Talk:Physics/wip/Archive,forDefinition,2

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[edit] Lead proposals

Ok - here is what I propose. For anyone who wants to (be they a long time contributor to this page or someone who hasn't posted anything) I invite them to post a 200-400 word lead section. This is all that I ask for - no discussions - not critiquing what someone else has proposed - just the lead section you want. [...]

If you don't wish to submit a proposal then that is fine. A straw poll will be taken on what is received. The straw poll won't be a vote, and the outcome of it won't decide what the lead text is. What it will allow us all to do is to focus on the specifics. I posted my comments (~400 words) 25 hours ago - and this page has racked up ~4,000 words of response in that short time. Great if they were new words, but it is just chasing tail stuff once again. If folks won't focus voluntarily then I will attempt to do it by this method of asking for a lead text proposal from all parties. I suggest around a week or so for submissions to be accepted - that is flexible if editors have reasons for requiring a longer amount of time. [...]

I submit the above proposal to other editors - focus is required - the past 25 hours have confirmed in my mind that without it this is just going to become nothing but people going around in circles. SFC9394 23:56, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Format: ----
====~~~'s lead proposal, ~~~~~====
Your proposal here
----

[edit] Krea's lead proposal, 01:12, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok, this is what I have quickly come up with... Krea 01:12, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Physics is the process by which one aims to obtain knowledge of nature: it tries to discover and understand the basic constituents of nature and their interactions through a framework called the scientific method.

Throughout history, the difficulty of this task meant that, at any one particular time, physics often had to focus its enquiry on some specific aspect of nature on which reasonable progress could be made. Thus, physics is often regarded as a science separate from the other traditional sciences (such as chemistry, biology etc.), which only aims to talk about those aspects of nature not covered by these fields - even though it can be, and often is, regarded to be their progenitor. Therefore, it is often heard that physics is the study of matter and energy, forces and motion, or some combination of these concepts, even though it is widely regarded that the true domain of physics is, in fact, not bounded by such concepts.

[edit] Ancheta Wis' lead proposal, 01:44, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

1. Definition -- See list of topics to the right, or see the categories

Physics is a science.

• "Truth is ever to be found in the simplicity, and not in the multiplicity and confusion of things." —Isaac Newton
• "To explain all nature is too difficult a task for any one man or even for any one age. 'Tis much better to do a little with certainty, and leave the rest for others that come after you, than to explain all things." —Isaac Newton

2. Introduction

Physics can explain the system of the world An example of the system of the world: -- looking to the west, clouds are moving toward us, in an illustration of the rotation of the Earth. The clouds are part of an atmosphere with a uniform temperature across the sky at a single altitude, but with temperature which varies with altitude. The clouds have condensed from vapor to water droplet at a precise temperature, uniformly, thus causing a flat-bottomed cloud. The air is not mixing at these altitudes, which we see as a straight line, parallel to the horizon. Thus gravitation is influencing the shape of the flat-bottomed clouds. At other locations in the sky, the clouds are subject to turbulence and mixing. The density of the atmosphere also is varying with altitude, causing a continuum of hue, with deeper blue at the zenith and lighter blue at the horizon (obscured by the trees). The blue color of the sky is due to Rayleigh scattering, which also explains the red color of the sunsets (not shown). Characterization: the Nature of things The basic program for physics was instituted most noticeably by the time of the scientific revolution. In this program, a 'system of the world' was demonstrated by Newton[1], by which ever simpler constructs could be examined. This was the basis for several revolutions over the succeeding centuries during which physics became more and more exact and also more and more abstract. The program for mechanics, instituted by Newton, basically answered 'where' and 'when'[2]. This was the triumph of the geometrization of mechanics begun by Galileo. Characterization of successive elements of nature then proceeded as physics developed. This parabola-shaped lava flow illustrates Galileo's law of falling bodies as well as blackbody radiation -- you can tell the temperature from the color of the blackbody. Cassiopeia A - a spherically symmetric remnant of the 1680 supernova The Astronaut and Earth are both in free-fall. Diffraction of light by a prism. Lightning is electric current. Experiment. Historically, physics has developed hand-in-hand with technology; the experimental devices of the scientists of each era had features which were consistent with the physics of that time. For example, Walter Bothe built the AND gate for a coincidence detector for use in Compton scattering. For this work he got the Nobel prize, 30 years later, in 1954. Today, Boolean logic is routinely used in engineering and information technology. Galileo built his own telescope (but not the lenses) - philosopher Baruch Spinoza was a lens grinder. Isaac Newton, accounted the greatest physicist in history, built his own telescopes by grinding his own mirrors with pitch (from which we routinely use Newton's rings to judge the quality of a telescope's mirror), and performed his own optical and alchemical experiments. The following list of technology which has been used in experiments can serve as a chronicle for the history of experimentation, as applied in an experiment (sorted by date of invention) 4500 BCE - the astronomical observatory is ancient enough for observations in India to document the precession of the constellations, 2700 BCE - a simple machine - the inclined plane - used by Galileo to determine the acceleration of gravity in the early 1600s, 2000 BCE - mirrors were exploited by Isaac Newton to minimize the abberation in the telescope in the 1670s, 600 BCE - Archimedes' screw, imaginative use of the simple machines 300 BCE - the pump was used by Otto von Guericke to produce a vacuum in 1654, 200 BCE - the astrolabe was used in navigation, 80 BCE - the gear was used in the engine, 975 - the pendulum was used by Galileo to measure time, 1280 - the lens was used to build telescopes, 1600 - the telescope was used by Ole Rømer to measure the speed of light by observing the motion of Io across Jupiter, 1680 - a prism was used by Newton to determine a theory of light, 1700 - the bell jar was used to study vacuum and the atmosphere, 1745 - the Leyden jar was used to store electrical charge, 1761 - the chronometer was used to measure time at sea, 1824 - the engine was used to provide energy and do work, 1821 - a railroad car was crucial for the development of relativity, 1860 - the spectroscope was to be used in quantum theory, 1903 - the airplane has been used to measure the cosmic microwave background, 1906 - the vacuum tube was used as an electrical circuit element, 1924 - Walter Bothe builds the AND gate, an electrical circuit element, as a coincidence detector for use in Compton scattering in 1924, 1929 - the cyclotron was used to accelerate charged particles, 1935 - the magnetron was built as a source of microwave radiation (suitable for radio frequency direction finding and a crucial element of the technology disclosed by the British to the Americans on the eve of WWII), 1945 - the digital computer was used to solve equations, 1947 - the transistor was used as a circuit element, 1957 - Isaac Newton proposed a thought experiment for a artificial satellite as part of his demonstration of the free-fall of the planets (1687), 1959 - the integrated circuit could miniaturize and commoditize circuits, 1960 - the laser was built as a source of photons, 1969 - the internet could commoditize knowledge, giving rise to the world wide web and to systems based on trust, 1978 - the global positioning system of artificial satellites could commoditize the determination of position and time, 1986 - the atomic force microscope could manipulate atoms, 1999 - NIST-F1 could serve as a time standard 2006 - People discover they can walk upon a swimming pool filled with a non-newtonian fluid. (This could also be dangerous - don't do this at home.) 2006 - John Cramer is preparing an experiment to determine whether quantum entanglement is also nonlocal in time as it is in space. This can also be stated as 'sending a signal back in time'. The experiment is still in preparation as of 10:57, 16 November 2006 (UTC). more... Archimedes' screw uses the simple machines to lift water. The hands-on experience with the devices of technology is an essential part of physics. Richard Feynman, blunt-spoken and not known for diplomacy, once remarked that the 1930's era cyclotron at MIT was hand-built and well-used, while the cyclotron at Princeton, was more professionally built, and therefore little-used during his term of study there. Forty years later, building cyclotrons was a high-school level activity, which can cause signficant drain on the electrical grid of the neighborhood. Physicists have used the technology of each era to further their own scientific predictions, as well as to further the development of mathematics, in each era, in a cooperative effort. Mathematical notation is the writing system of mathematics, a technology to which physicists have contributed and in which the theories of physics are often expressed. In physics, however, the constructs of physics are paramount in the use of any notation, liberally interspersed with visual diagrams of the physical situation. It has been the custom to retain a standard set of symbols when writing in a mathematical notation, which allows a 'feel' for the subject and permits common representations of the same things. And physicists learn mnemonics (see right-hand rule) and other informal representations (such as those which show how to multiply matrices, or how a dimension might be rolled-up) as well. "3 candlesticks times 5 cab-drivers is 15 candlestick cab-drivers" -- George Gamow Physics series: Physicists Archimedes Eratosthenes Gilbert Galileo Newton Lagrange Hamilton Faraday Maxwell Boltzmann Gibbs Planck Einstein Bohr Dirac more... Physics Portal Theory. The current constructs of physics include space, time, mass, charge, energy, fields, entropy, information, the parameters of the standard model. Step by step, the constructs took basic mathematical models of physicists -- Galileo, Newton, Lagrange, Hamilton, Faraday, Maxwell, Boltzmann, Gibbs, Planck, Einstein, Bohr, Dirac, and others and applied them with ever greater precision. The interplay between theory and the real world (as experimentalists like to say) has been fruitful for physics: new physical phenomena can serve as challenges to theoreticians to be explained in their theories because that theory is incomplete, or to show that a hypothesis has been disproved and the theoretician must select another realm of possibility, or a theory has been corroborated -- and the theory is not yet disproven. The thought experiment need not be expensive, but the people who are able to create them are required, for their publication. (See TOC, right) One technique used in physics research involves Carnap-Ramsey sentences. The free and bold construction of mental models has existed from the inception of the science of physics; this technique shows specifically how to side-step questions of ontology by focusing on the gist rather on potentially irrelevant detail: "every time a theoretical term appears in a theory one should substitute a variable x for it and the theory should be preceded by the expression 'there exists a certain thing x, such that ... '"[3]. For example, a brane can be fruitfully applied in this way, without worry whether branes 'exist' -- thus Henry Tye can theorize that the Big Bang was produced by the collision of a brane and its anti-brane, which is a statement that would apply before the emergence of spacetime. This free mode of thought can be used, for example to solve any differential equation (as Feynman liked to put it[4]), but it requires imagination. Today, even the most basic concepts such as space and time are known to their theoretical limits; in physics we can even conceive of a smallest space and a smallest time which are known to be nonzero. Today, experimentation has progressed to the point that single atoms can be imaged in their positions in materials, and single atoms can be positioned at will, where earlier physicists from two thousand years before could only speculate on the existence of atoms on the grounds of ontology. Although it takes enormous amounts of energy (i.e., money), particles can even be artificially created or destroyed. But the mass points of Newton are now the target for even closer scrutiny and require the consideration of stupefyingly high-energy realms which we cannot investigate experimentally on Earth, leaving us only the cosmos as our laboratory for particle physics. What are under investigation are basic properties of the Standard Model and the symmetry exposed by the model. The process of development in physics continues to this day, with no limits in sight. Categories of physics [–] Physics [+] Applied and interdisciplinary physics [+] Atomic, molecular, and optical physics [+] Physics awards [+] Computational physics [+] Condensed matter physics [+] Condensed phase [+] Physics education [+] Electromagnetism [+] Physics events [+] Experimental physics [+] Fringe physics [+] Fundamental physics concepts [+] History of physics [+] Hypothetical objects [+] Physics lists [+] Physics literature [+] Mechanics [+] Physics organizations [+] Particle physics [+] Philosophy of physics [+] Physicists [+] Plasma physics [+] Pseudophysics [+] Quantum mechanics [+] Solid mechanics [+] Theoretical physics [+] Thermodynamics [+] Turbulence [+] Unsolved problems in physics [+] Physics stubs

3. History & Foundations

4. Principles/Concepts

5. Current Topics/Current Research

6. Applications and Influence

7. References and Notes

1. ^ Newton (1687) Philosophiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica
2. ^ Richard Feynman (1963) The Feynman Lectures on Physics 1 p.5-1.
3. ^ G. Toraldo di Francia (1976), The Investigation of the Physical World ISBN 0-521-29925-X p.74
4. ^ Laurie M. Brown (ed.) (2005), Feynman's [Ph.D.] Thesis: A new approach to Quantum Theory ISBN 981-256-366-0 p.13

8. External Links

Word counts:

1. Definition, not including the citations or italicized words -- 4 words

Further development from a tutorial point of view might place the physics of the playground (i.e., classical mechanics) under section 3 or section 4 depending on consensus.

Interrelationships of the topics of physics might go in section 3 or section 4 depending on consensus.

Some of the contributions to complex systems by Murray Gell-Mann and others might be placed in section 5.

It would be a shame not to highlight David R. Ingham's venn diagram for physics.

[edit] Noetica's proposal (Lead and Introduction, combined) – Noetica 04:31, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

[Note added on 18 November: Now that a number of comments have been made (see below), I am amending my proposal to address certain criticisms that I consider worthy of a response. I will not, for now, directly comment on any comments. I have simply marked deleted text before text that replaces it, so that the changes are evident. (I have also removed the image: it was really just a placeholder, and the copyright for it needs further documentation.) – Noetica]

Physics is the science that aims to identify the basic constituents of the natural world, and the any laws according to which they combine and interact in complex systems. This is how physics is best understood broadly, philosophically, and in its origins. This definition of physics is useful for an understanding of its origins and its primary role, in a philosophical and historical context. The term is derived from Greek: τα φυσικά (ta phusiká), "[the study of] the things of nature".

In modern times, however, and for practical purposes, physics is usually understood in a more narrow sense. There are special sciences adapted to deal with certain kinds of complex systems: chemistry with reactions among elements and compounds, biology with living organisms, neuroscience with nervous systems, and so on. Each of these special sciences adds its own concepts, theories, and methods to the general stock that is available for all of science. This consideration calls for another definition, to supplement the first:

Physics is the rest of science after the special sciences are taken out: it is concerned more with basic constituents, and less with complex systems.

For most of the present article this narrow understanding of physics will be assumed. The article will deal with physics as it is conceived of, and practised, by contemporary physicists. Physics, narrowed in this way, has evolved these core features:

1. Like all contemporary science, physics is a strongly empirical form of inquiry, using experimentation to test its theories.

2. Most theory in physics relies heavily on mathematical modelling.

3. Physics treats as fundamental two pairs of concepts:

• matter and energy
• space and time

4. Physics is conventionally divided into:

• classical physics (from the work of Isaac Newton, up to and including relativity)
• modern physics (essentially the same as quantum mechanics and its derivatives)

5. Physics is also divided into:

• experimental physics
• theoretical physics
• applied physics

Even by the narrow definition, physics retains a central place among the sciences. It is only in physics that a theory of everything could even be contemplated. As W.V.O. Quine puts it: "If the physicist suspected there was any event that did not consist in a redistribution of the elementary states allowed for by his physical theory, he would seek a way of supplementing his theory. Full coverage in this sense is the very business of physics, and only of physics" (Theories and things, 1981, p. 99). Because the reach of physics remains so broad and universal, the work of physicists inspires progress in other sciences. Theoretical work by the Nobel-laureate physicist Erwin Schrödinger (in What is Life?, 1944) stimulated the discovery of DNA. And that discovery in molecular biology was achieved at the Cavendish: a physics laboratory.

[edit] MichaelMaggs's lead proposal, 08:13, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Physics is the science concerned with the discovery and characterization of the universal laws which govern matter, energy, space and time. Physicists formulate these laws as mathematical theories which attempt to model the behaviour of physical systems at some perceived fundamental level. The aim, however, is to go beyond describing physical phenomena, and to construct theories which can also predict how a physical system will behave. These predictions can then be tested experimentally to verify or falsify the theory.

Some theories are of such significance that they are referred to as the laws of physics. Typically, these are physical principles that are believed to be common to all physical systems, or at least are of very general applicability. Some principles, such as Newton's laws of motion, are still generally called "laws" even though they are now known not to be of such universal applicability as was once thought. The word 'law' is a misnomer since even a law of physics could, in principle, be disproved by experiment. Other theories are more limited: they describe the behaviour of specific physical systems only, or are applicable only under certain circumstances.

Since one of the major goals of physics is the formulation of theories of universal applicability, on a broad perspective physics can be viewed as the study of those univeral laws which define, at the most fundamental level possible, the behaviour of the physical universe.

Classical physics traditionally included the fields of mechanics, optics, electricity, magnetism, acoustics and heat. The more recent fields of general and special relativity have also usually been placed within this category. Modern Physics is a term normally used to cover fields which rely on quantum theory, including quantum mechanics, atomic physics, nuclear physics, particle physics and condensed matter physics. Although this distinction can be commonly found in older writings, it is of limited current significance as quantum effects are now understood to be of importance even in fields previously considered purely classical.

Physics research is divided into two main branches: experimental physics and theoretical physics. Experimental physics focuses mainly on empirical research, and on the development and testing of theories against practical experiment. Theoretical physics is more closely related to mathematics, and involves generating and working through the mathematical implications of systems of physical theories, even where experimental evidence of their validity may not be immediately available.

[edit] M's lead proposal

Physics is the science concerned with describing nature at the fundamental level, the level of matter and energy. There appear to be stable and universal rules that determine the behaviour of these base constituents, and thereby the behaviour of all systems composed of them. Through observation and mathematical theorization, physicists develop models to characterize and predict this behaviour. Physics has presented many accurate and practical models and theories, but there are still unknown dephts to be explored.

With the advent of the scientific method, physics emerged from natural philosophy as one of the natural sciences. [Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit. Nulla aliquam tempor velit. Nulla arcu turpis, faucibus eu, accumsan non, tempus et, felis. Morbi imperdiet vehicula quam. Sed dolor ligula, pharetra lacinia, lacinia in, vestibulum quis, justo. Quisque lectus nunc, ullamcorper a, venenatis ut, pellentesque ac, turpis.]

Physics is traditionally divided into two major categories. Classical physics includes the fields of mechanics, optics, electricity, magnetism, acoustics and heat, as well as the more recent general and special relativity. Modern physics covers fields which rely on quantum theory, including quantum mechanics, atomic physics, nuclear physics, particle physics, and condensed matter physics. This distinction is fading, as quantum effects are now understood to be of importance even in fields previously considered purely classical.

200~ words. The first paragraph might stand on its own, but major historic points and a listing of major subfields (and hence coverage) are surely worth including. The thumb I'd like to use would be bubble chamber tracks. They're very precise, but also lively, almost artistic. The problem is finding a properly licensed image, since we can't claim fair use. Some points:

• "Unknown depths" is too metaphoric for my taste, but another way to say "we have no idea how much more work needs to be done" is lacking. It also implies that problems at the current depth are solved, which is false. Perhaps "but much is still unknown about..."
• The second paragraph should be properly expanded with major historic points.
• Perhaps "...including quantum mechanics, and atomic, nuclear, particle, and condensed matter physics." in the third paragraph, removing the repetition of "physics"?

–M^T 22:17, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Joshua Davis' contribution 18:29, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

While not added by Joshua Davis himself, Ancheta Wis has recognized the following proposal and it is re-copied here. Content and comment are seperated. –M^T 09:36, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Physics is a broad field of inquiry into the natural world, that provides foundational elements for the other natural sciences. Although practicing physicists traditionally study a limited (albeit rather broad) set of phenomena, the principles of physics are applicable throughout natural science.

Then some example about how your circulatory system obeys hydrodynamics and how chemistry is complicated quantum mechanics. Then go go on to list the traditional areas of physics but then point out that there are people who do the physics of biology, geology, information systems, ... . The main points to get across are that physics is really broad(from sub-atomic to extra-galactic); it's principles apply throughout natural science; traditionally physicists study the things in the list I made above; there are physicists in other disciplnes as well(this is connected to the second point). I think this gives the field sufficient credit without getting into metaphysics.

[edit] Some comments on the definition of physics

Appended to the archive#1 14:28, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Note to those who have not been following recent discussion: Please refrain from comment, but instead attend to the proposals listed above, created at the request of the moderator; see his comment above. If you have a proposal, then append it to the list above.

[edit] Straw poll

Almost a week has passed since the last submission, and 10 days since the first, so lets open the straw poll. Voice your support or opposition for each, and give terse reasons for your choice. A few sentences, at most, should be enough. Avoid arguments. Focus on the lead as a lead, and not as an argument for or against a given position. –M^T 09:36, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Note: somehow the software is 'off by one'. So if you want to edit the straw poll section, go to the TOC, select 'off by one' then select 'edit'. --Ancheta Wis 11:35, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Looks like it wasn't taking into account a heading in the collapsed section above. Removed heading, replaced with equivalent. We should probably comment on these ourselves, so I offer my criticisms (good things are more obvious and harder to pin down). –M^T 14:01, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks to M for setting the straw poll/comments section running - I have been busy for the last few days and haven't had any time to get it running. I am glad to see that folks are commenting in a nice bulleted concise form to each proposal. I suggest leaving this comment phase open for a week or so to allow a "view" to be formed on each proposal. SFC9394 20:49, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

We have very few external responses, unless we get more, I don't think that this will be productive. Noetica and Krea, please consider revising. You wrote ~600 and ~800 words, averaging 100 and 130 per point. The others range from 34 (MichaelMaggs) to 48 (O. Prytz). It might've been better had none of us commented, save perhaps pre-poll corrective comments. But this is not ideal regardless, since we don't seem to have professional writers, well-known physicists, or a target audience sample reviewing and commenting. Ideas welcome. –M^T 17:35, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

M, you suggest that Krea and I "consider revising" our responses to the proposals. I am not at all inclined to do that, since I merely said what I needed to say. I could have said more, of course, but refrained from commenting on comments. Now I'll add this: some of the material in comments I found captious and trivially easy to dispatch; I have made small changes to my own proposal, carefully annotated, in response to that. I note that some people have treated this straw poll as a vote, where it had been set up in a way that explicitly excluded a vote. It is therefore regrettable, M, that you issued an invitation to "voice your support or opposition for each", which risks discouraging dialogue towards a consensus. Let's work cooperatively, and respect procedures that have been explicitly laid down. Let me say once more here that I have continually modified my own proposal to respect the concerns of the "narrow" camp. The record of this page's development shows that. And let me ask this: precisely what proposition do you contest in my proposal? It incorporates the essence of the positions of you and MichaelMaggs completely, so far as I can determine what that essence is. I have entered fully into responsive dialogue, in a conciliatory way. I call on everyone to be more flexible and responsive. If we don't all do that, clearly no consensus can emerge. In short, therefore, I call not for a trimming of comments, but additions to comments: say precisely what you don't like, pinning down particular sentences, phrases, or words, and give the proposers a chance to address those concerns. Then respond to proposers' changes, iteratively working towards a consensus. – Noetica 22:51, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Now that we have gone through an exercise of each writing separate definitions, might we side-step the issue of which is best? Wiki-action works by collaboration on a single topic. By attempting to impose what appeared to be 'good practice' it appears that we are simply repeating the mistakes of Nupedia.

Francis Crick warned about the dangers of defining something which is ill-understood; although physics is well-understood by many practioners, those same practioners are busy re-defining the field, as I state in my proposal. Crick pointed out that after the structure of DNA was discovered, then the definition of the gene was easier to state. In the same way, perhaps after the article is largely written, then item 1 might be back-annotated, to use an integrated circuit term.

Perhaps we might get to a win-win situation, which is the usual state of a wiki collaboration by taking what exists and collaborating on a single version. For example, the current head of Wikimedia, User:Anthere has recounted the history of apple:

The article started as

• 'An apple is a fruit.'

And the community went on from there. While there is still controversy, there is plenty to agree upon. And there are many ways to work around sticking points. For example, we might leave placeholders on disputed points, and go on. --Ancheta Wis 02:07, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

What do you propose as the placeholder? –M^T 08:14, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

• Physics is a science.

Perhaps this might suffice for some consensus. --Ancheta Wis 10:45, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

A straw poll doesn't mean that you can't express support, only that the support won't be tallied. I very specifically requested tersity. "Do not voice support" was not laid down, "be terse" was. I ask you to consider revision because it seems that you've disregarded the procedure. Don't treat this with hostility; short and direct comments will only help bring focus and, most importantly, more contributers. As for your contribution, I've already outlined my concerns below. You havn't so much written an introduction as yet another argument/justification for your position. Which is fine. But it doesn't make a very good introduction. –M^T 08:14, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

M, yes: you requested terseness. That is open to interpretation, of course. I have already indicated that I could have been said more, and that I forbore to say it. There is no substance in your claim that I have disregarded procedure. Now you seek to dismiss my proposal, which all agree is well written, and which the history of this page shows I have modified more than once in response to discussion and criticism. You say it is yet another justification for my position? It might read that way, but only because it (unlike your proposal) has an argument and a line of reasoning to it, rather being a string of loosely connected assertions with little of logical rigour and less of focused relevance to the task: uncovering what is essential to physics. I have made clear what I object to in your proposal (and my objections have yielded no scintilla of flexible response from you). But you have not done the same for my proposal. I might reasonably take your refusal to engage, when I ask you direct questions, as hostile and unproductive (if we are now to level such accusations). You refuse to say precisely what proposition you contest in my proposal, and I repeat now your request that you do so. You do not acknowledge for a moment that my definition includes your own – and respects it, justifies it, places it in a context, and hands the remainder of the article over to it. (Yes, perhaps I repeat myself. To stop me doing so, answer what I write the first time: or at least the second or third time.) – Noetica 10:43, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Could you not have said, regarding MichaelMaggs's proposal: "Well considered and adapted to various points made above. Disagree with definition - should be timeless, but this one limits us to the current era."? You have to understand that it is very trying to see 100 words where 10 would have gotten your point across just as well. You're treating the introduction like a logical argument - it isn't one. There is no grand quest to discover what is essential to physics. All we're trying to do is give a decent outline of what physics-as-we-know-it is to an elementary school student. I don't have to contest a certain "fact" in your proposal to disagree with it - you could write "'a' is a vowel" 50 times, and I won't argue that, but I'd disagree that it's a good lead. –M^T 19:14, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Are we back to the discussing? If so, then I think Ancheta's suggestion is excellent. However, I think it'll fail at the very next correction, unfortunately: "Physics is the science of nature/Physics is the science of energy". M, you criticise both my and Noetica's definitions for being too heavy on explanations/justifications, right? Well, I don't think that is a problem at all since, as Ancheta has said, we are trying to define something that is not trivial. Hence, justifications are required I would say. Whilst I am on this point, can I say that to Ancheta that the danger of such definitions is precisely the point Noetica is warning us about: if you define physics as the study of energy, then it is in danger of being incorrect; whereas if it is defined as the study of nature, whilst it may be vague, it will never be incorrect. This leads me nicely to what Noetica, as do I, would now like to know: what is it exactly that bugs the "energists" about the broad definition? I am finding it really hard to see any non-trivial objection to it. For example, Michael, you say that my "first sentence...fails in my view as it covers a whole range of non-physics research such as a biological study into the mating habits of penguins." But I've explained time and again why such an argument is useless: you have used your definition of physics ("...covers a whole range of non-physics [Id est, non-physics-topics from your definition] research...") to argue against mine. This is no argument, and its use without further justification of its existence should be refrained from. So, objections please "energists". (It would help everyone if you yourselves attacked your own objections - something good physicists should always do - so as what gets posted is a good, well thought out, and non-trivial objection). Krea 14:56, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Krea, you might like to look back at the earlier discussions we had at length about that point. I've addressed it several times, for example here and here. You may not like the fact that the normal everyday use of the word 'physics' differs from what you'd like it to be, but nevertheless it does (evidence: the dictionaries quoted earlier, and the fact that your views didn't prevail in discussions related to the main Physics article). Perhaps you'll get your point in eventually by virtue of persistence and effort when editors who happen to take a different view tire of going over the same points again, again and again.

I regret, once again, that tempers seem to be fraying a little, and that progress (by which I don't mean the number of words typed) remains stalled. Unfortunately, this /WIP page, although an excellent idea, has not been a great practical success in my view and I think we should now close it down. There appears to be no prospect of us all agreeing a lead section that could withstand even a few days in the open-market of the main Physics page. And, no, before anyone suggests it, I don't think that keeping talking will do it --MichaelMaggs 17:00, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree. –M^T 19:14, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Me too. This discussion is a disaster with very little of it in good faith. Joshua Davis 19:18, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

What bugs the "energists" about the broad definition is that it's like defining "fish" as "an animal". If this were a classification, yeah, it'd be correct. But it's a definition, and defining it thus gives us no information, and confuses the "fish" concept with the "animal" concept. "A horse is a fish" - yeah, maybe horses evolved from fish, but they're absolutely different. And maybe the word "fish" might refer in the future to some descendant of current fishes - and this will invalidate our definition completely! We don't know what a fish might be, so let's define it as vaguely as possible! I have no idea how you've stood by your position for this long, it's exactly as ridiculous as this fish analogy. –M^T 19:14, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Good analogy Joshua Davis 19:18, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Joshua Davis: A good analogy? Let's examine it. For a start, if we were to begin a definition of the word fish by saying that a fish is an animal, that might help some who were perplexed by both fish and animal. There is much to be perplexed about with these terms! What counts as an animal? Are paramecia animals? Are whales? Are sponges? Are humans? Are Vulcans' pets? Are self-replicating mobile robots? I'm certain there would be dispute about one or two of these, even among us here. What counts as a fish? Is a shark a fish? (The Shorter Oxford – the SOED – fumbles and contradicts itself with this one: by its modern definition of fish it is not, since it is not a vertebrate; but in the entry for shark it miraculously transmutes into one: 1 A member of a large superorder of marine cartilaginous fishes (selachians) typically having a long streamlined body, many pointed teeth, five to seven gill slits, rough scaly skin, and freq. a prominent dorsal fin; esp. a large voracious fish of this kind.) Is a whale a fish? (Don't laugh: consider older English whalefish, Dutch walvisch, and German Walfisch.) Is an oyster a fish? (We call it a shellfish, don't we?) Is a lamprey a fish? (Wikipedia is not sure; but it is not, according to the explicit definition of fish in the article Fish. That article, by the way, contradicts itself in its lead, by first saying that all fish are vertebrates, and then discussing the cartilaginous "fish", like sharks: cf. SOED). And you thought this was all easy, right?

M: Further to what I wrote for Joshua Davis just now, let's examine this comment of yours about the proposition A fish is an animal:

But it's a definition, and defining it thus gives us no information, and confuses the "fish" concept with the "animal" concept.

This is seriously wayward. First, no one would claim it as a complete definition. Second, if you look at definitions of fish around the place (Wikipedia, SOED, Britannica, etc.), you will see that they all include some taxonomy. Is a fish an animal? The way people talk generally, this is not clear. Someone might say: I don't eat animals! But I'm not a complete vegetarian: I eat eggs and fish. Third, your continuation above concerning horses as fish is a non sequitur worthy of the memorable witch scene from Monty Python and the Holy Grail, and needs no specific refutation here.

The point is that language does not come as ready-ordered and neatly regimented as you assume. I have shown immediately above how experts (scientists, lexicographers) get confused about such "simple" terms as animal and fish; so how well do we expect non-experts to cope? We are all non-experts outside certain limited domains, and we all need to analyse, and to be guided about, and to reach well-founded conventions about, the exact meanings of words.

Am I being difficult? Is Krea? Is Ancheta? No! Our language and its ways are intrinsically difficult and mercurial. So is biological taxonomy; and so, crucially for this page, are notions about relations between the world and the sciences that study it, and between the sciences themselves.

People are either awake to these subtleties or they are not. M, apparently you are not. People care about such analysis, and such logical exegesis and precision, or they don't. M, apparently you don't. I write too much for your comfort and ease, do I, M (see your earlier points, above)? Well, no matter how much or how little I write, you will not respond to what I put to you. I refer specifically to these points and questions from me, above:

...I have continually modified my own proposal to respect the concerns of the "narrow" camp. The record of this page's development shows that. And let me ask this: precisely what proposition do you contest in my proposal? It incorporates the essence of the positions of you and MichaelMaggs completely, so far as I can determine what that essence is. ...

You do not acknowledge for a moment that my definition includes your own – and respects it, justifies it, places it in a context, and hands the remainder of the article over to it.

And still no focused response! Rather, you blandly decree what we are doing here:

You're treating the introduction like a logical argument - it isn't one. There is no grand quest to discover what is essential to physics. All we're trying to do is give a decent outline of what physics-as-we-know-it is to an elementary school student.

Well, we disagree fundamentally. I say that the lead ought to be logical, and ought to justify any definition it presents. If it doesn't do that, the article makes a poor start, and sets out to emulate innumerable other mediocre treatments of the core science that we are attempting to present lucidly and rationally. And if you think that such mediocrity and superficiality are good enough, giving a quick snapshot of physics as it happens to be practised now, so much the worse. No respect for logical analysis, nor for history, nor for the possible future developments of physics.

In view of this intransigence, I am inclined to agree with MichaelMaggs. We cannot make progress here. If we don't all listen to each other, if we don't all elevate the task above the lowest interpretation available for it, and if we don't all make small shifts to accommodate each other's perfectly justified concerns, there is no hope.

And I – along with others, it seems – now withdraw from the page and from the attempt to bring consensus and stability to Physics. – Noetica 21:55, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I take it that I seem to have offended you Michael. I'm sorry - that really wasn't intentional. I'm getting as equally tired of this as everyone I'm afraid: we can't seem to stop arguing in perpetualty. Let me first answer Michael's comments (you can skip this bit if you like - it's only here for completeness). This argument is easily rebuffed: Why should the definition explain how the subject is conducted? It is a definition and nothing more. It is allowed to be as esoteric as it wishes to be. This is a fault however, but it easily remedied: we then go on to say that practically, physics studies energy, etc. Please try to see this from the other perspective: a definition is not concerned with issues of practicality or explanation: it merely defines what the object is. This is more interesting. I'm sorry but I have been trying to define things in a "mathematical" sense (what other sense is there? All definitions are the same: a "mathematical" definition is no different from any other. There is nothing special about mathematical ones - they merely state what properties the object possesses. That is all). So have you been making "mathematical" definitions ("Physics is the science concerned with the discovery and characterization of the universal laws which govern matter, energy, space and time."). So has everybody else here. What is wrong with that? Yes, they may be horribly wrong (I could define physics as the study of the colour blue - I don't think the world is ready for this one yet though...) I said before that all we can do is hope that these definitions are reasonable - and both the narrow and broad are. Anyway, this was just here so that I didn't offend Michael by ignoring him: I don't expect that anyone bothered to read this far though....hmmm, I could just say anything here couldn't I? No. I'll restrain myself...

Anyway, M, I take it you want this to be an easy definition for school kids. Well, I don't (technically, I do too, but I also want it to be something more). I want my peers to look at this page and say, "ah, actually, that's not a bad definition" because I can tell you this: all (ok, that's a bit of an exaggeration) definitions of scientific/mathematical objects are horrible. Somebody from the mathematics department not long ago said that he looked at the definition of a commutative ring (or maybe it was a Noetherian ring, or possible something else - I forget now) and saw three definitions - one of which was wrong!

I think we should just drop this argument and go back to the very basics: discuss what we want this section to be; because I think we, as a group, have different beliefs about what we want this section to be about - which is a core problem that may be causing our wires to cross. I think we all just jumped into it really, and then tried to clarify what we wanted the article to be about. I suggest we just discuss in a very careful, slow, articulate, and civilized manner what we want the section to be about without going into detail about how one would go about this. If this fails, then there is no hope at all. So, lets just all drop the attitude (myself included): SFC9394, may I suggest a "bitch-ometer"? If anyone of us is behaving like a twat, then rack up one point. Five points accumulated, say, from the opinion of any editor (What? We're all grown ups, right? We don't bear grudges...) and the user is blocked from commenting for a set period of time. Hopefully the totally subjective and premiership-referee style way of unsystematic decision making should keep us on our best of behaviour (right?) Anyway, that's just my opinion... Krea 00:36, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Proposal by Krea

• Too short. A lot of it seems an explanation/justification of the definition. –M^T 14:01, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
• The first sentence - "Physics is the process by which one aims to obtain knowledge of nature" - fails in my view as it covers a whole range of non-physics research such as a biological study into the mating habits of penguins. --MichaelMaggs 18:07, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
• The style is a bit wayward and indirect, but I agree with the general message of this lead, which was the first one posted – so Krea was working without any precedents. I will not write "support" or "oppose" here, since we did this exercise on this understanding (see above): "The straw poll won't be a vote" Why set up or maintain oppositions? We should be collaborating, towards a consensus. – Noetica 20:23, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Proposal by Ancheta Wis

• Notes several worthy points, but it doesn't seem introductory. Somewhat choppy and advanced. A good history-based overview would be there if it were simplified. –M^T 14:01, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
• Some very good things, which may come in useful later on in the article, but it's too specific, advanced, unconnected and long for the lead paragraphs. --MichaelMaggs 18:01, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
• Bubbling with creative possibilities that really should be considered for incorporation in the article. I like the generalist, philosophical tenor of this proposal. It goes well beyond the brief to write a lead; and the lead ideas (the universality of physics, its applicability well beyond its conventional demarcation, etc.) tend to get lost in the exuberant and ingenious detail. I will not write "support" or "oppose" here, since we did this exercise on this understanding (see above): "The straw poll won't be a vote". – Noetica 20:33, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
• Some good points: I quite like the statement on an "aggregate definition" which serves as a good base to develop this perspective from, amongst others. However, the format is too broken (possible intentionally?), and some points don't seem to fit particularly well into the lead section - the composition of the Earth, for example. The broken nature of the section leaves it difficult for me to asses what the ultimate aim of the section is; although there does not seem to be anything explicitly incorrect. Summarizing, more focus is required on the direction of, and aim of, the lead section (a minor concern if the author did not address this need in formulating the section), but equally, some good points raised. I shall not voice an opinion on the other sections Ancheta has created yet. Krea 17:16, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Proposal by Noetica

• Clearly written. A lot of it seems an explanation/justification of the definition. The list there outlines well what we'd like to state, but it shouldn't be a list, and should be given more room. –M^T 14:01, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
• A good list, which could be worked up for the later sections of the article. I'm unhappy with an introductory definition, though, which is based on a bald assertion that this is how the subject is 'best understood', and which (by the terms of paragraph two) is neither modern nor practical.--MichaelMaggs 18:15, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
• I will not reply here to anything said in other comments on my proposal, which I have headed Lead and Introduction, combined, let it be noted. I just want to reiterate my aim and my reasons, so that anyone who has missed them earlier can see them now: My proposal encompasses entirely the narrow vision of physics that others have been proposing; I fully respect that point of view, and indeed I account for its importance; I allow that the remainder of the article should adopt that point of view. But I want to start as broadly as possible, so that the narrow understanding of physics fits into a context, and so that our definition is robust enough to deal with all physics: past, present, future, and possible. I will not write "support" or "oppose" here, since we did this exercise on this understanding (see above): "The straw poll won't be a vote". – Noetica 21:16, 13 November 2006 (UTC) [Note: I have made some changes to the wording just now. See the note at the top of my proposal. – Noetica 00:50, 18 November 2006 (UTC)]
• This is a well written and easy to understand lead section that supports the positions that it takes. I can find no major inaccuracies, although, to be pedantic, there are some minor points that could be addressed - the largest of which relates to the first sentence: for the sake of generality (which Noetica states as an aim of this lead section), the first sentence implicitly suggests the existence of laws between such "base constituents" and their ability to "combine". However, this may be trivially remedied by stating that "objects do not interact" is itself a law of interaction. As a contrast, my definition just talked of "knowledge of nature" (which itself may be objected to on the grounds of incomprehensibility - thus requiring further explanations). This does not detract from the maturity of the lead section however, and in my opinion, in an attempt of further improvement, it should next try to incorporate other perspectives of what physics is and how it can be defined. Krea 17:16, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Proposal by MichaelMaggs

• Support: I'm in favor of this proposal because it contains the elements that are most essential in my eyes: the notion of matter/energy, the falsification and the division into classical and modern branches. One remark though: I'd replace space and time with spacetime. Nick Mks 12:39, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
• Is quite introductory and has good coverage. That it could be stated in fewer words is my only complaint. –M^T 14:01, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support. This proposal accurately describes my notion of physics. Perhaps it is a bit long, and maybe the section of the laws of physics could be scrapped, made shorter or moved. On the other hand, an intro of this size might be needed for a topic like this. O. Prytz 17:04, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support - evidently. I've tried to encompass the two main views that have been expressed, but whether that's enough remains to be seen --MichaelMaggs 17:54, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
• (I will not write "support" or "oppose" here, since we did this exercise on this understanding (see above): "The straw poll won't be a vote".) MichaelMaggs has given us a well-considered proposal, and has adjusted things along the way in a conciliatory and responsive fashion. (I have tried to do that in mine, too.) My objections would be these: First, we need a definition that is timeless and flexible, so that it won't be impossible to apply it outside of post-Newtonian times. This is general (though wordy and formulaic): "...the discovery and characterization of the universal laws which govern...", but what follows it is characteristic of our physics, not of how physics must be, of its very essence. It would not be fitting in a discussion of Aristotle's physics, for example. But it should be! Second, the proposal includes much to do with the scientific method; this is inefficient (since all that is dealt with in other articles), and gives the impression that these things are timelessly a part of physics, which they are not. In sum, though, I do have the feeling that we can work to a consensus from a standpoint like this. – Noetica 20:46, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
• This is another well written and easy to understand definition that is focused on the direction that it wishes to take, which covers a broad range of views. There are a few minor points that I would object to however: for one, I have never come across the distinction between a "law" and (presumably) a "theory", and I question its importance. I do not think this is of much concern to practicing physicists, but rather the concern of those people who like to categorize physics into "neat and tidy" packages (although I accept that I may be mistaken). Therefore, with the addition that some theories contradict this distinction (which may possibly result in confusing and misleading a reader), I suggest that it either be more elaborately discussed, or removed - either of which means that it should possibly be relegated to the introduction section. My main objection, however, is the prominence given to the energy definition. Nowhere is it explicitly discussed that it is only one possible definition, which will lead the reader to assume it is the definition of physics - which is misleading. Furthermore, the prominence given to the energy definition is unsupported. Whilst I accept that the energy definition is colloquially accepted, even among physicists, its prominence will have to be justified. Concluding, there are a few things that need justification before I would endorse them, but it is otherwise a commendable suggestion. Krea 17:16, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Proposal by M

• Nice and concise, but it's not clear what should go into the Lorem ipsum text. Some phrases ("unknown depths") jar slightly. No acknowledgment of the position of some editors who'd like to see a 'broadphysics' definition included. But this text coincides with my general view of the subject.--MichaelMaggs 18:40, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
• This proposal is sketchy, but has useful features. (It could do with some careful copyediting, too!) An implicit distinction is made between complete determination of the behaviour of systems by the behaviour of their constituents, and the matter of understanding the behaviour of systems. This might be seen as one crux in the disagreements we have had. Getting clear about it might point us to a way forward. Apart from that, I would criticise it as I have criticised MichaelMaggs' proposal: the restriction to matter and energy, etc., means that M is dealing not with physics in general and at all times, but narrowly with physics as it is practised now. Why start that way, in a general article about physics? The focus can be narrowed soon enough (see my own proposal). I will not write "support" or "oppose" here, since we did this exercise on this understanding (see above): "The straw poll won't be a vote". – Noetica 21:02, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
• Contrary to the above, I think that my proposal does the most to unify the two (three) positions. The first sentence is pragmatic, and clarifies the universal "fundamental constituents" with the current and easily-understood "matter and energy". The second sentence fully acknowledges that physics can describe everything, but makes no brash statement in either direction (see also Maggs's 3rd paragraph). I avoid the explicit "study of nature" because this defines science, and it's through the fundamental that physics seeks to explain everything. Some of the objections given are very easily remidied; this poll won't decide the final lead. "Unknown dephts" (the only typo) is easily corrected to "there is much still unknown". "Characterize" was favored over "understand" in discussions, but that too is easy to change. I foresee no difficulty in filling in the lorem ipsum. I see nowhere that my proposal is less clear, complete, introductory, or carefully selective than the others, so my support goes to it. –M^T 02:00, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
• This is yet another easily understandable lead section, although it is perhaps too short and a little awkwardly worded in places (including the self-identified ultimate sentence of the first paragraph). I do have some more urgent objections, however. The first paragraph again, as in Michael's definition, promotes the energy definition without justification to the extent that it misleads the reader into thinking it is the definition of physics. I can also accuse it of being explicitly incorrect: namely, it suggests the unsupported statement that matter and energy are "fundamental", which is not known. This can easily be remedied, however, by appropriately inserting the phrase "currently believed". I also fail to see how the second paragraph incorporates the broad definition: something more explicit, or at least better explained, is required. Finally, a minor point in that I do not understand what is meant by the statement that the classical/quantum distinction is fading. The definition of quantum theories are that they have been quantized, and classical ones in that they have not. Thus, there cannot be an intermediate state. Contrast this to Michael's lead statement that said that the significance of the distinction was fading, rather than the distinction itself, which is at first glance what is being implied (even if it was unintentional). Summarizing, more work needs to be done, including the clarification and justification of points made. Krea 17:16, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Proposal by Joshua Davis

• It's a good way of stating that piece, but requires a whole to be properly evaluated. –M^T 14:01, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
• A good explanatory statement which we could perhaps make use of within the Introduction (ie the next section to be discussed). --MichaelMaggs 18:19, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
• I haven't followed this one, but looking at it now I approve of its general message: the breadth of scope that is essential to physics. This central feature of physics is not dealt with fully or given any articulated explanation (such as I have aimed at), but it's there in embryo. I will not write "support" or "oppose" here, since we did this exercise on this understanding (see above): "The straw poll won't be a vote". – Noetica 21:08, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
• If I understand correctly that Joshua did not add this definition himself, I will abstain from making comments on it. Krea 17:16, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
• I did write this material myself, although someone else moved it to this section. I am perfectly comfortable with any elements of it being added to the page so please take it into consideration. Joshua Davis 02:43, 18 November 2006 (UTC)