Talk:Piazza San Marco

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[edit] Piazza San Marco vs. St Mark's Square

Perhaps the officious person who moved Piazza di San Marco to St Mark's Square will move Rue de Rivoli to Rivoli Street and give us Elysian Fields, Paris. Wetman 18:21, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

  • The difference is that people say "St Mark's Square", and as such we use English. It still gives the Italian name and that redirects there. Nobody, to my knowledge, has ever used those other translations. Warofdreams 18:23, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

"St Mark's Square" is technically sort-of-correct, but far from the most common usage in English - that would be "Piazza San Marco", which is supported by both Google (3x on English pages alone), and in my printed works on Italy and Venice. The "most familiar" rule should trump tortured Anglicizations. Stan 19:44, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

  • How did you get that figure of three times? My searches (including the most common misspelling) show they are roughly equal, with St Mark's Square slightly ahead (note: I used the English-only search for the Piazza San Marco search):
    • St-Mark's-Square 38,600
    • St-Marks-Square 9,880
    • Piazza-San-Marco 36,000
    • Piazza-di-San-Marco 1,180
  • Warofdreams 17:13, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I thought Google would return same results for apostrophe and non-apostrophe forms. I still think it's a horrible translation, but apparently nobody else does. :-) Stan 19:58, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I agree with Stan and Wetman, this should be under Piazza San Marco, which it is commonly known as in English. Wetman's points about Rivoli Street, Elysian Fields, Paris and Highbank, Venice are spot on.
People never use those terms. People frequently use the term St Mark's Square. Much better comparisons can be made with Wien, Praha, etc.
I agree entirely on the city case, I did mention several Italian cities below that are commonly and appropriately known by their English names. However streets within a city are almost always known by their local language names (hence Rue de Rivoli, Champs-Elysees, etc.) Blorg 13:22, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
It's interesting that streets are almost always known by their local language names, but squares rarely are (e.g. Tiananmen Square, Red Square, Wenceslas Square, etc). Warofdreams 10:29, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The Google English results for "Piazza San Marco" (73k) and "St. Mark's Square" (65k) are more or less equal, and a strong case could be made for excluding misspellings (including the missing apostrophe) as inherently non-authoritative sources.
I think we should only anglicise where the thing is overwhelmingly known in English only by the anglicisation (e.g. the anglicisations of Venezia, Roma, Firenze, Milano, Napoli).
"On the English Wikipedia, use English, unless you're mentioning a name or abbreviation that has no known English translation." - from the contributing FAQ. Warofdreams 11:57, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
That would be ridiculous if taken literally, leading to a situation akin to Wetman's Elysian Fields, Paris point above. Indeed, to continue your quote, 'unless the native form is more commonly used in English than the anglicized form' - as I believe it is in this case. "St Mark's Square" to me sounds like a 19th century anachronism that goes against more common modern usage (cf. Leghorn). Blorg 13:22, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I'm sorry to hear it sounds like that to you; it clearly doesn't to the 50% of websites which use it. Warofdreams 10:29, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
My constructive suggestion: move the page back to Piazza San Marco, which seems to be something of a consensus. Blorg 17:05, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I disagree. If it is moved, I'll leave it alone, but it seems to me that it would be going against agreed policies. Warofdreams 11:57, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Continuing from the Naming conventions that you quoted, "There is a trend in part of the modern news media and maps to use native names of places and people, even if there is a long-accepted English name [...] One should use judgment in such cases as to what would be the least surprising to a user finding the article." The article was originally at Piazza San Marco, with no users expressing 'surprise', while since it was moved, three seperate users have expressed 'surprise' at the new name on the talk page. Blorg 13:22, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

There are even slightly more links in Wikipedia to Piazza San Marco than St Mark's Square (9 to 6 excluding redirects and User pages, etc.) We can keep St Mark's Square as a redirect. Blorg 17:39, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I'm with Blorg. --Mintie 01:48, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
  • Piazza San Marco is the term used in all of my English-language architecture and urbanism books (none of which date to before the 20th century). Dystopos 03:25, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
The point that we all missed here is that making a move to a well-established article without offering discussion to other editors is a crass blunder of taste. And that making a move without cleaning up the redirects is infantile and selfish. Good behavior is all but as important as good information. --Wetman 20:59, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
  • First, has anyone suggested such a thing or is this a response to something that happened in 2004? Second, in my opinion, good behavior is important only to the community, except as it impacts the information, which is important to a much larger group of readers. Wikipedia has guidelines and policies for both which we should take to heart. --Dystopos 00:42, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Amen to that. --Wetman 12:13, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Buildings

The following material has been removed, under the guise of "NPOV," by someone who has perhaps never heard of Vincenzo Scamozzi or a ridotto (how would you render ridotto in English?), and who thinks the only appropriate description of a piazza is its paving. The buildings define the piazza, though some of them need their own entries, of course. Descriptive assessments and characterizations of style and quality in works of architecture are not "points-of-view" in the common Wikipedia sense:

"The rest is surrounded by historic buildings over arcades, the last of them completed, to finish off the square, under Napoleon's occupation. In the neoclassical interiors so out of character in Venice, were housed the Napoleonic governor after the fall of the Republic, then the Austrian governor, then they were reserved for the use of the kings of Italy and now the President of Italy receives in them if he is in Venice. The Procuratie Vecchie and the Procuratie Nuove (Vincenzo Scamozzi) house old, famous and expensive coffee houses, cheek-by-jowl: Gran Caffè Quadri, Caffè Florian, which opened its doors December 29, 1720, and Caffè Lavegna, in the same premises since the mid-18th century; it was Richard Wagner's favorite. Above, many a Venetian family whose Ca might be a long gondola ride from the Piazza, kept a small apartment for entertaining called a ridotto, the scenes of paintings of fashionable life by Alessandro Longhi. The ridotti were extremely fashionable in Venice. As much care and taste went into the furnishings and stuccoed and painted decor of the ridotti as were expended on the palazzi of Venice themselves."

We look forward to a much improved characterization of "Saint Mark's Square" Wetman 18:39, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

  • Most of this has just been rephrased. The remainder, refers specifically to the Procuraties, which I thought was not well placed in this more general article, but feel free to reinsert that until we have an article on them. What was that policy on avoiding personal attacks? Remember, this is everybody's article to edit. So edit it - don't just complain! Warofdreams 18:44, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • I've now written an article on the Procuraties, which includes much of that paragraph. Warofdreams 16:51, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Now we have a Wikipedia entry on the "Procuraties" the singular of which one imagines would be a Procuraty! I look forward to an article on the "Highbank" of Venice. When I was a lad, old English ladies still referred to Livorno as "Leghorn." That at least had history behind it... Wetman 19:42, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Do you have a constructive suggestion? If so, please make it. Warofdreams 16:07, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Piazetta

Is Piazetta instead of the standard Italian Piazzetta a specifically Venetian spelling that is always used to described this piazzetta? Ruskin invariably called it the "Piazzetta" and he was speaking English and knew Venice. ...I've moved the Procuratie to Procuratie and fixed redirects from Procuratie Vecchie and Procuratie Nuove. It's the only sensible way, similar to Duomo. Wetman 17:02, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)
That's fine with me, it seems a sensible move. I've put the extra "z" in Piazzetta. Warofdreams 18:12, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Yes, the "extra" z indeed! I have restored the deleted information on Saint Theodore of Amasea (not widely known: it took me some hunting to identify him) and the name of the library's architect, Jacopo Sansovino. The columns: brought from Egypt and probably erected in the twelfth century or looted from the Sack of Constantinople in the Crusade? Someone who has reliable information might put this back. It's a shame to drop out Sansovino's name simply because one has never heard of him. Wetman 04:24, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Sound of human voices?

Can somebody please explain the meaning of the following? "It is the only great urban space in a European city where the sound is of human voices talking." Is the intention to highlight the lack of vehicular traffic noise? --Mintie 01:48, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

  • seems self-explanatory, if a bit overstated. Dystopos 03:25, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Distracting blank spaces

Formatting that encases the framed table of contents in text, in just the way a framed map or image is enclosed within the text, is now available: {{TOCleft}} in the HTML does the job.

Blank space opposite the ToC, besides being unsightly and distracting, suggests that there is a major break in the continuity of the text, which may not be the case. Blanks in page layout are voids and they have meanings to the experienced reader. The space betweeen paragraphs marks a brief pause between separate blocks of thought. A deeper space, in a well-printed text, signifies a more complete shift in thought: note the spaces that separate sub-headings in Wikipedia articles.

A handful of thoughtless and aggressive Wikipedians revert the "TOCleft" format at will. A particularly aggressive de-formatter is User:Ed g2s

The reader may want to compare versions at the Page history. --Wetman 20:09, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Naming convention revisited

I'd second that, without repeating my starchy remarks above. Imagine an article on Leghorn. --Wetman 20:59, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
I support that. the current name is ridiculous. I was halfway of renaming it when I saw the ancient discussion above. The Minister of War (Peace) 17:55, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Rereading the above, which seems split between the English rendition, the Italian, and "I don't care" and with the recent show of support for a move, I'm putting this up on Wikipedia:Requested moves. This opens a new period for comment and all interested editors are encouraged to contribute. --Dystopos 21:36, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

St Mark's Square → Piazza San Marco – Rationale: The local name would be the "least surprising" per WP:NC. The bulk of previous discussion above tends toward support for a move. … Please discuss/vote at Talk:St Mark's Square — Dystopos 21:41, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
  • Support (see nomination) --Dystopos 21:54, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Support. I have often heard of the Piazza, but never of the Square. The Minister of War (Peace) 21:56, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose. I still believe that "St Mark's Square" is the more common name in English, which would make it the appropriate article title. Warofdreams talk 10:37, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
    • Funny, I have really honestly never heard of that name. The Minister of War (Peace) 10:56, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
      • Change my vote to Neutral at present - Google Books and Google Scholar finally provide some good evidence for changing the article title. Warofdreams talk 15:39, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Support. It is usual for English-language guidebooks these days to use the real names of foreign places, not anglicised versions - the only exceptions are names such as Venice and Florence that are so well-established as to be effectively part of the English language. No reason Wikipedia should be old-fashioned and insist on using the English versions of everything. -- Necrothesp 15:48, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments
  • The guideline above gives preference to Google Scholar and Google Books searches over Google web searches as quick comparisons of sources likely to carry authority. Here are my results: Google Scholar: "Piazza San Marco" → 593 results; "St Mark's Square" → 156 results. Google Books: "Piazza San Marco" → 3310 pages; "St Mark's Square" → 1259 pages. --Dystopos 01:45, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
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