Talk:Phil Ochs

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Contents 1 Improvements 2 Correction 3 Neurosis and Suicide / Anti-Christianity 4 Images 5 Clarinet 6 New York & biography 7 IWW 8 Politics 9 Life in Columbus, Ohio 10 Eliot book 11 major influences 12 Yippie "anthem"? 13 Myspace 14 Conflict of principles

[edit] Improvements

I'll be improving this page soon as part of greater effort to improve all Phil pages generally. This page seems very selective - we get a Dylan quote and weed lyric but no mention of Chicago '68? In addition the individual album pages are below-par - songs about 'how great it is to be American'? Poor Phil Sdrawkcab 01:48, 29 December 2005 (UTC)sdrawkcab

Good on you, Sdrawkcab. (Will you be doing the same for Steve Goodman?) I've reinserted one detail from my days tweaking the stubby version of this piece: "for suggesting (perhaps ironically) that 'smoking marijuana...'"

I realize irony is tough to verify, but merely repeating the lyric implies that Ochs sang in earnest, which to my eye distorts his character and the apparent intent of his song. He's clearly satirizing pot smokers for the duration of that verse; why would the first line be any different? Andersem 02:30, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Technically, "(perhaps ironically)" which I'm about to fix to "(perhaps sarcastically)" isn't wrong. But I would find it highly unlikely that he was being sarcastic. Ochs was great friends with Bob Dylan, who by this time has smoked himself so stupid that he can't remember any of his own songs, and I remember some humorous recordings with others such as Joan Baez where Dylan couldn't remember a lyric and just started humming. But anyways, I also don't recall Ochs being ironic about anything unless it was painstakingly obviously clear he was joking, as with his intro to "Draft Dodger Rag". People would not catch that Ochs was joking about a lyric about Marijuana if he was, so he probably wouldn't be sarastic there. He stayed to politics for that.

KV 06:42, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough, KV. Irony's hard to define, I know, but it's different from sarcasm -- irony being indirect in its meaning, sarcasm being pejoratively indirect. But irony doesn't have to be pejorative; it can be merely self-aware. I think one of the things that sets Ochs apart is his irony, actually: listen to the patter from "Canons of Christianity" and "Ringing of Revolution" on the first (fake) live album. The man was intensely self-aware and willing to poke fun at his own foibles and those around him (Dylan, his audience, the left in general). So I don't think his friendship with pot users is inconsistent with his tongue-in-cheek qualms about pot. Okay, this has definitely veered off topic. I think "irony" is accurate, and better than "sarcasm," but I'll respect your choice here. Andersem 18:28, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Why do you say it was a "fake" live concert? It wasn't recorded live at a concert in Carnegie Hall in 1966? Tom Cod

Yes it was, but the quality was poor and Ochs re-recorded portions of the music in studio for the record. His actual live audience banter, the way he introduced each song, the applause, audience reactions, etc., were real on the record, edited with the new recodings to give the feel of a live concert. (See Schumacher, p. 113ff. , for example.) TVoz 21:00, 22 September 2006 (Sorry, I forgot to sign this at the time I posted it - corrected now.)Tvoz 18:45, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

According to the Schumacher book, Ochs was not a regular pot smoker. Alcohol was by far his drug of choice.

Is there a possibility of adding a pronounciation key to his last name? Coolie 16:55, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Correction

Salvador Allende killed himself, as it says in the article about him on Wikipedia. He was *not* assassinated. Let's see how long this one takes to be fixed.

It could have been fixed at 03:51, 4 January 2006 had you done it yourself instead of complaining about it here. Good going! I have made a change, though from my reading it seems that not everyone agrees that Allende committed suicide, but I'm sure Pinochet's regime saw to it that any evidence to the contrary of their "official story" was eliminated, so we will probably never know for sure. Trent 15:57, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

In the very least it was a type of mental murder if you will. Allende certainly understood what would become of him if he was taken alive by Pinochet.

The facts are clear that Allende died during a battle in the presidential palace during the successful coup by Pinochet. Whoever pulled the trigger, few would consider such an scenario "suicide." Shane Kenyon 21:53, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Um, could you please provide a citation for your assertion that Allende killed himself?

Sure, as the National Lampoon commented at the time, Allende committed suicide by shooting himself twenty-three times while pausing to reload. Tom Cod

The irony is, that may have been closer to the truth than anyone imagined. Now that the post-Pinochet dust has settled, there is some believable testimony from a doctor from the La Moneda infirmary, who says Allende killed himself with an AK-47, one of the few ways to put a large number of bullets into oneself. See our article on Allende and its citations. - Jmabel | Talk 06:49, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

About Allende's politics - although he was certainly a socialist, I think "Marxist" is more accurate. Allende is generally described as the first communist or Marxist to be elected in a democratic election, so I think "Socialist" is not quite enough. Tvoz 19:11, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

"Marxist" is certainly acceptable; "Communist" tends to suggest single-party state communism, which is misleading in Allende's case. - Jmabel | Talk 06:49, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Neurosis and Suicide / Anti-Christianity

I have a father who knows practically an encyclopedia's worth on Phil Ochs and Bob Dylan, and I learned many years ago, from him, that Ochs had a neurotic disorder from when he was young, and eventually succumbed to insanity, claiming he was another man (whose name I forget) who killed Phil Ochs, because he was a pussy who didn't do enough for the struggle. He actually killed himself only after this..... yet it seems that it is absent from the article.

Then, on a note that I know personally from listening to his music.... he was also rather anti-Christian, claiming to have written the first "anti-hymn". His "Ballad of the Carpenter" was written by a fan I believe.... this should be in there somewhere.

Perhaps, also a better organization, the header is much too long and includes the bio.

KV 05:24, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

The name of his 'alter-ego' in his later years was 'John Train'.

Anti-Christian may not be an accurate term. He may have opposed some of the actions of the Church, and against the hypocrisy of those who claimed to be Christians, but didn't adhere to Christian principles, but I don't think any of his songs attacked the tenets of the religion. He even makes reference to Jesus 'spending Christmas in the cold, Kentucky mines."

-No but he did write the song "Canons of Christianity" ("I had a dream last night that God was talking to me; He says, 'Ochs, this is God, over;' 'You've got to be kidding me, Dylan', I replied" (from "Phil Ochs in Concert")) about the hypocrisy of organized Christian religion which was, as it continues to be to a great extent, forced on youth and society. As a student in a "Christian" boarding school at the time, I greatly appreciated it. It should be noted that Ochs himself was sent to a military school, I think it was the Staunton Military Academy (see Marc Eliot's biography of Ochs "Death of a Rebel"). I had the privilege of seeing Ochs in person three times, first at the March on the Pentagon in October 67 when I was 14, then in Chicago at the Democratic Convention the next August and finally in May 1970 at a protest behind the White House after Kent State when he renamed his old civil rights ballad, "Here's to the State of Mississippi," "Here's to the State of Richard Nixon." There are rumors that his death was not a suicide but involved foul play emanating from the U.S. Government in the manner of COINTELPRO as he certainly was high up on the "enemies list" of Nixon and the right wing. Tom Cod

I've done a little reorganising, added some quotes from the notes of the Elektra reissue of All the News That's Fit to Sing/I Ain't Marching Anymore. There's still much to be desired though, especially concerning his illness and also, as you mention, his take on religion. Hestemand 23:44, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Michael Schumacher's book refers to Ochs' father's bipolar disorder and eventual suicide while Ochs was a teenager. This seems relevant to the article as it brings up the possibility of bipolar disorder and suicidal tendencies as a genetic inheritance, as in the cases of Ernest Hemingway and Kurt Cobain. However, neither his sister nor his brother have suffered from these problems, and I do not know of his daughter suffering from these problems.

The above is completely incorrect regarding his father. Schumacher's book clearly says that Jack Ochs, Phil's father, died "suddenly of a cerebral hemorrhage" (p. 57) in 1962, which Phil found out about from his sister Sonny when he called to discuss the possibility of his marrying Alice. Phil was not a teenager, and there was no suicide, according to Schumacher. Jack Ochs did have manic depression, but Schumacher does NOT say that he committed suicide. I removed that assertion from the page. If anyone has other evidence regarding that, please share.Tvoz 09:18, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

_____________________________________

DEVASTED BY JOHN WAYNE'S GREEN BERETS? You can't be serious. Where's the evidence for that assertion? Surely, Ochs had grown up out of that level of naivete long long before the "Green Berets" came out in 68, a movie, like Wayne largely by that point, that was not taken seriously by anyone not a died in the wool rube. Tom Cod

yeah, I thought "devastated" was not quite the right word too and I added a long quote from a Broadside interview to clarify what it was that Phil thought about John Wayne in the era of Vietnam. he was at least "disappointed".Tvoz 21:00, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Images

I have added an image onto the page, taken by my father back in '73. I also got 3 others from him we might be usable.

Original:

Alternative #1: [image deleted]

Alternative #2: [image deleted]

Alternative #3: [image deleted]

Also, I should note that I also borrowed 3 books on Ochs from him and should be able to make some sense of this article soon.

KV 19:04, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clarinet

I don't have a citation handy, but as a youth he played clarinet. Probably should be mentioned. - Jmabel | Talk 18:11, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Schumacher pp 23-26 has discussion of Phil's clarinet playing and other musical talent as a teenager Tvoz 00:13, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I included this in my latest revision. Tvoz 09:18, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New York & biography

I believe that Ochs literally sold the majority of his records in the Greater New York area. Again, no citation handy. I think this stuff is probably all in the Ochs biography Death of a Rebel by Marc Eliot, which I read shortly after it came out 20-odd years ago. A pretty good read; someone working on this article should track it down. - Jmabel | Talk 18:32, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I'll order the book and get on it as soon as possible; I'm tired of looking at this unorganised, unsourced article. Oh let it never be again, I say. -- Hestemand 21:36, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Hope that doesn't cast me as one of the too many angry men. Or the martyrs. - Jmabel | Talk 23:49, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

It's been a long time since I've read Elliot, but I certainly don't remember an assertion that most of Phil's records were sold in the NY area, nor do I think I'd believe it if it's there. (Rather, not that I don't believe that it's true, but I don't believe that Elliot can possibly know it.) Nor, actually, do I think it's relevant. 71.77.12.236 03:52, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Why couldn't Eliot know that? All it would take to be sure on that would be a decent contact at each of two record labels. (Again though, I don't have the book at hand.

Also, though, if true, I think it is relevant. He was a major figure in the New York scene, but in his lifetime he was largely a local figure. If verifiable, I think that is signficant. - Jmabel | Talk 03:44, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Afraid to say that I never got hold of Death of a Rebel (and had to return There But for Fortune before I got much further than early Greenwich Village times due to outside tasks). I will, though, get back to it asap. I hope not too many empty words were said there. On the other subject I agree that it should have been possible to determine where Ochs records sold and where they didn't; and why wouldn't we want to know? -- Hestemand 18:49, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I own both the Eliot and Schumacher books (and the extensive biographical liner notes of "Farewells and Fantasies") - happy to check things in those sources if specific questions are raised. (Nice one, hestemand: "too many empty words were said"...). FWIW, the Schumacher was the far superior work. Tvoz 18:25, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Huh. Haven't read Shumacher. Guess it goes on the (long) list. - Jmabel | Talk 04:49, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I hear that... I will get There But for Fortune again soon and do some work. Might have to wait till Autumn break, but I'll get it done. First priority. Could get Eliot too but the one should do (and I think it'll be a wee easier just going to the library and ordering it than sending it back and forth between Denmark and the States; but admirable thought!) Cheers, Hestemand 14:55, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, I bit the bullet and made some extensive changes working primarily from Eliot, Schumacher, and Kemp: I don't recall them all right now as it's 5AM and I've been at this all night, but I know that I expanded a renamed "Early years" section with more on his childhood and college years; the early NY folk years; added Newport folk festival stuff; in renamed "Later years" section I included the "Gunfight" concerts which was a glaring omission before; fleshed out lyrical examples of his not abandoning topical commentary when he went for musical diversity; expanded discussion of the 1975 final War is OVer rally; throughout included more about Dylan, Jim GLover, Bob Gibson, Sean Penn, Alice Ochs, Smothers Bros., others; edited and clarified Legacy section; and probably some other things. I'm sure it can still use work, but I think this is finally now getting closer to an accurate and complete article about Phil Ochs. Tvoz 09:18, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Bravo, Tvoz, bloody good job, good to see it going somewhere. Hope to join you soon. Hestemand 09:42, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Hestemand - it's truly a labor of love. We'll keep working at it to give Phil the article he deserves. Tvoz 15:13, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I did some more rearranging and editing on the page tonight, shortening the introductory section by moving some of the material to more appropriate inclusion in the detail sections below the Contents box. A few of the items were moved into footnotes as they seemed parenthetical (such as the Yippies' use of Ochs songs in their publicity material - that could also be expanded in the Yippies article if anyone has more on that) or into a new "professional affiliations" section for AFTRA and ASCAp - I'd like to see that section added to if anyone has good information about memberships that Ochs had. PLEASE NOTE that I did not remove things, I just rearranged them and also expanded sections. Tvoz 05:58, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] IWW

I'm pretty sure he was an IWW member. Odd to see that omitted. Certainly more notable than the recently added AFTRA membership (or the NY Cabaret card that he doubtless held). - Jmabel | Talk 06:57, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I wrote the IWW; Mark Damron's reply began "Like you, I have always heard that Ochs was a member, but I do not know for a fact that it is true. The records in our current database do not date far enough back to confirm or deny." He says that the IWW archives are at the Walter P. Reuther Library at Wayne State University and the relevant archivist is William Lefevre. I'll follow this up some time. - Jmabel | Talk 23:20, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Lefevre says he has no evidence that Ochs was a Wob. So it seems rather unlikely that we will turn anything up. - Jmabel | Talk 21:53, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Politics

"It is generally believed that Ochs usually considered himself to be a democratic socialist" is awfully vague. We can say without a doubt that he was one of the few celebrities who participated in the demonstrations at Grant Park and Lincoln Park during the 1968 Democratic Convention (most of the rest were scared away by the prospect of Daley's police) and that he was sympathetic to Salvador Allende (he spent considerable time in Allende's Chile, and was close to Victor Jara). This should be citable from Eliot. - Jmabel | Talk 07:02, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I clarified the Chicago part and reworked the Chile part of the page but left the "democratic socialist" until I (or anyone) have a chance to research itTvoz 09:18, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

See "Correction" above for comment about Allende.Tvoz 19:14, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Life in Columbus, Ohio

In his song "Boy in Ohio," he says he "rode [his] bike down Alum Creek Drive," and that "now a freeway covers the fields / where I used to be so happy." If this was authentically biographical, this would place his boyhood home on the southeast side of the city, on the edge of Bexley; the freeway was I-70. Cheers, Postdlf 16:57, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

The family lived in an apartment on the hospital property of Benjamin Franklin Hospital (Eliot, p.18). Not sure if they later lived elsewhere. - Jmabel | Talk 04:43, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Where was that located? I don't think that's existed for awhile. Postdlf 14:15, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't know. I'm just saying what Eliot writes (found the book but I'm afraid I'm too busy to really work heavily on this). - Jmabel | Talk 05:10, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Eliot book

I found my old copy of Death of a Rebel. If someone will promise (really promise) to read through it and work on this article, and really can't get hold of a copy, I'll mail it to you, just so long as you will promise (really promise) eventually to mail it back. Email through my user page if you want to take this on. - Jmabel | Talk 05:10, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Someone added a 1989 edition of the Eliot book to the bibliography and changed some page refs - I am using the original 1979 book, and would like to know how the 1989 edition differs from the 1979, if at all. I had not heard about that newer edition. thanksTvoz 09:18, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] major influences

I removed Martin Luther King, Jr. from the sentence that lists Ochs' "major infuences" in no way to disrespect Dr. King. Although I am certain that Ochs greatly admired Dr. King, was moved by him, and thought him to be very important - and that he was devastated by his assassination - I think he belongs in the same category as Robert Kennedy whom Ochs also respected, admired, loved - and was devastated by his murder - but not as a major influence on him. (Appropriately, both of their murders are referenced later in the article as contributing factors to Phil's depression and despair in 1968.) I think "major influences" are those who played a formative role in his youth -- like the musicians and actors listed -- or had overwhelming significance to him in young adulthood, which is why I added JFK. It is well documented that JFK was enormously important to the young Ochs - among other things he wrote two songs about his death, and made reference to him in other songs. So I hope no one takes offense at my removal of Dr. King. If there are sources that can be supplied that I haven't come across to verify King as a major influence, I'd certainly want to see his name reinstated.Tvoz 21:00, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Yippie "anthem"?

The Yippies also used several of his tunes as sort-of-anthems in their media, in particular the anti-war "I Ain't Marching Anymore".

Ok, one (only one) of the times a less grammatical version of that sentence was removed last night was by me, and I apologize for not posting a note here about it - I intended to, but forgot. I see it has been made grammatical, but I question this sentence in any case. Frankly, I don't really know what you are talking about - what are "their media", and in what way were Ochs' songs used as "anthems"? Do you have some kind of citation for this? Yes, Schumacher talks about Phil singing "I Ain't Marching" at a rally in Chicago, but it was not just a Yippie rally, and people burned their draftcards in response, which touched him - but I don;t recall, nor have I seen any references, that the Yippies had any anthems, Ochs' or otherwise, or that they somehow adopted his song which you are suggesting. It might be true (although metaphoric) to say that "I Aint Marching Anymore" was an anthem of the anti-war generation - certainly Phil sang it many many times at rallies and marches and concerts and we responded to it in the way one might respond to an anthem - but that's not the same thing as saying it was a Yippie anthem or sort-of-anthem. So I would suggest this sentence be removed or substantively changed. Tvoz 20:00, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

For your general interest, here is another pro-Yippie documentary (but this one doesn't call itself an "Official Statement"), that also features more than one Phil Ochs tune as a sort of anthems, in addition to actual footage of his famous 1968 Chicago performance for the Democrats' Convention, a real must see! (But, I don't know if you can use it in the article!) 70.16.252.235 23:53, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3077305241438405731

[edit] Myspace

Could we please not have the myspace up here? It's not his. Also he would have been aganist it.

Excuse me, whoever you are, but how would you know whether or not he would have been against the myspace page which was set up by a fan? Sorry, but that's absurd. I think he would have liked it. Equally absurd. And anyway, Wikipedia doesn't take into consideration whether a subject would like something on his page or not. I'm reinstating it with an indication that it's a tribute page (I mean, obviously)- but it has music and photos that we can't post here and other worthwhile information and I don't see why it should be removed from here. Anyone else have an opinion? (By the way, discussing before shooting is a good idea, in the future.) Tvoz 04:38, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

It's a myspace fansite, so fails WP:EL on TWO counts. Veinor (ヴエノル^(talk)) 04:50, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

wp:el is a guideline, not a hard-and-fast rule. I asked for discussion about this very minor item on this page that a lot of editors have put a lot of work into. This item has been standing on the page for a while, and your coming in here and ignoring my request for discussion beofre removing it is out of line. This was hardly an emergency. And posting threatening templates isn't necessary either - all I did was reinstate text that has been here for a while, and ask for discussion so we can reach consensus. You and the anonymous editor above are the ones who are removing this without waiting for discussion. Tvoz 05:14, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I really think a link to MySpace is a bad idea for many reasons.

• We explictly discourage links to MySpace
• There are other external links that can provide non-free photos etc. So if the link is removed it not a substantial loss.
• Since it tries to be put up as his page we do not know who is really responsible for it which really means I cannot regard it as a stable link.
• The MySpace page is infringing on the copyrights of his music which we should not encourage.
• It is violating the terms of MySpace Music and the account will probably be deleted soon anyways.

So in any event while I am open to the idea that there could be exception for MySpace "artist" pages in some situations; I do not think we should link to one which is obviously not belonging to the artist as it causes too many other problem regarding copyrights and stability.--Birgitte§β ʈ Talk 17:20, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm with Birgitte on this. - Jmabel | Talk 23:55, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Honestly I think this entire discussion is a gross waste of time - and frankly think the time could be much better spent by all of us in making this article and others better pieces. What difference does it make if there are a few extra external links, as long as the content of the piece is good and the links are relevant? It's not worth the time it takes to write up these notes. This is a classic example of counting how many angels can stand on the head of a pin - minutiae that means nothing to anyone, and neither makes an article better nor worse. So fine - I'm not reinstating the links, but I think it would be good for editors to stop and think a little about why this has become such an issue. For the record, the Ochs Myspace Music page has been there for well over a year - far more stable than just about anything on Wikipedia! - and I don't know, nor do you, if it is violating anything. The owner of the page may well have permission of the estate to post music, as I believe it is maintained by the person who also maintains the listserv which has direct contact with the family. But as for me, I don't really care one way or another if it's listed as an external link. What I care about is that the article reflect the artist - his history, his influence, his legacy - and I think the text does that pretty well (although always improvable). And the fact that he is dead is relevant, because this article is one of the dwindling ways that a new generation can find out about his work, and that is what we're trying do in building an encylcopedia, I believe. But, again, if that link is so bothersome, fine. I still believe that there is a diffeence between a guideline and an official policy, and I think this guideline is being poorly applied here. But so be it, as far as I am concerned. Tvoz 00:49, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Conflict of principles

To User:Jmabel: Joe, regarding the Ochs video clip: it seems to me there is a fundamental conflict of principles at work here. You may recall I worked on the paragraph regarding "Here's to the State" a few weeks ago and quoted the line as "the speeches of the Spiro". Someone came along and, presumably having listened to a recording or having read the printed lyrics, changed that to "the speeches of the President", the way it originally appeared on record and lyric sheets. I came back and clarified that Ochs had further improved the lyrics to the Spiro line. So far so good. I don't recall if anyone asked for a reference, but surely someone might - and it would violate a Wiki principle for me to say I personally heard him sing the lyrics as "Spiro" on more than one occasion, because although that is totally true, that's original research and personal experience, and Wiki policy doesn't allow that. So I went out looking for something more objective than my personal recollection. I found it in a video clip of Ochs himself actually singing those lyrics. Verifiable proof positive, not original research, not my memory or experience. Right? So now my verification of a fact that is in the article is removed (leaving my claim that there were new lyrics citation-less) because of some kind of principle that there might possibly be a copyright question - of a non-professional video recording of a rally held 35 years ago that has been posted elsewhere. I didn't upload the video to Wikipedia, I just pointed to it. It is not an extraneous external link, it is an integral, relevant citation for that section of the article. So I have to check to see if I can find out if the person who posted what looks to be a home video, on another system, has followed Wikipedia's policies on copyright? Frankly I think it would qualify anyway as fair use, but isn't this getting out of hand? Do you guys want verification and citations or not? I've attempted a work-around by saying one place where those lyrics were sung and indicating that the clip is available on You TUbe without listing the link, but that seems irritatingly unhelpful to readers, and more importantly, counter-productive to the purpose of the encyclopedia. I don't expect you to have an answer to this, but I would hope you and other editors/admins would think through this conflict of principles between one which is actually a rule (the need for verifiable citations) and the other which is a guideline (a vague discomfort with the possibility that YouTube videos in general might violate something) and consider whether there is room for interpretation here. Thanks. Tvoz 06:15, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

It's definitely a problem either way. When you say "you guys": please remember, I don't somehow make policy or guidelines. And in this case, frankly, I'm getting sick of how this is being fought over. Very recently, WP:EL had an explicit statement that there were to be no links to YouTube. Now, when I went back there to show you why I did what I did, I find that has been removed. Believe me, this frustrates me no less than it frustrates you.

So, restore it, and if they don't change policy or guidelinse again, it can stay.

I don't spend a lot of time hammering out policy except in a few specific areas (foreign language issues: as a polyglot, I'm at odds with those who want all sources to be in English and think that authors whose works are not available in English cannot be important; reliable sources: yes, that study published in an academic journal trumps the article on someone's blog; also, I pretty much wrote the guidelines on What to do when a reference link "goes dead"). But as an admin, I'm expected to enforce them. It is incredibly frustrating when I'm told "revisit WP:EL, there have been important changes" and then a few days later those changes have been reverted. - Jmabel | Talk 00:16, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I hear ya, Joe, and thanks for your comments. In fact WP:EL is a mess, made so by over-zealous folk who aren't thinking the whole issue through, in my opinion. I didn't mean to imply that you were responsible - I know you're just trying to administer policy across the board and I appreciate that, but I'd just suggest to you (as I've said above and elsewhere) that we all should try to keep in mind the difference between WP:5P - clearly stated as the only absolute rules - and these other evolving guidelines which by definition should be open to interpretation. And I think until it's all settled down, it would make sense to hold off on enforcement because it may well mean having to go back and undo lots of changes and unruffle lots of feathers.Tvoz 00:31, 25 November 2006 (UTC)