Talk:Phalanx formation

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WikiProject Echo has identified Phalanx formation as a foreign language featured article. You may be able to improve this article with information from the French language Wikipedia.

Contents 1 French Article 2 copyright stuff on illustration 3 buttspikes 4 Hoplon vs. Aspis 5 hoplite drift 6 Origin 7 Not that way 8 Revisions and Additions 9 Right foot or Left foot forward? 10 "A Spartan Hoplite in distinctive uniform panoply" image.

[edit] French Article

Even though the tag is at the top of the page, I think it good to repeat that there is in fact a French article. There are only a few active translators at the moment, but there are small amounts of good English information not found on the actual English page. I am asking anyone interested to take a look at the work-in-progress at Messedrocker's page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Messedrocker/Phalanx-fr2en#), and merge anything into this article that is unique to the French one. Thanks!

-ExNoctem 23:26, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] copyright stuff on illustration

The legal stuff from the official website seems to indicate that screenshots from the game can be used for non-profit, educational or research purposes, so long as sufficient legal acknowledgement is given to The Creative Assembly, and a license for the game has been purchased.

I have also tried contacting them via email to get express permission, but after several tries, and no response from them, I've given up.

see http://www.totalwar.com/community/legal.htm —ChrisU

I've removed the image. Much though I love RTW, and more historically accurate than most popular strategy games though it may be, it's still lacking in realism. RTW's portrayal of phalanx is wrong—phalangites held the sarissa with both hands, not just one, to start with. And the ranks were much deeper, and the units were far wider. —Simetrical (talk) 02:17, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)

i would like to add that Rome total war doesnt portray the phalanx correctly because formations were much larger, running a game with 3-5 thousand troops in total creates lag especially when quality is high, thus it is a scaled down version. and i do believe when engaging in combat they use both hands, only 1 hand is used when they are at ease

I disagree, This article is intended to merely provide an outline of the key properties of a phalanx formation - something that I think the illustration helps with - not to discuss hoplite phalanges specifically.

Granted, phalanges are a hallmark of Hellenistic warfare, but they are far from exclusive to that period/region, if the reader is looking for the kind of specificity that you mention, he would be better served by reading the article on Macedonian phalanges.

Secondly, even when discussing the properties of Hellenistic phalanges, such broad-brushed statements as 'phalangites held the sarissa with both hands, not just one' are quite misleading. The length of the sarissa cannot be known with absolute certainty because of the vagaries of different regional units of measurement (every damn village seemed to have it's own idea of how long a cubit was), but it is largely agreed that the length of spear varied throughout history from as little as 8 to as many as 21 feet in length (W. W. Tarn covers this very well in some of his books on the topic) and for most of that time, the spear was short and light enough that it was used single handed, and with a shield in the other. It is because of that kind of confusion that I backed out some of my earlier edits and tried to keep this page very general.

In short, I think your decision was a little premature; I think that the reader is best served by some kind of illustration so that they might gain a better understanding of exactly what a phalanx looked like, and the screenshot taken from RTW is the best that I can think of in which the copyright issue is at least reasonably clear. Perhaps the image should be restored, but with a caption stating that the formation tended to be of considerably greater depth and bredth?

I will wait to hear from you before taking any action.

ChrisU 00:46, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

While the length of a cubit may have varied, the sarissa was never eight feet long. There were other polearms of that length that were used by various kinds of non-Macedonian phalanxes, but those weren't sarissas (at least, not in the common sense—perhaps some scholars use the term differently). In any case, the screenshot you posted was clearly of a long pike, which would have been impossible to hold in one hand in the matter portrayed. —Simetrical (talk) 02:51, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Fine, whatever. My point was that the purpose of this article and of the illustration is to convey the key properties of what a phalanx is. Specific examples of armies that employed phalanges are better covered elsewhere and linked to from this entry.

Needless pedantry about spear length, helmet style, shield weight, color of greaves, Steel, Bronze, Iron, pointy-twig, Greek, Macedonian, Korean, Algerian, outer-Mongolian, Timbuk-Tooian, whilst certainly important elsewhere, are wasted in this forum and benefit nobody. ChrisU 03:17, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Your point is taken. I'm restoring the image with more complete copyright information and a description noting a few main inaccuracies. I might replace it with an RTW picture with the phalangites arranged sixteen ranks deep and lots of ranks long later. —Simetrical (talk) 22:06, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Cool, it's nice when a good compromise can be reached. I did fiddle about with screenshots of much wider phalanges, but I found that the more men in the picture, the more the detail was lost in the resultant forest of spears. Please feel welcome to replace the picture with a better example if you can, though. ChrisU 23:07, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

To me, the image looks a little tacky, and the caption more so. The Finnish Site's images look fine to me. Bluring of real history and video game history makes me a bit uncomfortable. However realistic a video game might be, it was still made to look cool and make money. Kyle543 09:01, May 16, 2005 (UTC)

Video game or not, the image is a pretty accurate representation of a Macedonian phalanx. The Finnish phalanx images look a lot tackier to me, personally. The only reason to use the Finnish images is to avoid possible marginal copyright issues, IMO. Any other opinions? —Simetrical (talk) 00:41, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

The first picture from the Finnish page is a pretty good representation of a phalanx, the second doesn't tell the reader anything. I've read and re-read the copyright stuff for R:TW and am convinced that there is no issue - they are actually extraordinarily generous when it comes to any kind of educational or research use of the software.

I know I'm restating myself here, but I think that if we are going to change the illustration, it's more important that we select something that clearly represents the properties of a phalanx, rather than something that is an accurate historical representation. Although I don't feel that the R:TW image is ideal, my vote is for leaving it as is for now. ChrisU 16:21, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

I my game information it says that the hoplites held the sarissa in both hands and that the sheild in the game is supposed to be buckled on, i have conducted an edit saying that the shield may have been buckled(inaccurate graphics i guess)

I've removed the image. Let's all take a deep breath and step back. An image from a video game, any video game, DOES NOT BELONG IN AN ARTICLE ABOUT HISTORY. That's just STUPID. I swear to god I think you people just do things just to generate drama. What's wrong with you? If you want to revert the image, go ahead. But know this: you, as a person who thinks "video games = real history!!1", you are clearly still in middle school. And I am 20 and unemployed as hell, so I have all the time in the world to revert your edits. Your move, Peggy.

sigh I don't even know where to begin with this one. Discarding an illustration simply because of the context from which it was drawn seems to be stupid in the extreme to me. The only thing stupider is threatening to camp on an article and revert any edit without listening to arguments contrary to your (misplaced, IMO) beliefs simply because, as you say, you've got nothing better to do.

Nobody was claiming that "video games = real history!!11one OMGLOL", what they were claiming was that the illustration provided a reasonably accurate representation of what a phalanx would look like. Secondly, this isn't an article on history, it's an article on what a phalanx formation is, that point has been done to death already if you'd just read the discussion page before jumping in.

I've left the article unchanged, the very idea of going head to head with an unemployed 20 year old with midschool-level reading comprehension terrifies me. I'll let the others decide what to do about it.

Image restored. We've been over this before but I'll repeat it for the guy who arbitrarily removed it and then flew into a rant: an illustration benefits the article and it's readers, although I'm not wild about the source either it's the best (most informative) that we've got in which the copyright issues are at least reasonably clear. If you can come up with anything better, I'd love to see it.

Also, to reinforce the point made in the earlier reply to your rant above, this article doesn't pretend to be an historical article, merely a description of what a phalanx formation was/is; FWIW, though, the game in question has been used in a number of historical documentary series presented by the history channel, so the usage/source of the illustration is not without prescident.

If you disagree with me, fine, we'll discuss it and perhaps reach a compromise but your previous attempt at discourse was far from constructive. ChrisU 09:22, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

I am relatively new to wikipedia, yet I have also my part to say on this (controversial?) article.

Many of the battles you mention seem to have been inspired by the game as well, as if you were simply telling the story of a virtual campaign you faught there. I would not mind if this information was actually true, but I believe a better statement could be written. I would also site more sources. This article merely sounds extremily ambiguous.

For instance, the information you provided on the battle of Battle of Pydna appears to be incorrect. Although I have not checked any trustworthy sources yet, the Battle of Pydna article (which, unlike yours, states its sources) informs us that the Roman and Macedonian cavalry were approximately of the same size (4,000 men). Even more surprisingly, this article tells us that the Roman cavalry played a minor role, and was accused of cowardice, as the roman infantry defeated most of the Macedonian phalanxes. Thus, it seems that this battle was NOT won because of any "flanking" by the cavalry, like your article would suggest. I have not changed or edited the article, unlike some here who seem to take this debate a little too personally. Yet if this information is false, I suggest we remove it as quickly as possible.

Also, I believe that to refer to a video game in order to complete an encyclopedic article is very unacademic, unprofessional and somehow a disgrace to any encyclopedia. As wikipedians I believe we are responsible for making every article as good as it can be, and to be honest, this article does not appear as trustworthy. This is not a documentary from the History Channel. When I first saw this article, I was not attracted seeing video game screenshots. What does that have to do with such an old military concept such as the phalanx? I would rather post a sketch, or a real illustration, as it has been proposed before in the finnish article.

Thanks for considering my reply, remember I'm only posting my views. Keep up the good work, Mr. Chris --Ludvig 17:53, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Furthermore, I believe your screenshot does not properly show the rectangular aspect of the phalanx formation - it rather shows endless lines of soldiers succeeding each other.

This picture, that does not appear to be copyrighted, would make a better illustration (unfortunately, it won't fit this page): phalanx formation

Again, I strongly suggest you change your picture and include more academic references. --Ludvig 18:15, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

I added the comment that the sarissa was probably held over the shoulder, rather than under, as this is what I was taught in a class on the Alexandrian period at Uni. I believe I read an article which said this aswell - with great pictures - but can't remember the article's name.Hegar 12:04, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] buttspikes

It might also be worth mentioning that the spears used in Hellenistic phalanges had a spike on the butt. The men at the back of the phalanx (those with their spears pointing upwards) would use the buttspike to finish off wounded enemies laying on the battlefield as the phalanx advanced over them, or as a backup if the spearpoint at the front broke.

I tried fitting a sentence or two in at various points, but everything I tried seemed to break the flow of the article or seemed like a digression. ChrisU 23:07, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Hoplon vs. Aspis

Great article, although I wouldn't mind if it went on and on, particularly into strategy. I like the historical references a lot. Anyhow, I don't believe that the Hoplite's shield is actually called a hoplon, or that the name is derived from it. I could be wrong, but I believe the shield is properly referred to as an "aspis", and that "hoplon" is a somewhat generic term for weaponry or military equipment, thus making the hoplite a sort of "man at arms". If I'm right and it is an error, it seems to be a popularly reproduced one at least.

If that is what you feel, then you are free to add a mention of that fact. We must keep in mind, however, that "hoplon" helps provide a neat (if ahistorical) classification of shields by way of contrasting it with the oblong thureous and the smaller pelte carried by both later phalangites and the peltasts proper. 202.53.251.26 16:21, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

This article seems inconsistent with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspis:

"An aspis (Ancient Greek Ασπις, IPA [aspis]) is the generic term for the word shield. The aspis, which is carried by Greek infantry (hoplites) of various periods, It is referred as hoplon"

[edit] hoplite drift

I've removed this sentence because a google search of "hoplite drift" reveals only one result: wikipedia

[edit] Origin

Makedonia,this edit of yours is without any edit summary. I would appreciate it if you could give a reason for it. My revert was accompanied with an edit summary which I think was fully informative of why I reverted you. Your reversion was not, so I am asking you here. Why did you revert back with no explanation? Just to keep some consistency, I include the edit summary which you did not care to answer:

no dude, the Macedonian Phalanx was a later modification to the phalanx formation that sought to take advantage of the sarissa length.

I stick to this edit summary, the phalanx was first devised in mainland Greece, and later the Macedonians adapted it to take advantage of the very long pike that they used (the sarissa). This is also mentioned in the body of the article. Could you please discuss this so as to avoid a revert war? --Michalis Famelis 20:59, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Not that way

The Roman never would have dared to attack. A Phalanx only could be breaken up with the assistance of bowmans and other help. I wouldn't use the picture without further comment. Foreigner 09:40, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I believe the image is strictly to be taken as an abstract image rather than a historical view, barring the fact that the Romans didn't exactly encounter Greek phalanges very often. There are occasions where Romans have attacked phalanges and won by breaking through the formation (eg. the fall of Macedon), so the situation isn't exactly impossible either. In any respect, let the article do the talking. --Scottie theNerd 11:03, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Having archers from Crete, elephants and Numidian cavalry the Romans could dare, for sample in the Battle of Cynoscephalae. The situation as shown in the picture is absolutly impossible, eher wird ein Österreicher bundesdeutscher Bundeskanzler. Leinwand. Foreigner 13:10, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

They wouldn't need to attack with legionary ground forces - any roman commander would withdraw his flexible, fast legionaries to the wings and fill up the centre with javilineers and skirmishes. this forces the phalanx to advance or retreat. If they advance, they forfeit the advantage of total defensibility and can be drawn onto more difficult terrain or bottlenecked. If they stand still, they risk being cut down by the skirmishers. If you add cavalry to th equation, it becomes more complicated, but a sensible roman infantry commander holds all the cards and has all the initiative in this situation. Malastare

[edit] Revisions and Additions

I think thats a little bit better but needs some revision and editing to become truly unbiased - also, some of my prose is a little clunky in this article trying to address too much at once. Some more opinions are needed on the sections about society and culture (which I think should be mentioned in any article on the phalanx) and obviously anything apocryphal needs to be addressed.Malastare

when you actually think about it with their shields, if the sarrissa is inpaled on the shield then they are able to push, breaking it or making it useless and then attacking with swords,

[edit] Right foot or Left foot forward?

The image depicts the soldiers having their right foot foward. However, having your left foot foward while thrusting with your right hand affords greater stability (like in boxing or MMA). Also, the body would face to the right, supporting the claim that the formation would naturally drift right.71.139.173.245 03:57, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "A Spartan Hoplite in distinctive uniform panoply" image.

This image is from "Warfare in the Classical World" by John Warry. According to the credits, the color figures (of which this image is one) are by Jeff Burn, copyright Salamander Books, Ltd. The ISBN for the book is: 0-8061-2794-5, and the copyright is 1980.