Talk:Pogrom

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[edit] Old talk

I don't think pogrom in Russian means only violence against Jews. There are now pogroms of other nationalities, for example 'Aziks'. And it's meaning is absolutely clear: 'pogrom' = 'to, chto gromjat'. Perhaps at some period, 100 years or more ago, pogroms were primarily or almost exclusively against Jews, and they were of special violence. And by Ochrana you mean Ochranka --Ilya 21:04, 17 Dec 2003 (UTC)

The following piece cut from the article.

  • 19-22 Aug 1991 in the Crown Heights section of Brooklyn, New York. The pogrom began on August 19 when a Hasidic Jewish motorist accidentally struck and killed Gavin Cato, a seven-year-old African American boy. In revenge, an angry mob of black youths began assaulting Jews in the neighborhood, the population of which was about evenly divided between blacks and mostly Hasidic Jews; in one such attack, Yankel Rosenbaum, a 29-year-old rabbinical student visiting from Australia, was stabbed to death, and an undetermined number of Jews were seriously injured as the assaults continued for four consecutive nights (a non-Jewish motorist who had apparently gotten lost in the neighborhood, Anthony Graziosi, was also fatally attacked, presumably because he had a full beard and was wearing dark clothing and was thus mistaken for a Hasidic Jew).

This piece belongs to race riot article. Pogrom is violence by majority against minority, not simply one nationals against other nationals.

By the way, the topic of relations between African Americans and Jews can fill a whole new article. You might want to start one. Mikkalai 18:50, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I disagree, and here's why: It's only a "race riot" if both sides are equally the aggressors; in this situation that was definitely NOT the case because the Hasidic Jews didn't go marauding through the neighborhood beating up any blacks they encountered. The whole thing was totally one-sided - blacks attacking Jews merely because they were Jews. Therefore what happened in Crown Heights was indeed a pogrom - it was widely reported as such in the New York City newspapers, and during his successful, second campaign for mayor in 1993 Rudolph Giuliani made constant references to "the Crown Heights pogrom." TOttenville8 03:33, 15 Feb 2004 (EST)

I wasn't there, you may be right. Nevertheless such a big piece does not belong here IMO. I'd suggest to start an article Anti-Semitism in the USA (see Anti-Semitism) for examples of such articles, put the paragraph there as a section and refer it from here. OK, I'll do it myself. Mikkalai 11:00, 15 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Humus Sapiens reworded my poor text:

There is another, less known consequence of pogroms. During their two-thousand-year history of wandering the only defence of Jews was to fly. The second Kishinev pogrom have seen an organization of Jewish self-defence, which effectively stopped the pogromists in certain areas.
into
The organization of Jewish self-defence have stopped the pogromists in certain areas during the second Kishinev pogrom.

...with a caustic remak that Jews cannot fly :-) Sorry, my bad. I intended to write "defence of Jews was flight", but it was late night... The edit lost an idea that it was the FIRST notable resistance of Jews in modern times. And some even speculate that this self-defence is the roots of the initial strentgh of Israel. I'd like to ask to restore this somehow, with better English. If it was ot the first resistance, it would be good to mention the earlier ones. Mikkalai 08:01, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Не журись Mikkalai :), it was intended to be humorous, not caustic. Hope you haven't found that offensive. I also frequently do my edits at night and I appreciate when someone improves them. Here is why I removed the phrase:

I've added 1664 Lvov to History of anti-Semitism, thanks. Humus sapiens 02:12, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Use of the words "denotes" and "denote" in consecutive sentences denotes someone in need of a thesaurus.

It should be interesting to note that the pogroms of 1903-1906 claimed more non-jewish than they did jewish lives, so they were, at least in the larger settlements, much more akin to riots (actually, battles, in which both sides could attack and either side could win) than to earlier pogroms of the 1880s, where Jewish property was targeted, but only 2 Jews lost their lives, among with 19 peasants that were shot by GOVERNMENT TROOPS TRYING TO DEFEND THE JEWS. There was a loophole in the Imperial legal system that, until 1882, there was no punishment for such violent attacks on property and people, and, until 1882, participants in such acts could only be fined or imprisoned shortly - it fell under the "drunken breaching of peace". In 1882 the loophole was closed. While there certainly were anti-semites in the Imperial government, and while some policies of it were anti-semitic (like the univercity quotas ), there is no concrete evidence that the Imperial government was interested in those attacks, while there is much evidence that the Imperial government tried to stop and prevent such tragedies from occuring. Unfortunately, due to centuries of information warfare against Russia, by default Russia usually gets a negative stereotype; that distorts facts and makes understanding the historical realities extremely hard, if not impossible. With respect, Ko Soi IX 14:24, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Black Death mentions some pogroms. Should we mention them here ? (even though they occurred long before the term "pogrom" was imported into English).

The article is about the term and its history of usage, not about violence against Jews. So, you don't need to list all cases throughout the history, starting from Pharaoh times. IMO the existing link History of anti-Semitism pretty much covers it. Mikkalai 02:03, 24 May 2005 (UTC)


I think it would improve the article's quality if you mentioned more pogroms that weren't against Jews. You spend a whole section on Jews but I think it would improve the article's depth if you expand on some other groups or go more in depth on some specific pogroms. There is no other examples of older pogroms, just modern ones and Jews.

[edit] Why Kishinev and Odessa pogroms were not pogroms.

A pogrom (from Russian: "??????" (meaning "wreaking of havoc") is a massive violent attack on a MINORITY people.

Odessa: According to 1897 census (http://demoscope.ru/weekly/ssp/rus_rel_97.php?reg=73)

total population of Odessa - 403815 Russian Orthodox - 225869 (56%) Jews - 138935 (34%) Roman Catholics - 24219 (6%) Lutherans - 8777 (2%)

Members of the Russian Orhodox Church are divided in several ethnical groups (Greeks, Bessarabians, Ukrainians and other), so they are not a majority. Thus, Jews were the largest ethnic group in Odessa. A pogrom is attack against a minority people. So Odessa "Pogroms" were not Pogroms

Kishinev Total population of cities in Bessarabian Guberniya - 293332 Russian Orhodox - 162177 (55%) Jews - 109655 (37%) Roman Catholics - 7244 (5%) mel gibson (1) 0% :0)*

Members of the Russian Orhodox Church are divided in several ethnic groups. Again "Kishinev pogrom" doesn't fit into the definition of pogrom.


I am removing passages about Odessa and Kishinev Pogroms --DonaldDuck 02:29, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

(The "mel gibson" reference above, inserted from IP address "82.40.139.168", is not necessarily the same person as "DonaldDuck". --Davidrei 17:48, 25 September 2006 (UTC))

And I am restoring it on the grounds that the Jews constituted a minority in the Russian Empire. You arbitrary decision to pick a town - why not a street or a block? - is baffling (and I assume good faith). These two are classic examples of pogroms. ←Humus sapiens←Talk 02:44, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Pogrom is a local, city-scale event, rioters don't move from one town to another, so decision to pick a town is correct. We have two options - 1) removing passages about Kishinev and Odessa pogroms.

2) changing definition of pogrom --DonaldDuck 02:58, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Wow, Donaldduck, that is a pretty crazy assertion, leaving aside the debunking that Humus gave you above. The Kishinev Pogrom was called a pogrom by everyone from Tolstoy to the New York Times in 1903. It is the example of a pogrom, it, and the attacks of the 1880s, defined the term. Only later was it used to generally mean an attack on minorities, the term originally referred to violent riots against the Jews in Eastern Europe. You are getting your casuality wrong. Why on earth would you want to remove these examples? Cite sources that support you. --Goodoldpolonius2 03:01, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Sources - 1897 census. It shows that jews were not a minority but a largest ethnic group. (http://demoscope.ru/weekly/ssp/rus_rel_97.php?reg=73). So we must either remove passages about Kishinev and Odessa "pogroms" or change definition of pogrom from "attack on the minority" to something like "race riots" or "ethnical conflicts".--DonaldDuck

DonaldDuck, this doesn't say anything about the Kishinev Pogrom not being called a pogrom, it is merely a population listing, the same one you gave before. Even assuming that you are right, and that Jews represented a plurality (they were never a majority) among the ethnic groups, this does not change anything about the Kishinev Pogrom being a pogrom. Your argument is spurious:

  • If you want to split hairs (which I guess you do) the Jews were a minority, they did not represent 50%+
  • Your casuality is confused, the word "pogrom" was coined as a result of the pogroms in Odessa, Kishinev, and elsewhere - from there the definition spread
  • The article says "minority people," the Jews were definitely the minority people in Imperial Russia, arguing otherwise is like saying that because the rioters entered a Jewish neighborhood, it wasn't a pogrom. The term minority, when applied to population, is correct in this case -- see minority. You are just wrong here.
  • EVERYONE calls Kishinev a pogrom, you have no evidence of the contrary. Provide this or stop doing original research.
  • Outside of everything else, your edit was to eliminate almost all of the information about pogroms in Russia, all of it sourced and well-researched -- including pogroms like Bialystock and Siedlce. That is not a constructive way to operate, especially if your concern is the accuracy of the word "minority" in the description.

--Goodoldpolonius2 03:20, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Kishinev Pogrom is being called a pogrom, but it does not fit into the definition of pogrom. My proposition is to change the definition of pogrom. (a) and (c) I showed that there were no majority, and Jews represented a plurality, so they are clearly not "minority people" (b) Yes, the word was coined as a result of the pogroms in Odessa, Kishinev, but i have shown statistical data proving that there is widespread misconception of Odessa and Kishinev Pogroms as "violent attacks against the minority". So we should change either definition of pogroms or remove passages about Odessa and Kishinev
"... edit was to eliminate almost all of the information about pogroms in Russia, all of it sourced and well-researched -- including pogroms like Bialystock and Siedlce. That is not a constructive way to operate, especially if your concern is the accuracy of the word "minority" in the description." Bialystock and Siedlce are not in Russia but in Poland. The subsection of the article is called Pogroms in Russia
Kishinev Pogrom is being called a pogrom, but it does not fit into the definition of pogrom. My proposition is to change the definition of pogrom. (a) and (c) I showed that there were no majority, and Jews represented a plurality, so they are clearly not "minority people" (b) Yes, the word was coined as a result of the pogroms in Odessa, Kishinev, but i have shown statistical data proving that there is widespread misconception of Odessa and Kishinev Pogroms as "violent attacks against the minority". So we should change either definition of pogroms or remove passages about Odessa and Kishinev (unsigned by DonaldDuck)
Your proposal may have been to change the definition, but your action was to delete most of the article, so I am not particularly impressed by your approach to this manufactured problem. Jews were a minority in the Russian Empire, which is how minorities are usually defined (again, see minority) -- its like arguing that African Americans aren't a minority because they make up a majority in parts of Harlem. Besides, the first sentence says "A pogrom (from Russian: "погром" (meaning "wreaking of havoc") is a massive violent attack on a minority people with simultaneous destruction of their environment (homes, businesses, religious centers). The term has historically been used to denote massive acts of violence, either spontaneous or premeditated, against Jews, but has been applied to similar incidents against other minority groups." This is clear about the historical use with regards to Jews and mentions "minority people", as opposed to your bizarre "minority in the city and/or neighborhood." Besides, you have yet to provide a single source showing support for your views, beyond your own original research. Bialystock and Siedlce were part of Russia during the pogroms. I think this discussion is over unless you can somehow explain the hundreds of links to the Kishinev Pogrom, etc. --Goodoldpolonius2 03:53, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"your action was to delete most of the article" - yes, I have deleted small part of the article. Until the definition of porgom is not corrected, this part is misleading people. "its like arguing that African Americans aren't a minority because they make up a majority in parts of Harlem." Well, African Americans constitute a majority in certain parts of Harlem, aren't they? "Bialystock and Siedlce were part of Russia during the pogroms." - it will be correct to write "Polish parts of Russian Empire" or "Polish-populated parts of Russian Empire". "bizarre "minority in the city and/or neighborhood."" Pogroms were local, city-scale events, data for city population is just OK. Besides this I did not write about "neighborhood". Don't misreport my arguments.--DonaldDuck 04:18, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
DonaldDuck, you did not delete a small part of the article, you deleted almost the entire section about Russia, talking about every pogrom from 1881 on and quoting multiple sources including the New York Times by claiming it was misleading because Jews may not have been a minority in Odessa or Kishinev. This action alone, plus your continual series of new objections to everything in the article about Russia, lead me to believe that you are not working in good faith. Obviously pogroms were not simply local events, the fact that there were 166 pogroms in Russia from 1881-1883, and hundreds more in the 1900s, all against the Jewish minority in Russia and many with tacit or overt support from the Russian government, should be more than enough evidence. Either provide sources supporting your view explicitly -- saying Kishinev or Odessa were not pogroms -- or stop with your original research. --Goodoldpolonius2 04:32, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)


BTW, there were plenty of cases when rioters moved from one town to another, or state police joining them. ←Humus sapiens←Talk 03:04, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
You must support this by citing orders given to police. Police never does anything without orders. (unsigned by DonaldDuck)

Your arguments were rebuffed above. Good bye. ←Humus sapiens←Talk 03:32, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Minority

I removed the word. It creped here relatively recently. The word "minority" is accidental and irrelevant to the definition. For example, pogroms of Caucasians in Moscow are pogroms of people "on a business trip", so to say. It would strange to classify them as minority. Also, about vporgoms of chinese merchants in Siberia it is difficult to describe chinese as "minority": they are global majority. mikka (t) 04:34, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I think we may be having some translation issues. Minority group in common usage means an ethnic group that is not the majority in a nation or state, not world majority or city majority (Chinese are also not a global majority, with about 1/6 of the world population). It is not limited to simple mathematical minorities, the definition by Schaefer (1993) from Dayton Law School states, in part, that a minority group is:
  • A subordinate group whose members have significantly less control or power over their lives than members of a dominant or majority group
  • Not limited to mathematical minority: example women, Blacks in South Africa, Blacks in Mississippi and South Carolina in the 1920's
  • Interchangeable with subordinate group
As far as I know, no pogrom has ever been targeted against the majority ethnic group in a country, but we can leave that out if it is causing so much confusion, despite it being correct- and I appreciate your reasonable approach, mikkalai. The important part is that it is not an attack on any group of people, but people of a particular ethnic group -- historically Jews, but recently Chinese, Caucasians, etc. That is why pogroms are not the same things as riots. I did some minor fixes to the definition in line with this. --Goodoldpolonius2 04:44, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Again: that they are minority is coincidental. While I admit that I added the chinese for fun only, the example with caucasians does demonstrate my point: they were targeted not because they are a kind of hated "minority"; they are targeted as merchants perceived as unjustly profiteering on Russians. As for pogroms against majority, then, if you think hard, you will definitely find a couple in Africa (if you want to stick to the formal definition of "minority" in a country). mikka (t) 05:35, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Thank you. The contradiction is basically resolved.--DonaldDuck 04:54, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Note Pogroms at the markets in Moscow have been directed not against temporary merchans but mostly against the ethnically Caucassian Moscow residents who live in Moscow for years (Please see russian language link at caucasophobia)
Sure, against Mikael Tariverdiev, Nona Gaprindashvili, Grigory Chkhartishvili and many others. This is bullshit. Russians always respected respectable people and did not feel any indiscriminate dark envy towards them. They loved Georgian music, appreciated georgian musical skills, georgian film, elaborate Georgian toast speeches. Even georgians perceived rich was a matter of respect. Russian jokes about Georgians are not of hateful nature.
Why don't Caucasian elders put some blame onto their sons? Unfortunately, according to the russian proverb, "shit always floats on the surface", and not the best of immigrants are in the Russian eye now. In my times, Armenian unofficial construction brigades (shabashniki) were highly welcome in Russian/Belarussian countryside, for their fast and quality work. I don't think other smart Armenians, who sell "burnt" "Armenian coignac" must expect respect. mikka (t) 19:28, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] First pogrom

I'm no expert on the subject, but can anyone tell me why 1821 is given as the date of the first pogrom? They've been going on for centuries, the York pogrom of 1190 for example http://www.bbc.co.uk/legacies/immig_emig/england/north_yorkshire/article_1.shtml

Good point. Actually, much earlier pogroms may be found in Bible, you know. I think the issue here is the term and its usage. mikka (t) 17:16, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
I fixed the intro to make it a bit clearer. Pogrom was a new coinage in the 19th century to refer to the violent riots aimed specifically at Jews in Tsarist Russia, it is now used to refer to all such attacks. When we refer to the "First Pogrom" we mean the first of the series of violent attacks aimed at Jews in Russia, that reached epidemic proportions in 1881-1883, 1903-1905, and 1917-1919. --Goodoldpolonius2 17:40, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Non-Germans

That is just blatant relativization, as their complicity is still a matter of discussion, hence the more appealing neutral wording. Ksenon 05:06, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

The Iasi pogroms, Lviv pogroms, and Kovno pogroms, the deadliest of the war, were clearly done by non-Germans. Occupying Nazi forces encouraged pogroms before their arrival (see the Jager report) but used much more direct methods against Jewish populations themselves. As for Jedwabne, both Gross and IPN found little evidence of German involvement, there may have been German police officers there, but there is no evidence that they assisted in the pogrom. I don't object to playing with the wording around Jedwabne, but your insertion of "German occupied territory" wasn't right, since neither Iasi nor Kovno were occupied. Similarly, what is the justification for removing the Sikh pogroms? They are referred to that way by many sources: See, for example, Globalizations and Social Movements by John A Guidry, Michael D Kennedy, Mayer N Zald, University of Michigan Press. --Goodoldpolonius2 05:17, 23 February 2006 (UTC)


So why the heavy emphasis with weasel words (perhaps most well-known, etc.)? Did my edit not neutralize a heavily POVish sentence? There is a lot of room for discussion here, so how about a more neutral version of the intro? And why 2 external links specifically directed to Jedwabne when it is already covered in the article? Ksenon 09:50, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] My edits

Removed the "Outside Russia" subchapter name that was disputed by Ben-Velvel but readded some useful information. Corrected factual errors. Added many wikilinks and soem fact tags in relation to the numbers and exact dsescriptions of the Holocaust pogroms as such numbers are quite frequently inflated or deflated purposefully or anyhow changed and that might go unnoticed so the sources are always good (I remember seeing quite different numbers elsewhere ias for some of the pogroms listed here). Changed the number of the Jews killed in Iasi massacre to the one available in the Wikipedia article of that massacre. By the way, not every attack, massacre and such is necessarily a pogrom. Burann 23:01, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed offensive (and POV) remarks

I have deleted the sentence "Pogroms against the Jews are something that should be highly commended". I hope it's not necessary to justify this deletion. RolandR 12:29, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Just a minor point, by deleting the whole sentence rather than checking what the previous version of the title was, you actually lost a section heading "Pogroms against the Jews". As it happened I did a revert to the previous good version of the article at virtually the same time which had the effect of both removing the offensive text, and restoring the section heading. David Underdown 12:46, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Sorry about that; I was so angry at the comment that I didn't pause to consider the knock-on effect of deleting the whole sentence. Is there any way to go through the history and see who added the comment, and when? RolandR 14:53, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
If you click on the history link at the top of the article page, you can select versions of the article to compare, and that will show the differences (known as a diff) between the two. To revert to a previous version, click on it in the history list, and then click edit. Then save without making any changes and that earlier version will be restored as the current article version. See WP:REVERT for a fuller explanation. David Underdown 15:07, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I know that. But in a long article, it could mean looking through scores of links to find the relevant one. As it happens, in this case I caught the change within fifteen minutes; the culprit was an anonymous user at the IP 86.131.158.117, who at the same time posted gratuitous comments on the articles on America and Israel. RolandR 15:51, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
That's more or less how I caught it too, I have the Israel article on my Watchlist, checked the change to that article, reverted it, chekced the user's contributions and straightened out the other ones. Actually on the contribution list, if the revision made by that user is the current one, it will have (top) next to it, so you can be sure you don't need to go any further back. Also once you've gone into a diff , you can click on the arrows at the top to move back one revision at a time. Anonymous IPs are often the ones to be most wary about, so you can always compare the last version by a named editor with the current one, and see if there are any other "good" changes along the way. Bear in mind there are several people (and a few bots) who check the recent changes and revert obvious vandlism. Something like this article with its Jewish associations is a fairly obvious target for mindless vandalism, and so is likely to be checked. Most vandlaism on Wikipedia gets reverted within 5 mins I beleive. David Underdown 10:20, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia's entry on Tragic Week does not link to Argentina's pogrom.

[edit] Tragic

Wikipedia's entry on Tragic Week does not link to Argentina's pogrom.

[edit] Jedwabne

"The deadliest pogroms during the Holocaust occurred at the hands of non-Germans, for example the Jedwabne pogrom of 1941"

Why the Jedwabne pogrom is an example? Why not Kaunas, Lwów, Iasi (and many, many other Romanian ones)? If it isn't a bias - what is it? Xx236 06:37, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

The original version was "Particularly well-known and relatively well-documented was the Jedwabne pogrom of 1941", which is true - the Jedwabne pogrom has been studied before many others. But the situation has changed since 2002.

Xx236 06:42, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

"nationalists allegedly organized two large pogroms in June-July, 1941 in which around 6,000 [1] Jews were murdered, in apparent retribution for the collaboration of many Jews with the previous Soviet regime." So we don't know who (who organized Petlyura days?), but we know that the pogrom was allegedly fully justified. Where are the lists of Soviet collaborators? Xx236 06:46, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

The statement that "the pogrom was fully justified" is grossly offensive and racist. No pogrom ever, under any circumstances, is "fully justified". Please desist from such remarks. RolandR 10:58, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Is "apparent retribution for the collaboration" (article) much different than "fully justified" (my wording)? Xx236 11:13, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, of course it is. The phrase "apparent retribution" speculates about the motives of the perpetrators of this crime. The phrase "fully justified" condones the crime.RolandR 11:37, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

"apparent" isn't any speculation. But I have inserted "alleged" to make my point more clear. Xx236 13:17, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV

The editor comes in and slaps a POV on my section, but leaves no explanation. The purpose of my section was to provide context for the events leading to the pogroms. The way the article is written makes it appear (intentionally) that Russian peasants just decided one day to up and kill jews. It is suggested to read the book Esau's Tear by Albert Lindemann.

The section I marked as POV for the following reasons:

1) Its cheap horror-show stuff that adds little real knowledge (dead kids, yawn.) 2) "Some historians believe" used to insert an assertion (that the Tsar promoted the pogroms) that is not taken seriously by most Russian historians. 3) A sensationalistic newpaper account from 1903 is a horrible source. "...are worse than the censor will permit to publish" :rolleyes:

  • Among other reasons, I inserted the POV tag because Occidental Quarterly, from which you're quoting, is a self-described Christian supremacist publication. --M@rēino 18:04, 14 August 2006 (UTC)


    • Do you have any objection to the facts in the quote?
      • Well, first off, it totally doesn't support the claim that "The root cause of the pogroms was the economic exploitation of the Russian peasantry by Jews." All that the quote says is that the Jews were bureaucrats for the nobility and bartenders. Who ever heard people complain that bureaucrats and bartenders were powerful? --M@rēino 18:34, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
        • Do you have any idea what the life of a peasant was like? There was one local bar you went to, because you didn't travel anywhere, and in the Russian empire that bar was almost always run by a jew, who charged whatever he wanted. Same thing with the local mill, etc. After emancipation jews would often lease land from nobles and charge exhorbitant rates for to peasants for farming it, putting them permantly in debt, similar to the situation faced by black sharecroppers in the US south. Basically, jews acted as agents for nobles, and this resulted in them becoming the "face" of oppresion, the people who overcharged them for bad beer. This is the root cause of anti-semitism in Eastern Europe of that period.
      • Accusations of ethnic criminality require, and don't constitute, support as an explanation for historical events. The source for these disconnected quotes was a book review by Kevin MacDonald (Google "A Revisionist view of Anti-Semitism"), not the Lindemann book itself. The sense of the quotes from the review seems to be that the government and landowners were blameless, the peasants were "spontaneous", and the subjects of the pogroms culpable. This concept of arbitrary and diffuse responsibility is ungrounded in logic, let alone fact. Furthermore, the phrase "root cause" implies that the overcharging which Mr. MacDonald asserts was itself uncaused. These are strong and unsupported claims. I added a sentence identifying the quotes as an illustration of "scapegoating" (without pre-judging the correctness of the citation, the quotes, the book "Esau's Tears", the Russian monarchy's assertions, their inner beliefs, or the true state of ethnic relations) because they would have educational value for a reader unfamiliar with anti-Semitism, but should not be taken as consensus.--Davidrei 18:10, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
This delicate problem requires careful and methodic approach. Cerainly, to fully understand why such tragedies occured one cannot dismiss the economic factors as well. For example, it is a fact that in the Russian census of 1897 it says that out of 618926 people employed in trade 450427 were Jewish, while the total Jewish population in Russia made up just over 4 percent of the imperial population. Similar disproportions in representations existed in other situations, involving other nations on both sides, and they often led to violent confrontations. The underlying economic problem was of course, enforced and aided by anti-semitism or other kinds of national discrimination. The undeniable existance of the economic factor does not in any way condone murders of children and adults, rapes and other violence, nor does it suggest that such acts against the Jews (and other groups) were justified. Also, there is some inbalance in this article as the section about the Russian Empire's pogroms is much larger than the section about the Middle Ages, and while this argument could be rebuffed since the term "pogrom" orginitaed in the 19th century, according to the Russian-language Jewish Encyclopedia from the beginning of medieval pogroms in Western Europe to 1500 about 380 000 Jews lost their lives to such violence (out of about a 1 000 000). Thus this form of presentation creates a rather unfaivorable image of Russia, while the scale of violence there is in thousands (not hundreds of thousands). Also, the view that Black Hundred was agressive anti-semitic organization is contested, and quite convincingly, by some modern Russian historians (for example, Vadim Kozhinov). Overall, I think this article needs much improvment, and as soon as I have free time I will be happy to fill in some blanks. With respect, Ko Soi IX 18:27, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Kielce pogrom was a major factor in the flight of Jews from Eastern Europe at the end of the Second World War.

The statement is biased, there were many factors - pogroms in Slovakia and Hungary, state robbery ("nationalization"), unification (not allowing Jewish cooperatives or plants), atheization, Sionism, tolerated emigration (non-Jews weren't allowed to emigrate). Xx236 13:38, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Just small remarks

Aren't some figures of victims inflated? If there were 12000 Jews killed in Mainz alone, how many non-Jewish inhabitants were there in Mainz? London had (maybe) 35000 inhabitans in 14th century, and Mainz...? Is 1600 victims Jedwabne sure? Maybe it is better to write 380-1600, to be consistent with the rest of Wikipedia? 84.10.114.122 19:14, 15 December 2006 (UTC), a casual visitor.

Concerns addressed. `'mikkanarxi 19:28, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
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