Category talk:People of the Three Kingdoms

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This category was created to replace the former Heroes of the Three Kingdoms. The discussion leading up to the renaming is included below. --Plastictv 15:31, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Category:Heroes of the Three Kingdoms

The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category or categories above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was Rename Category:People of the Three Kingdoms ∞Who?¿? 08:27, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

i believe that this category should be renamed to "Personages of the Three Kingdoms" because

  • While i do agree that in popular Chinese literature and culture, the people living in the Three Kingdoms period were generally known as "heroes", regardless of their achievements or characters. However, it is unacceptable to term them so here because Wikipedia is not a fiction or novel, it is academic.
  • Secondly, some people living during that period such as Elder and Younger Qiaos (see Elder Qiao and Younger Qiao) who are not considered "heroes" even in folklore are also listed under this category. Shouldn't the term "personages" be more all-encompassing then?

Noting that a CFD had previously been conducted and the decision reached was keep, i raised the issue again in the discussion page of the category on 21 Apr, but no one responded since. Therefore i now propose renaming of the abovesaid category and open it for a second round of votes. --Plastictv 13:02, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

  • Rename to "Three Kingdoms characters" (for consistency). Radiant_>|< 13:28, August 11, 2005 (UTC)
    • Sorry. Consistent with what? Please clarify. --Plastictv 14:15, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
    • That makes no sense. It'd be like saying "World War II characters" True, Douglas MacArthur was a character, but George Marshall wasn't. 132.205.3.20 18:34, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
      • Okay, good point. Very well, I'd prefer "people" to "personages", and kind of dislike "heroes". Radiant_>|< 09:15, August 17, 2005 (UTC)
  • Rename Plastictv's reasoning makes sense. TexasAndroid 14:35, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
  • Object. "Personages" is barely a word. I don't have a better suggestion, but I don't like the nomination suggestion. -Splash 18:09, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
    • Why isn't "personages" a word? The next closest is "characters" but that kinda makes the people sound fictional. Especially when a lot of people are misconceived about the true history of the Three Kingdoms and the historical novel Romance of the Three Kingdoms, we should try to avoid creating ambiguity. --Plastictv 21:10, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
      • "Personages" makes me think of the French "personnages," not that this matters at all. ♥purplefeltangel 19:35, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
      • Nearly every meaning the Oxford English Dictionary gives it at [1] (subscription needed) is marked as "Obsolete". -Splash 19:39, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
        • Perhaps it might suit the subject (which is China 1,800 years ago) better if we use an obsolete term? :) Well i'm just suggesting. "People of the Three Kingdoms" sounds perfectly fine, too. --Plastictv 13:36, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
  • OBJECT, previous vote was to Keep. 132.205.3.20 18:34, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
    • NOTE: previous discussion here: Category_talk:Heroes_of_the_Three_Kingdoms#CFD_Discussion
      • Perhaps opinions voiced during a previous vote could be taken into consideration but the decision of it should hardly be taken into account when deciding the current vote. Why vote again otherwise? --Plastictv 21:10, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment - Wouldn't "People of the Three Kingdoms" be better than "Personages"? JW 10:59, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
  • Rename to Category:People of the Three Kingdoms as per JW. --Kbdank71 17:24, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
  • Rename to People or Personages. -Sean Curtin 04:55, August 14, 2005 (UTC)
  • Rename to People. mikka (t) 15:34, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
  • Rename to People, though it's much more hamfisted than it is in Chinese. siafu 15:57, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
  • Rename - I don't have an especially strong opinion, but I slightly prefer Category:People of the Three Kingdoms. JW 19:25, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Run-up to a close

After three days with no new votes or comments coming in, i guess it's safe to say that the vote is running up to a close. Currently the decision lies between "Personages of the Three Kingdoms" and "People of the Three Kingdoms". Please cast your final votes if you wish to and then we'll conclude this vote. Cheers! --Plastictv 07:49, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

  • Persons of the Three Kingdoms 132.205.44.43 20:25, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.

[edit] Categorising of Three Kingdoms people

What's the period associated with this category? Is it 184-280 (Yellow Turbans to defeat of Wu), or 220-280 (abdication of Xian to defeat of Wu)

If 184-280, then there is an overlap between this category and Han Dynasty in the years 184-220. Should people active during these years be placed in both categories, or just this one? If 220-280, this would mean that the likes of Cao Cao, Guan Yu and Zhou Yu, who are generally associated with Three Kingdoms, would be categorised only in Han Dynasty. My personal preference is for 184-280, with Han Dynasty covering everyone up to 184.--Omdal 03:31, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Strictly speaking a Chinese dynasty or historical period begins with the reign of its first sovereign. If you possess a standard Chinese dictionary, a timeline of Chinese history at the back would clearly define the beginning of the Three Kingdoms period as 220, the year in which Cao Pi declared himself the emperor of the Kingdom of Wei.
However, few, if any, dynastic transistions are well-defined. This ambiguity is especially pronounced in the shift from the Eastern Han Dynasty to the Three Kingdoms period because of the practically powerless Emperor Xian and the massive scale of civil war.
My suggestion is to include these characters in the Three Kingdoms category only, as they are commonly considered by historians and laymen alike to belong to that era. Nonetheless, this is only a rule of the thumb as some people living during the 184–220 period are still more appropriately considered people of the Eastern Han Dynasty. --Plastictv 06:30, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
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