Talk:Phoenician alphabet

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is part of the "Writing systems" set of articles nominated for Version 0.7. Discuss this nomination, or see the set nominations page for more details.

I just noticed Page has been vandalised on OCT 23/06.. Not a wiki geek so someone needs to revert it.

	This article falls within the scope of WikiProject Writing systems, a WikiProject interested in improving the encyclopaedic coverage and content of articles relating to writing systems on Wikipedia. If you would like to help out, you are welcome to drop by the project page and/or leave a query at the project’s talk page.
Start	This article has been rated as Start-Class on the Project’s quality scale.
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the Project’s importance scale.

This chart is missing teth, samekh, and tsadi. Are they not attested in that version of the Phoenician alphabet? -phma

No, they are not present in my source. If I find a more complete version I shall update the chart. -- user:Heron

Still not right. You now have gimel twice (C and G), waw twice (F and W), samekh and zayin in the wrong place (they should be after nun and waw respectively), and no teth or tsadi. BTW, the Phoenicians sometimes used the order MNXPOQ instead of MNXOPQ. -phma

I found this link that might be of interest [1].
/ Mats 16:13, 4 Oct 2003 (UTC)

oy, the common descriptor of GIMEL as meaning "camel" is a later change. originally it meant "rabbitstick" (literally, "crooked"), which later was applied to the camel. but camels weren't common until the second millenium BCE, but rabbitsticks were standard hunting equipment and also used as weaponry from the earliest times. em zilch 06:44, 2005 May 27 (UTC)

Seconded. All the resources i've been able to find that give the topic more than a cursory examination seem to point to "camel" as a later interpretation. The precise term varies, but it's usually some kind of bent stick (cane, hunting-stick, and so on). Lucky number 49 17:21, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

---

The current text sais Fenician alphabet can be dated to 3500 BCE, which all my other sources confirem is an ERROR, as it can be dated to 1200 BCE (and the earliest (Semitic) alphabet itself can be dated to around 2000 BC). I am going to correct his error and add an external link to an onlince source. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 14:50, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)

---

Contents 1 Preparing alphabet table 2 Cyrillic 3 Arabic 4 IPA 5 I have made the following changes 6 Teth

[edit] Preparing alphabet table

Phoenician is under ballot for Unicode, but I'm adding the Unicode values to this table. After the ballots close, and Phoenician is formally encoded, I'll replace the table in the article with this one. Evertype 17:40, 2005 Jan 1 (UTC)

Letter	Name	Unicode	Meaning	Transliteration	Corresponding letter in
					Hebrew	Arabic	Greek	Latin
	ʾāleph	𐤀	ox	ʾ	א	ﺍ	Α, α	A, a
	bēth	𐤁	house	b	ב	ﺏ	Β, β	B, b
	gīmel	𐤂	camel	g	ג	ﺝ	Γ, γ	C, c / G, g
	dāleth	𐤃	door	d	ד	ﺩ	Δ, δ	D, d
	hē	𐤄	window	h	ה	ﻩ	Ε, ε	E, e
	wāw	𐤅	hook	w	ו	ﻭ	(Ϝ, ϝ) / Υ, υ	F, f / U, u
	zayin	𐤆	weapon	z	ז	ﺯ	Ζ, ζ	Z, z
	ḥēth	𐤇	fence	ḥ	ח	ﺡ	Η, η	H, h
	ṭēth	𐤈	wheel	ṭ	ט	ﻁ	Τ, τ (Does the original phonecian sound like the Hebrew Tet (English 'T' as in 'Tight') [if so then 'τ' would be the correct Greek transliteration and the correct Hebrew would be ט; or the icelandic Ð (English Th as in 'The', 'Thought' in which case 'θ' would be the correct Greek transliteration and there would be no equivalent Hebrew transliteration, the Icelanding character is labiodental while the Hebrew character is Alveolar - Clarification needed from someone who knows)		T, t
	yōdh	𐤉	arm	y	י	ﻱ	Ι, ι	I, i / J, j
	kaph	ऊ	palm	k	כ	ﻙ	Κ, κ	K, k
	lāmedh	ऋ	goad	l	ל	ﻝ	Λ, λ	L, l
	mēm	ऌ	water	m	מ	ﻡ	Μ, μ	M, m
	nun	ऍ	fish	n	נ	ﻥ	Ν, ν	N, n
	sāmekh	ऎ	fish	s	ס		Ξ, ξ
	ʿayin	ए	eye	ʿ	ע	ﻉ	Ο, ο	O, o
	pē	𐤐	mouth	p	פ	ﻑ	Π, π	P, p
	ṣādē	𐤑	papyrus plant	ṣ	צ	ﺹ	(Ϻ, ϻ)
	qōph	𐤒	monkey	q	ק	ﻕ	(Ϙ, ϙ)	Q, q
	rēš	𐤓	head	r	ר	ﺭ	Ρ, ρ	R, r
	šin	𐤔	tooth	š	ש	ﺱ	Σ, σ	S, s
	tāw	𐤕	mark	t	ת	ﺕ	Τ, τ	T, t

[edit] Cyrillic

I've added a Cyrillic column to the table. Please review and correct. I've tried to add variations of letters that have roots in the old Cyrillic alphabet (Ukrainian Є and І), but not newer derived forms (Ґ, Ў). I haven't addressed some of the obsolete Cyrillic forms, which I think were essentially Greek letters. Don't know if the Yers and Yuses belong here. —Michael Z. 2005-08-11 18:09 Z

[edit] Arabic

imho, it is irrelevant to list the dotted variants of Arabic letters. The point of the table is to compare letter shapes. dab (ᛏ) 11:59, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] IPA

Please add IPA transcriptions to the chart. Alpha Omicron 21:13, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I have made the following changes

1. "qof" can mean either "a monkey" or "an eye of a needle". I think the latter is more probable here, judging from the shape of the ancient letter.
2. "kaf" can mean only "palm of hand" and not "palm" as a plant. drork 05:32, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Teth

Would thorn (Þ) be eligible as the Latin alphabet equivalent of teth? Lemmy Kilmister 15:47, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

No. Phonetically Teth was probably pronounced as a velarized [t]. Think of the difference between the [l] sound in "link", and the [l] sound in "love", the former is a plain [l], while the latter is a velarized [l] ("dark l"). The sound of Teth is basically /t/ with an extra quality of velarization. There are other theories about the way Teth was pronounced, but none of them suggests that it was pronounced like thorn. Graphically speaking, thorn is derived from a Runic symbol, and has no connection to any Phoenician letter. drork 17:00, 13 September 2006 (UTC)