Talk:Persephone
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This entry still reads like a page out of Bulfinch's Mythology. It needs to be entirely rethought. Wetman 19:38, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- Well...what are the problems, specifically? And what's with all these mythology articles saying so-and-so is a "life-birth-death" god? I thought that was an outdated argument. Adam Bishop 23:31, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- Yeah, someone seems to have got bee in their bonnet about the eniautos daimon hypothesis and went around pasting it in as accepted fact everywhere. A few months ago I tried to rephrase most of them in neutral POV. I just found a snippy remark here about Frazer-doubters being a "handful of Christian apologists." *Sigh*. Rephrased in neutral POV and moved to end of article. Bacchiad 00:35, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Perhaps the entry needs a separate section on Persephone/Demeter aside from the Olympian context into which they fit so uncomfortably. Wetman 01:11, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)
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[edit] "Some sources say..."
"Some sources also say that, since kind-hearted Demeter did not want the people to starve in winter, she taught them how to harvest and store food; other sources do not mention this." The source is apparently My Big Coloring Book of Heathenish Myths. One of Demeter's epithets is "implacable." All genuine Greek myth has specific sources in literature, in ritual or in iconography. We can't just invent stuff like this any more. --Wetman 00:05, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Distracting blank spaces
Formatting that encases the framed table of contents in text, in just the way a framed map or image is enclosed within the text, is now available: {{TOCleft}} in the HTML does the job.
Blank space opposite the ToC, besides being unsightly and distracting, suggests that there is a major break in the continuity of the text, which may not be the case. Blanks in page layout are voids and they have meanings to the experienced reader. The space betweeen paragraphs marks a brief pause between separate blocks of thought. A deeper space, in a well-printed text, signifies a more complete shift in thought: note the spaces that separate sub-headings in Wikipedia articles.
A handful of thoughtless and aggressive Wikipedians revert the "TOCleft" format at will. A particularly aggressive de-formatter is User:Ed g2s
The reader may want to compare versions at the Page history. --Wetman 20:24, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
Why does Kore redirect to this page? Shouldn't it be a page of its own, since it's a general topic?
[edit] The childless divine couple
"Persephone and Hades are notable as the only divine couple besides Aphrodite and Hephaestus who did not produce children." That's three Olympians out of twelve already... This is not informative, aside from the glimpsed misperceptions of what these pairings might have signified to an ancient Greek. They are not akin to "getting married and having children." --Wetman 17:14, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Kore
Why does Kore currently redirect here? The only part of this entire article that even mentions "kore" is a single, unexplained time in the first line; the name is never detailed. A kore is a generic term for "young woman" in Greek, and is chiefly used as the female counterpart to the kouros statues. Why not have "Kore" redirect to "Kouros" or give it its own article instead of having it redirect? We don't have kouros redirect to Apollo, after all. -Silence 12:02, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Which article is right...
This article says Persephone ate 6 pomegranate seeds while the article about Demeter says Persephone ate 4. It would be nice to resolve this discrepancy.
- Since the number varies in the retellings it would be unwise to become distracted by the "number" of seeds. The discrepency is irresolvable, for the Greeks had no triumphant "orthodoxy" to burn all dissenting texts. --Wetman 02:57, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
- It was probably 6, because Hades punished her for the amount of seeds she ate, half a year. Fall and winter. --Kookoo275 05:59, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
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- An excellent example of my point. The Greek calendars had no "autumn" season. --Wetman 04:44, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] The King Must Die
What is this book being used as a source for ancient myths? Why does it matter what Mary Renaut writes about Theseus and Persephone? Adam Bishop 01:22, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
- And I believe this article is about the ancient Greek/Roman mythological characters. If there are citations that support Ms. Renaut's take on it as being based in Greek/Roman myth, then it would belong here (with those citations). But barring, that it is in a novel does not serve as a citation and it shouldn't be here. Make sense? John (Jwy) 02:20, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
- Much as I've enjoyed the book, I'd have to agree. --Wetman 06:05, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
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- I hope we hear from the editors. I plan to edit tomorrow and set up some sort of reference to The King Must Die article and move some of that information over there.
[edit] The King Must Die
Well when i was reading the Theseus page, it did say that the King Must Die, even though it was a novel, was a reliable source depicting the adventures of Theseus. YamBond
- generally faithful to the spirit and flavor doesn't make me feel good about counting on it for an authority for an encyclopedia. Note: I'm not saying its a bad book or anything. I have not read it. Its just that it is a novel.
A section similar to the one in Theseus about the book that discusses the differences would seem more appropriate. John (Jwy) 01:51, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
- It is not an ancient source, and therefore invalid. It's a pop culture reference. Proserpine 06:06, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
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- Deus ex machina John (Jwy) 16:44, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Mercy?
I have a problem with the phrase "she only showed mercy once". We are talking about somebody associated with HADES here, anyone who has studied these myths would see that he is highly possessive. It is not her luxury to let his possessions go (it was hard enough striking the bargain to let her go for half the year). -- 69.248.43.27 13:59, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
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- Persephone as Queen of the Underworld appears to precede Hades. A good place to bein is KerenyiElesusis: Archetypal Image of Mother and Daughter (available in paperback). --Wetman 02:57, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] She who destroys light?
Where does that come form? I have only been able to find sources that say her name is related to the words "destroy" or "to murder" but no references to light.
- According to an etymology book, "Perse" roughly means "destroy" and is the root of names like "Perseus" and "Persephone". "Phone" means sound and looks similar to "photo" which means light. Unless her name is Persephoto, I think "Persephone" can roughly mean "destroyer of sound". I read in Doris Orgel's "My Mother's Daughter" that Persephone means "bringer of destruction", though I think the etymology book is more accurate.
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- Well, you can't just look up words in an etymology book and decide that Persephone's name actually means "destroyer of sound" through superficial resemblance to other words. That's obviously not what her name means. It probably isn't even a Greek name. However, this sort of etymology is long attested in classical and medieval writings, so if some ancient author says something like that, then we can definitely quote it to show what the Greeks thought her name meant. I'm not sure where "destroyer of light" comes from though, so we should probably remove the etymology entirely. Adam Bishop 02:10, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Info box
I notice that on high resolution monitors the info box for this page pops out to the left of the picture of Persephone, and doesn't look very good. Does anyone have enough editting experience to attempt to fix this? I think a simple solution might be to swap the position of the top picture with one of the two pics on the page with a smaller verticle dimension, this would prevent the infobox from overlapping it. Just my 2 cents, I wasn't sure if anyone else had made an initiative to fix this yet. Stardust8212 20:53, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Children of Persephone
I removed Iacchus as Persephone's son, as he seems to be the son of Zeus and Demeter. I also added that Zagreus was also often seen as the child of Zeus and Demeter, and not Persephone (although sometimes Persephone was thought to be the mother).--The Great Honker 20:54, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Fine mess
Well, this is a fine mess! It looks as though it used to be an article, but somehow everything has gotten all mixed around. Someone needs to straighten it out and give it a good edit. I can't do it right now but someone should. I notice the main star of the event, the picture, has gone away, and who knows when it will be back, if ever. I found this other one, which I put in. What's the box doing down the bottom? Have we got some sort of contention here? If so, contend somewhere else, will you?Dave 02:31, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Lourdes!
"The grotto in Lourdes, where the Blessed Virgin Mary is reported to have appeared in 1858, was previously a shrine to the Goddess Persephone." No, this hasn't been "reported". Unsupported by any archaeology. Well-meaning? or perhaps a hoax.--Wetman 04:41, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
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- As yet I haven't been able pin down an on-line source that proves that the shrine was dedicated specifically to Persephone but the following excerpt, from a contemporary traditional catholic viewpoint, does allude to it: "BIBLE AND LOURDES ROSARY AND LOURDES" "In the niche of the Grotto where Mary will appear there was a square stone of different composition from the Grotto which apparently at one time was used for pagan sacrifices. How appropriate and meaningful for Mary to stand on that stone since she is the one who came to crush the serpent's head through her Son." http://www.ewtn.com/library/Prayer/ROSLOURD.HTM The chance of any archaeological evidence ever being unearthed is extremely unlikely since it now regarded as one of the holiest catholic shrines in the world and there is no particular interest in proving such a past use of the grotto. I suspect that the link with Persephone, if there ever was one, would have come from "graffiti" on the cave walls that will have long since been removed. GoldenMeadows 17:49, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
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