, this book uses Muscovy almost uniformly, practically on every single page.
Look, I am sure we will be able to find references to support the use of either Muscovy or Russia. As I said, there are dozens of recent historical books which use the term Muscovy to describe the Russian state during this period. The point is: which term is more accurate? Can you offer any arguments? Clearly the transition from Muscovy to Russian Empire was continuous and there was no sharp dividing point, though of course the Empire was officially proclaimed only in 1721, which is the date I would use. Balcer 08:40, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

I'll leave the correct spelling of Dmitri and Dmitriads to our Russian-speaking editors. As for the name of this war, I think the case is clear that there are several of them. Search through scholalry literature will surely be interesting, but at the moment I'd favour Muscovy because it is more descriptive then Russia in this case (i.e. consider the difference between links to Muscovy and Russia).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 16:36, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

At this point we have different versions mixing in the article, which is clearly confusing. I don't mind any of the above 4 versions, but we should be consistent. Balcer 18:13, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Just checked a Thirty Years' War article in EB. Quote:

Meanwhile the conflict widened, fueled by political ambitions of the various powers. Poland, having been drawn in as a Baltic power coveted by Sweden, pushed its own ambitions by attacking Russia and establishing a dictatorship in Moscow under Wladyslaw, Poland's future king. The Russo-Polish Peace of Polyanov in 1634 ended Poland's claim to the tsarist throne but freed Poland to resume hostilities against its Baltic archenemy, Sweden, which was now deeply embroiled in Germany.

In addition to the fact that these wars are considered related is worth adding to the article, which I did, please note the EB calls the peace treaty the followed Russo-Polish. We just have one more authoratitave reference book that uses Russo-Polish rather than Polish-Muscovite. --Irpen 19:02, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

As I said before, both (Russia and Muscovy) can be found in historical literature, and both can be used. The question is: which one is better? Could you state your reasons for preferring one over the other? Balcer 19:28, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
Both are used but note that we already have three reference books (including Columbia and Britannica) that are supposed to have analyzed the academic usage before choosing one term over the other. They chose to use Russo-Polish rather than Polish-Muscovite. Additional reason is that the using of Muscovy and Muscovite is viewed by many Russians as hostile. The latter issue by itself is not a sufficient reason if "PM" would have been a prevailing usage elsewhere. But it is not. --Irpen 19:54, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
Please, check very carefully before you make sweeping statements. Encyclopedia Britannica uses the term Muscovy very frequently when referring to this period.
Here is the beginning of the relevant section of the Russian History article:
History > From the beginnings to c. 1700 > Rurikid Muscovy > The Time of Troubles
The events of 1606–13 cannot be captured in a few words. Chaos gripped most of central Muscovy; Muscovite boyars, Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian Cossacks, and assorted mobs of adventurers and desperate citizens were among the chief actors. In May 1606 a small-scale revolt supported by popular indignation at the foolishly insulting behaviour of Dmitry and his Polish garrison… Balcer 20:26, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

I was talking about the name of the war and not the name of the country. I am aware that EB uses Muscovy too. it even has an article under this name. I checked google print. "The Polish Armies 1569-1696" by Richard Brezezinski also uses Russo-Polish War for this particular war[3].The search for Russo-Polish War in google print gives 744 pages (many of which are for other conflicts) but the search for Polish-Muscovy War gives zero counts in google print. --Irpen 21:46, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

These word games are getting tiresome. It appears there is no well established English name for that war. In particular, the specific, exact term Polish-Muscovite War is very rarely used and does not show up in searches, though there is no strong competing term that I have come across. On the other hand, there are dozens of highly respectable books which, when they discuss the events of this period, use the word Muscovy to describe Russia at the time. There are other books which simply use the word Russia. Given that, it seems to me we are free to choose Polish-Muscovite or Polish-Russian, of course choosing the term which is the most accurate. You have still not provided any reason why one is better than the other, except for stating that one name will be offensive to Russians. True or not, that is not a consideration when choosing a name in English Wikipedia. Balcer 22:14, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
It appears there is no well established English name for that war...
As I have shown above the Russo-Polish War seems to be rather established and I provided several references with this exact wording. I do not deny that the word Muscovy is sufficiently established for the country name However, I do not see any established usage of the Polish-Muscovite War and I see that there is an established usage for the Russo-Polish War. This is the reason why I think the latter term is better to use than the other. --Irpen 22:26, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
Except that most of the hits in this search and this search actually refer to the Polish-Soviet War of 1919-1921. How many specific cases did you find where the name your are proposing is used for specifically the (1605-1618) war? (what exact name are you proposing, anyway?). By well established, I meant having a name for the war which is universally used in dozens of English sources. Balcer 22:47, 11 November 2005 (UTC)


As I did not argue with the fact that most of the 700+ hits indeed referred to the PSW. I did not go through 700+ books but several other books in the list, in addition to the one I quoted above, use the term Russo-Polish War for what we in Wikipedia call Smolensk War (same historic time, hense supposedly similar terminology). And it is important that the use of Polish-Muscovy War could not be found at all. Could be that there is no established view in historiography to consider the 1605-18 events as one war (as the article says already) or many view a conflict broader and include Smolensk war too. Even if 1605-18 events are not established solidly in historiography as a one war, rather than a series of smaller wars or a part of a larger war, it's no reason to modify what this article is about. However, if we want to see it as a war, I suggest we use the title for which some usage is found, that is Russo-Polish War (1605-1618). Another title, a descriptive one, may be Polish intervention... or Polish Invasion of Russia (In line with Napoleon's Invasion of Russia and Mongol invasion of Rus). However, if this seems like a POV title to the Polish editors, I am fine with the "Russo-Polish War..." above. Speaking of POV titles sensitivities, we had a Massacre of Praga article for almost a year and it didn't seem a POV title for its authors and editors. OTOH, I must admit that there were no complaints when I raised the issue at talk and finally moved the article to a more neutral title. --Irpen 02:13, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Just so we are clear: how many references did you find that describe the 1605-1618 war as the Russo-Polish War, using precisely that name? A link to a source that uses that exact wording would be ideal. And incidentally, the Smolensk War occured 14 years after the end of the 1605-1618 war, so it was clearly a separate war. Just like the I World War is separate from II World War, though obviously they are strongly related. Balcer 03:01, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

As I said above, there aren't many sources that I found that treat the the events between exactly 1605 and 1618 as events of one war. Perhaps, this is because it is often viewed as a combination of several wars or a part of a bigger war. Among sources that do take it as a 1605-18 single war, we have already two cited that call it "Russo-Polish":

  1. Charles Phillips and Alan Axelrod, "Encyclopedia of wars"
  2. Richard Brezezinski "The Polish Armies 1569-1696"

Additionally "The Encyclopedia of World History. 2001". Uses "Polish intervention in Russia" I haven't found any other books that use exactly same time period to refer to a single war but I didn't go through 700+ entries of google print search (most indeed are about the 20th century PSW). However, I also found several sources that use "Russo-Polish war" for Smolensk War (same historic time, hence supposedly same terminology) and several that use this term for the later war that ended in 1667 (Treaty of Andrusovo). Do we have to go and count for exact numbers and go through 700+ search results? Is Russo-Polish was disagreeable for any reason? On the side note, I found only one mention of the term "Polish-Muscovite War" but it was also in relation to a different war (1654-1667). I can post links if necessary. --Irpen 03:48, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

I would still say that two references is a very low number, and it just shows that the name for this war is not well established in Western historiography. Furthermore, our discussions have shown that many reputable references in the English language use the term Muscovy to describe Russia of that time. It is clear to me then that we have the freedom to choose the name we are going to use. I personally have no particular preference, though since I do not see anyting offensive in the word Muscovy, I would prefer Polish-Muscovite as it would nicely distinguish this particular war from many later wars known as Russo-Polish in English-language publications. Still, if Piotrus has no objections to changing the name, then I will not object either. Balcer 07:50, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

I stated my reasons above. While I still think Muscovy/Muscovite is more descriptive, I won't object if the Russian editors want to use Russia instead of Muscovy. But - wouldn't this logically require us to change all intext references to Russia as well? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 07:10, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

How will the name change affect the FAC voting? Balcer 07:50, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

The article have just became an FA, does it mean that my proposal for name change to Russo-Polish War (1605-1618) or to Polish invasion of Russia (1605-1618) are thrown out? I haven't seen anyone really objecting to the first one. Or are there objections? --Irpen 07:30, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Would like to repeat the question above. --Irpen 03:53, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
You are correct that Google Print for [ http://books.google.com/books?q=Polish-Muscovy+War&btnG=Search+Books&hl=en Polish-Muscovy War] yelds 0 results, and so should be changed. What are pros and cons of the alternatives? Btw, please note that regarding the naming I have asked (twice) a question myself regarding the date (shouldn't it be 1604-1618)?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 03:07, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
If anything, I would change it to Polish-Muscovite War as that's the grammatically correct version of the adjective. Polish-Russian War seems factually incorrect from any perspective but the modern Russian as Poland was waging a war against only one of Russias, the Muscovite one. Halibutt 02:56, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Relation with 30 yr war

Furthermore, if you read carefully the quote you included, it's clear that it was the Smolensk War which was closely related to the Thirty Years War. But this war was not. After all, it was over before the Thirty Years War began. Besides, I do not think this is important enough to mention in the lead. Balcer 19:39, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

I did not say that it was part of the war. I said it is related because although the was is conventionally considered to have started in 1618, some struggles that that lead to it started years earlier. Also, you have reverted wholesale including the corrections I added to the previous sentence. --Irpen 19:58, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
The point is that in its first years the Thirty Years War was essentially just a rebellion in Bohemia and it was localized there. It was not yet related to the Polish-Muscovite conflict, except of course in the sense that all historical events in Europe occuring at that time were to some extent related. If you want to mention that relation in the lead, you really should provide some solid reasons. The passage you quoted does not provide those reasons. Balcer 20:04, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
Related to the time period does not mean related (closely) to another war. Most of what I have read cleary states that Commonwealth was not involved with the TYW (exception being Sigismund privately orderning Lisowczycy to the aid of Habsburgs), and I have yet to see a single reference to Muscovy involvement in this war. I guess the discussion or lack of therefore may make an interesting paragraph (in the name section, perhaps?) but not in the lead. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 20:17, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
It was in the name section! Never I added that to the lead. Go check[4]. And Balcer when reverting me didn't even bother to keep other small changes in the section I made like the word "conflict" was twice in the same sentence and name in cyrillic I removed as unnecessary. --Irpen 20:26, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
You are right of course, it was in the name section. My mistake. Balcer 20:33, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Is it OK then to have it in the name section? You can rephrase my text if you like. --Irpen 20:47, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

In my opinion, it is not necessary to bring the Thirty Years War into the article. It will only confuse readers. The Thirty Years War only started to seriously affect the Sweden/Poland/Russia diplomatic triangle (so to speak) after Sweden entered the war in Germany in about 1630, having made peace with Poland in 1629. That was 12 years after 1618. If you want to mention Thirty Years War, please give some reasons for making the connection. Balcer 20:57, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Siege of Bely

Why is the siege of Bely listed in the Polish-Russian War of 1605-1618? AFAIK, it happened during the Smolensk War in 1634... Was it sieged twice? Please, clarify. One more thing. Why is it called Bely? I think it was called Belaya (Белая крепость, or White fortress) and later renamed to Bely (Белый). And why are there different dates above and under the map (1609 and 1605)? KNewman 22:36, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

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[edit] Article's title

I would like to raise the issue of moving this mage to the Polish invasion of Russia (1605-1618). The move could be done without any admin involvement and does not require a WP:RM listing but I would like to find the stand of the editors involved in the article before imposing the name on the community by making a move. At the same time let's try to avoid the WP:RM listing unless necessary and see whether the involved editors can agree.

The details of this discussion are at Talk:Polish September Campaign#Requested move. Basically, the issue, as I see it, is whether for the events where the invading party is clear it's OK to use the "invasion" in the article's titles. As my frequent opponent Halibutt said at the referenced talk page, he disputes the usage of the term "invasion" "only in the cases where it was absolutely not clear who "invaded". Since there is a complete historic clarity on who invaded whom in this particular case, please express your opinion whether the proposed article's move would be a good idea. If you did not vote at Talk:Polish September Campaign#Requested move yet, please consider reading and voting on that related issue as well. A related discussion is also at Talk:Kiev Offensive#Article's title.

The clarity of who is an invader he is such that even two most authoritative English language encyclopedias use the term in their article as follows:

  • "[...]Sigismund, changing his mind, demanded direct personal control of Russia and continued the Polish invasion (autumn 1610). This finally stimulated the Russians to rally and unite against the invader." (from: "Troubles, Time of." Encyclopædia Britannica)
  • "During the “Time of Troubles” (1598–1613), [Pozharsky] fought against the Poles, who, taking advantage of unstable political conditions, had invaded Russia. In 1611 he took command of a national militia formed on the initiative of the merchant Kuzma Minin of Nizhny Novgorod. With his improvised army he marched on Moscow (1612) and drove out the Poles, ending the effort of King Sigismund III to subjugate Russia." (Pozharski, Dmitri Mikhailovich, Prince", Columbia Encyclopedia)

Since both encyclpedia are clear about it, this is as referenced as anything can possibly be. --Irpen 03:37, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, without touching on what's happening on the other articles, I don't think that name would really be accurate for the article's scope. Something like Polish invasion of Russia (1609-1612) might have worked (and so might re-titling one or more of the appropriate sections here); but the scope of the article is somewhat broader than this. The 1605–06 period, for example, would be better described as (being pedantic) Polish intervention in Russia (1605-1606) and the 1612–17 period isn't really defined by a Polish invasion but by a Swedish one (along with some other general nastiness). Thus, I don't think that naming the entire article as "Invasion"—Polish or otherwise—would be an improvement.
Having said that, I do wonder if the current name is really an accurate one in English; given the events described, my gut instinct would be to call it "Polish-Muscovite Wars (1605-1618)" (or something of the sort), as this seems to be multiple (if contiguous) conflicts. Do we have any good sources for what this should be called? Kirill Lokshin 03:54, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Kirill, I researched the issue and there is some info at #Name of the Pretender? and of the article above. --Irpen 03:58, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
(Disclaimer: I have not read the works referenced in this article, and have only a passing knowledge of these events):
I'm beginning to wonder whether it's really the best arrangement to have a separate article on the Ingrian War. Going by what's available in these articles, I would have merged that here and presented the conflict as a period of Russian-Polish-Swedish warfare going from 1605 to 1618 (with a succeeding phase of Polish-Swedish warfare from 1617 to 1628?). That would also, incidentally, open up a wide variety of new naming choices (things like "Polish-Swedish [intervention in/invasion of] Russia (1605-1618)", for example). Is there some fundamental reason why the Polish and Swedish aspects of this conflict need to be split? Kirill Lokshin 04:13, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Krill that the early part of the war was hardly an invasion - it was more like unofficial intervention of some mercenaries. Still, as long as we are discussing name, please check #1604?? - there is the issue of whether this war (or whatever) begun in 1605 or 1604.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  08:20, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

OK, until we decide on the invasion in the title (it seems to me that invasions for the wars are only allowed by some editors if it is follow by "...of Poland"), I suggest to remove at least a controversial word from the title and rename it to Polish–Russian War (1605–1618) or Russo-Polish War (1605-1618)), It has been explained to Piotrus and others several times, why the M.. word for the post-Principality of Moscow time is misleading and, due to its political flavor, loaded and offensive. One of the two is the red link, the other is a redirect but with the earth unsalted, so we can move it either way without the admin intervention. --Irpen 22:17, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Could you explain to us all what's wrong with the M. word? I admit I forgot when it was explained to me - I do remember asking about it at Portal:Russia some time ago but I don't recall receiving any useful explanation. As far as naming goes, I would like to raise the issue discussed at #1604?? above that among other problems, the starting year may be in need of correction (from 1605 to 1604).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  03:53, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

See this very page past discussions as well as an answer to your question which seems you have not bothered to read. ALso check this Eb article. It is not too long. --Irpen 04:10, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Considering that I was the last person to post on that page, I'd rather say that it is you who have not bothered to read it; as for Britannica, it's only part of the non-free article, the largest version I could find truncates around the 15th century without mentioning anything about when the period discussed ends.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  04:48, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Piotrus, your question was answered and by the last entry you merely repeated it. The EB's article says: "Muscovy became a distinct principality during the second half of the 13th century under the rule of Daniel..." and end with "By the end of Ivan's [III] reign [1505], the prince of Moscow was, in fact, the ruler of Russia proper". Also, and it has been told you before as well, Ivan IV, and all the Russian rulers afterwards, was crowned the Russian Tzar not the Grand Prince of Moscow. --Irpen 05:09, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Leaving aside various inconsistencies in the sources you mention, we have, at best (or worst :>) a wars that most certainly begun as the Lithuanian-Muscovite wars, and that according to some sources would be ending as Lithuanian-Polish-Russian wars. As the name applied to them in literature is Lithuanian or Muscovite (unless you can show its reffered to as Russo-something?), I still think that either Muscovite or Lithuanian-Muscovite is the best solution.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  05:24, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I am talking about this article here. Not the Lithuanian wars for now. --Irpen 05:28, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

...which redirects here...your point being?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  15:09, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Please do not fantasize. Lithuanian wars do not redirect here. --Irpen 18:14, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
The claim that the word Muscovy is somehow offensive really puzzles me. If that is the case, how come there is no outcry against books with titles like:
  • Muscovy and Sweden in the Thirty Years' War 1630-1635, Cambridge University Press, 1995
  • Modernizing Muscovy: Reform and Social Change in Seventeenth Century Russia, Routledge (UK), 2004
and hundreds of recent books (published after 1990) containing the word Muscovy and Muscovite.
If anyone wants to make a case for "Russo-" vs "Muscovite-", fine with me, but claiming that one is somehow "insulting" is simply cheap and not credible.
Anyway, as the examples I just cited show, in Western historiography Muscovy is simply one of the widely used terms to describe the Russian state of that time, and it has no negative connotations. Why can't we just accept that, and move away from these fruitless discussions? Balcer 06:21, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

The issue has been discussed ad nauseum on the Polish noticeboard, on the Russian noticeboard (last month) and on numerous talk pages. I am not going to feed the trolling and raise the issue again. If you want to discuss the same issue over and over again, until you received a POV result you favour, please go to Talk:Jogaila. --Ghirla -трёп- 16:25, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

No satisfactory answer has been given to support your POV in the one brief discussion at the Russian noticeboard; it would be appreciated if instead of trying to argue otherwise or skirting the issue somebody would finally give us such an answer.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  16:31, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
It has been explained to you ad naseum indeed, including at your talk. It has also been noted that both EB and Columbia note that the time of Muscoivy ended by the 16th century, when the Moscow rulers became rulers of the Russian proper. Ivan III was the last one to be enthroned as the Grand Prince of Moscow. Ivan IV and all after him were enthrones as the Russian Tzars. I am sorry that historic truth seems to you an unsatisfactory answer but so it was. --Irpen 18:14, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Diffs would be nice to back up your claims of 'ad naseum'; the last time I checked Columbia it noted 'half of the 16th century', not 'by 16th century' ([5]) - your arguments are not only very selective (you ignore vast body of work in English historiography that uses that term in 16th and 17th century, as Balcer pointed out above) but even misinterpret sources like Columbia (not for the first time, re: our discussion about starting date of the PSW). I am afraid you will have to do better than that to convince anybody of your point.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  18:22, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Piotrus, I brought this up to you at least 5 times. I can't believe you "forgot" and your calls for diffs is just WP:DFTT#Pestering, a "continual questions with obvious or easy-to-find answers". In any case, Eb sites 1505, Columbia (mid-16th century), this article is about 17th century, so what's your problem? --Irpen 18:47, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I think some editors here simply prefer using pejorative terms for Russians, such as ruskis, moskali, etc. I've seen plenty of racism in the project. You may talk with them for as long as you like but their attitude won't change. --Ghirla -трёп- 19:55, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Others, similarly, accuse anybody who disagrees (but particularly Polish editors) with them of nationalism, trolling and spreading propaganda. Indeed, it is a saddening behaviour which shows no signs of change, neither.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  20:22, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
No, you didn't, and your failure to provide diffs only underscores your faulty memory (I am sure you would not be misleading us on purpose). As for the title, there are many references to the usage of Muscovy in 17th century, books provided by Balcer, which you ignore, are just one of many available refs. I am afraid it is your arguments which are more alike WP:DFTT#Pestering than you think.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  19:41, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

OK, Piotrus, I generally make it a habit to not feed the Pestering but I made several exceptions for you in the past and I will make one more. How many diffs you want? 3? 5? 7? I can do any of this. --Irpen 20:27, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

If you say 7, why not :) Please provide 7 examples of where you have used references (to which nobody presented contrary ones) that 1) Muscovy is not used in 16/17th century and 2) it's offensive. Please use examples from before our discussion in the past day or so. Thank you,-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  20:59, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Piotrus, I can and will do it but I will note that you decided to waste my time on this meaningless work. I deliberately offered some lower numbers as an alternative, hoping that your goal is not to force me to waste time on digging diffs from months ago. Will be back. --Irpen 21:03, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Irpen: one would usually be enough ususually but since you accuse me of ignoring your comments 'ad naseum' and WP:DFTT#Pestering, either apologize or prove your accusation.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  21:10, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
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