User talk:Pencefn

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Contents 1 Archives 2 Trains, trains 3 Railways 4 Spellmaster 5 G,B&K Joint Line stations 6 Kilmarnock and Troon Railway 7 Next/Previous Station Boxes 8 Colwyn Bay Station 9 More Railways 10 Next station after Strathbungo 11 Rail link 12 clockwork orange 13 UK heritage stations 14 Cunninghamhead 15 Rhyd Ddu railway station‎ 16 Yet more railways 17 Cunninghamhead 18 British Energy Nuclear Power Stations 19 Proposal 19.1 Problem 20 Re: Railway Line Station Tables 21 Cunninghamhead Castle 22 Fairlie railway station 23 Project 24 GB&KJR Stations 25 Station (Re)opening Dates 26 Ballachulish branch station closure dates. 27 Station Infobox History 28 WHL Info Boxes 29 Rhiw Goch 30 Mallaig Extension Railway 31 From: Signalhead 32 Interactive Map

[edit] Archives

Archives

July, August, September 2006 October, November, December 2006

[edit] Trains, trains

Thanks for that. --Guinnog 23:07, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Can you take a look at Image:Edinburghrail2006.png? There may be errors in it. --Guinnog 18:46, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Wow! Thanks a lot for [1]! I really appreciate your trouble. I've amended the map to take account of these lines now being defunct. --Guinnog 21:57, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I think though that Image:Oct06easterroadrailways-025.jpg is Abbeyhill Station. The bridge in the distance carries London Road. The Meadowbank station was further on I think. --Guinnog 22:02, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Railways

Thanks for the comment on the L&AR page, and great job you're doing filling in the gaps in the other closed railways. Dreamer84 14:15, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spellmaster

Yes, you're quite right. I didn't realise that didn't affect how the page displays. Another user already pointed it out too. Sorry. --Guinnog 19:46, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] G,B&K Joint Line stations

I've set up the page for the Neilston Low article with the usual opening and closing dates, and will get round to the others later today. I've been putting off the Caldwell/Uplawmoor page for a while because all the other closed station articles have their title as the station name when they closed, eg Stevenston Moorpark and Saltcoats North even though they were only named as such for eight years before closing. Technically the Caldwell station page should really be called Uplawmoor (despite only being so for four years) but of course there already is a page called that for the other station. Any suggestions? Dreamer84 13:51, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kilmarnock and Troon Railway

Thanks, the info about the line closing between 69 and 75 comes from the Ayrshire and Renfrewshire's Lost Railways, which says the line closed the same time Drybridge and Gatehead stations closed in 1969. It's possible it was still open to freight during that time, the book doesn't say one way or the other. It must have been shut at one point because not only was the track singled it was also moved into the centre of the trackbed! Definately agree we're getting through this quite well, are there any more main lines to be done for the SW? Think there's still the Darvel line from Kilmarnock, and the little branch from the K&T to the Darvel line that had Riccarton station on it.Dreamer84 22:07, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

It wouldn't be the first time that book has been inaccurate so wouldn't be surprised if the information is incorrect (there's one page (p28) in the book where they refer to Kilbirnie station as Kilwinning, twice! So is it possible that passenger services stopped in 1969, but freight services continued until around 1975, when the tracks were lifted an a single track was put in their place, and then passenger services resumed?

Also, the same book contradicts with the Butt Directory's information on Troon (Harbour). The A&RLR book says the station closed in October 1850 and the line was cut back to Barassie at the same time, but the Directory says the station closed 20 July 1846. I've gone with the directory date since it's a more precise date and the book is generally more reliable, but surely the line wasn't cut back as far as 1850?? It can't have been as the OS map of 1926 shows a single track to the harbour, unless it was relaid at some point? I'm sure it was only lifted relatively recently (in comparison to 150 years ago!) Dreamer84 23:52, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Regarding Troon harbour, I remember there used to be a line down towards the harbour and the bridge near where the gasometer used to be sited was lifted in the 70's. The Stenlake book "Old Troon", as well as "Days at the Coast" about the Caledonian Steam Packet, show railway lines still at Troon Harbour, mainly the newer redeveloped area which had lain derelict for some years. Now apparently there was a shipbreakers at Troon at one point, so the line might have been used for shipment of scrap metal. The Stenlake book could be correct in saying that the railway station closed in the 19th century, but the line itself probably continued to exist for some time afterwards. Douglasnicol 12:32, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Next/Previous Station Boxes

Noticed you mucking around with these things as well, they are a pain in the neck aren't they! It's hard to get them to flow together well at junction stations. I'm planning on changing all the boxes on the Lanarkshire and Ayrshire Railway stations at some point so they flow in the other direction (to keep in line with all the other routes which seem to end up with Glasgow terminating on the 'right' of the box). Personally I would have had it the other way around (with Glasgow on the left), but suppose better keep in line with the masses! Dreamer84 23:21, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Colwyn Bay Station

Stewart, Thanks for your interest. I was quite fooled by the situation at first. The only thing edited was the title and it was done by me on the same day! Actually I must have uploaded my picture with its original camera number and then uploaded it a second time with a descriptive name. It must have been a lapse of memory - I would be no use in the traffic department these days! I have asked for the deletion to proceed. Regards, Noel NoelWalley 17:12, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More Railways

Hi Stewart, got something to put by you. Despite finishing the remaining 'closed' stations on the Ayrshire Coast Line page the other day, I've not been happy with the way half a dozen closed stations are mixed in with the rest of the operational ones. So I've been thinking, perhaps it would be better to create (or expand) on more articles about the original companies and put the closed stations on there? For example, we already have a Kilmarnock and Troon Railway page, so we could have a similar one for the Ardrossan Railway and list all the original stations from that line, and expand on your Glasgow, Paisley, Kilmarnock and Ayr Railway page to include all the original stations on that line (perhaps incorporating the Dalry to Kilmarnock line into the list and therefore making that page obselete?). That way the Ayrshire Coast page could be restored to operational stations only, but we'd have an alternate list on another page. It also allow a much easier way to list stations such as Ayr's original station and Troon's original station.Let me know what you think. - Dreamer84 00:30, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah needs a bit of tinkering I think. I didn't really think 'Disused Railways' fitted the GPKAR because 90% of it is still open, so it's not really disused, and I noticed you referred to 'Historical Companies' in the railway company blue box thingy so thought it was a good substitute. GPKA, Ardrossan, and Kilmarnock and Troon Railways would all be Historical because their lines still exist and are operational, where as the Kilbarchan loop doesn't exist anymore so it would be Disused. But it does look odd, so maybe they could all Historical for uniform? Or perhaps another word that would fit better?

Think the transition to a seperate page has worked well so far, but problems will start to arise when it comes to doing the historical version of things like the Largs branch, which would be under the Glasgow & South Western Railway. Suppose it could have its own page just like the Kilbarchan Loop?

Finally, I've came up with yet another version of the rail boxes, see Dalry for an example. It allows both the G&SWR and the original company to get mentioned, and also fits in nicely with the format of the First Scotrail boxes. - Dreamer84 21:49, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Good question, I'm not really sure. Could add 'disused' after the name of the line I suppose, or add 'Branch closed' under the station (similar to the 'station closed' we've been using). See my Sandbox for two examples with the Kilbirnie and Montgreenan lines, I prefer the bottom one. As for that other historical template, not sure I like that too much, seems to be only used on a few pages, and not as.... friendly as the layout we've been using! - Dreamer84 20:03, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I can live with that, Line closed it is. If it's just a station that's closed (like Bogside or Gailes) then 'Station closed' is probably the best choice. :) - Dreamer84 20:37, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Next station after Strathbungo

Well it shouldn't be a problem adding another box for that (City of Glasgow Union wasn't it?), I just hadn't thought about tackling that railway just yet. :) Although now that I think about it, I've got the wrong lines for Bridge Street and Central station haven't I? Or at least Central Station, I'm not really sure what Bridge Street should come under. - Dreamer84 02:54, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rail link

I am not sure what to do here. I am thinking of creating an article on the Stirling-Alloa-Kincardine rail link. Even though it comes up with hundreds of links, it effectively going to be part of the line from Stirling to Dunfermline so although not mentioned, train services are probably going to run betwen the two towns, although a freight service as a greater route is also mentioned when searching. Simply south 16:12, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I probably should have done this (whoops!) but i have now created an article on the Stirling to Dunfermline Line as it is in essence a line and put the Rail Link under its own heading. As usual, the article will need significant expansion. Or should it serve as either a redirect or a disambiguation page? Simply south 16:42, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not totaly sure on it and would welcome some help. Simply south 16:47, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

It looks like your better at this then i am... (I have many edits and i still have a long way to go as i am still useless at things) so good job. I'm not really sure i know much about the area i started the line on anyway. I don't know how to finish this. Simply south 00:20, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] clockwork orange

hey, I did that edit we talked about. left in that most wegies call it the subway (cos I think they do) but also the citation needed note. treading a fine line! they've put in readouts to say when the next train is due - but they aren't working yet (surprise!) someone else can deal with that, I'm all subwayed out... Lindsay (raining girl 21:07, 18 November 2006 (UTC))

raining cos I come from Manchester and I live in glasgow ;-), and yeah TOTAL trekkie. but I've never actually been to a convention, before you ask. hahah L.raining girl 21:25, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] UK heritage stations

User:Mackensen deleted the heritage stations template earlier today with the comment deprecated. It looks like the new UK stations infobox and the UK heritage stations infoboxes presented about the same info, so the heritage version was dropped because the UK stations infobox is more generally applicable. This seems reasonable to me, though I would have expected it to be discussed somewhere first (maybe it was?) I would ask Mackensen for more info. Best, Gwernol 18:30, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cunninghamhead

Hey, might not necessarly be your area of expertise, but if you get a minute I'd appreciate your thoughts on the former Cunninghamhead article (and it's talk page), which in my view is a beast of a page that really needs to be broken down. :) - Dreamer84 20:21, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rhyd Ddu railway station‎

Thanks Stewart, honourd, you just beat me to it! Regards NoelWalley 22:38, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Yet more railways

I've finished most of the framework pages for the Ayr to Mauchline Branch and Annbank to Cronberry Branch, plus a station between Monkton and Annbank, and only discovered while starting the Muirkirk branch that it was actually an extension of the GPK&AR and opened just before the G&SW merger, so I've added that to the GPK&AR article. Finally hit some bigish problems with the infoboxes, everything is fine until you get to Mauchline railway station, which has terminuses going the same way when they shouldn't be! Similar problem at Cronberry railway station. There might be a way round it but too late for me to start looking at that just now :). Planning on doing Darvel branch and filling in the gaps on the Maidens and Dunure next. --Dreamer84 02:20, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

That's true though then you end up with a 'Ayr to Mauchline' line that doesn't actually go to Ayr! So its either have a wrong facing junction at Ayr, or Mauchline. Though I know there always was (and still is) a north-junction at the Ayr side, but I'm pretty sure most trains used the south junction. --Dreamer84 10:58, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cunninghamhead

Thanks for your helpful comments. Dreamer was taking a rather negative and tactless approach. This is a local history article in my mind and all these links are historical links. I don't know how to sort out that logical impasse.

How does one credit the recording of local oral history - I got the idea of 'Personal communication' from published sources - especially the Ordance Survey, the RCAHMS, Proc Soc Antiq Soc Scot, etc.

I have been trying to find any remains of Cunninghamhead Castle - some sources suggest that something remained after the Snodgrass family demolished it. No sign so far though.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rosser1954 (talk • contribs) .

[edit] British Energy Nuclear Power Stations

Hi there. To be honest, I was processing hundreds of questionable articles in quick succession. However, I deleted Hartlepool nuclear power station for one reason: it was a copy-paste move, which is the wrong way to rename articles. Further, at Talk:Hartlepool Power Station, this reason was indicated to you, yet you simply stated that you dispute this naming convention. There was no debate, as far as I can tell, about renaming any of these articles.

I am not involved in any of the power station articles, let alone those for the UK. If you don't like the naming conventions, discuss them in the relevant WikiProject(s), and once a stable consensus is reached, then move the articles using the correct method (the move button) if need be, so you don't blow away the edit history which is required for proper attribution under the GFDL. Mindmatrix 19:22, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

There's no need to stay away from the topic; everyone's welcome to participate. Just make sure to discuss major changes first. (BTW: my previous message was meant to be informational, but may have had a tone of scolding which wasn't intentional - sorry 'bout that.) Mindmatrix 19:45, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal

Are you interested or know much about the transport systems around Glasgow and Edinburgh? Simply south 20:54, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm probably in way over my head and don't know much about the area. The reason for the query is, nevertheless i have just proposed a WikiProject to cover Transport around Glasgow and Edinburgh but more as an idea as i don't think i could cope as being main editor. Simply south 21:07, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Just to note, even though i am suggesting it i think i just want to be a contributor and partially help out with the main page. I think i am going to set up a temp page (well sort it out properly). Simply south 21:29, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

A couple of my problems are that i am not from Scotland and i have University and other work in the way. But i can still contribute where i can For example, i have created most of the station articles on the Glasgow Subway.

Btw, temp page is User:Simply south/WikiProject Transport around Glasgow and Edinburgh Simply south 21:43, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Could i ask for your help in setting the page up? I am taking a chance with this page as i have never done a wikiproject before. Simply south 23:58, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I think i'll trake up Babilltucker's idea. Do you think this should have a shorter title like Scottish Rapid Transit or another name or leave as is? Simply south 23:30, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

What do you think the project should be called? Simply south 12:49, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Problem

Not sure what to do. If i call it "Scottish Rapid Transit" I may have to exclude the Crossrails (although its interesting that WP Underground include London Overground so possibly not...) and the Scottish commuter network. If "WP:Scotland Rail Transport", the scope is less than the current title but i may have to exclude trams ,or maybe not, but i would have to exclude Fastlink. Am i right in even attempting a wikiproject thats almost already disorganised in a way. Simply south 17:42, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

How about Scotland Transit? Simply south 20:21, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Railway Line Station Tables

Thanks for dropping me a note and fixing the issue. I used a (human operated) script for automated revision of multiple hundred articles and endeavoured to check every single one. Most of them were correctly revised and I tried to revert all which weren't. Among the latter ones, I also fixed railway line station tables. Looks like I missed these two. Saxbryn 16:57, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cunninghamhead Castle

A number of references exist which talk about Cunninghamhead castle the 'strong old dunjeon' as one historian calls it. The site of the castle may still exist as a few scattered stone sand foundations - much like the other castle in Kilmaurs and Busby Castle in Knockentiber.

I am more than unhappy about the 'chopping up' of this article. railway lines may logically have an article for each station, but local history becomes a nonsense if you chop it up. I was trying to add fresh info the other day and I couldn't even find the sections I wanted to add info to. Why do you feel that it is necessary to edit to the point that one article becomes lots of vaguely connected stubs (in some cases)? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rosser1954 (talk • contribs) 20:55, 3 December 2006 (UTC).

Rosser

[edit] Fairlie railway station

Hey, firstly apologies for you getting undeservedly dragged into the Cunninghamhead carry on, entirely my fault for getting you involved in the first place! On a more calmer topic, are you familar with any history of Fairlie railway station? I'm trying to figure out what it was like when there were still two tracks going to Largs, I've assumed there were two platforms but can't say for sure, you got any idea? --Dreamer84 00:35, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Project

I have now decided to rename the project to Transport in Scotland. This is going to be very broad but i have stated it will focus primarily on public transport. Do you think this is going to be any good? I have also made a start on the sub-page. I am going to pass this comment onto othere members. Simply south 12:35, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Well as you can see i have tried it out as a new project and am seeing where it is going. If you want the permanent link, it is Wikipedia:WikiProject Transport in Scotland. Simply south 12:21, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Just to say, thanks for removing the tulips earlier! I missed that. Simply south 19:42, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GB&KJR Stations

Were the Gorbals and St Enoch Stations on the GBK Joint line? I thought they were part of the City Union line? I could be wrong as I'm not 100% sure. --Dreamer84 18:23, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I will probably concede the St Enoch was not part of the GB&KJR - although GB&KJR trains terminated there (so did NBR trains from the north!!). Gorbals is another issue, as I believe it directly replaced South Side on 1 August 1877 when the connection was made with the City Union.

There is probably a similar arguement that can be made regarding Glasgow, Barrhead and Neilston Direct Railway going into Central Station. It being the Caledonian Railway link into Eglinton Street; Bridge Street (latterly Central Station).

This all came from my dis-satifaction of the way adjacent stations to Strathbungo were handled. Having now spent some time on the City Union Line I am now even more confused.

Thoughts, article revisions, etc gratefully received Stewart 18:55, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

After checking my usual sources, you're completely right, Gorbals was opened as part of the GBK. My suggestion: we change the table on the GBK so that only Gorbals and South Side are at the top, and also change the station tables on Strathbungo to reflect the same. St Enoch could then get a link to Gorbals via a City Union station table when the page is eventually created. --Dreamer84 21:02, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I will leave to to sort out the GBK article. Stewart 21:36, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I've done a test infobox for the City Union Line in my sandbox that includes the Gorbals and South Side stations. Its missing the junction names from your version though (and goes from north to south). The Union line is a particularly awkward line to translate into a small box! :) And someones altered the text size for the Template, doesn't look as nice now IMO. --Dreamer84 21:46, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Had a play in your sandbox. As you say, the City Union is particularly difficult.

• Firstly because it did not start/finish at station, rather Sighthill and Shields Junctions. Springburn station was on the Sighthill Branch of the E&G on its connection to the Glasgow and Garnkirk. One could argue that Sighthill Junction is where the E&G, City Union and Garnkirk railways met.
• Secondly, St Enoch was on a triangular junction, being a terminus station, which allowed access to the City Union in both directions. I beleive that G&SW trains headed south (maybe even the odd WCML train in BR days) and NBR trains headed north to the North Clyde Line and the E+G.

Still not happen with what I have done in the sandbox, but I think it better reflects the situation. Stewart 22:11, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I like your changes, its now better than it was. Up to you whether to use that one or the existing one. Springburn is an odd one, RJV Butt says it was opened by the City Union line, so I was just going by that.

The headaches come when trying to fit Gorbals and South Side in since they (apparently) only existed together on this line for a month, so really they shouldn't go in line but rather side by side! I've put up the Gorbals page but the connecting stations will probably need changed again after I've had some aspirin. :) --Dreamer84 11:44, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Station (Re)opening Dates

Hello again. I don't know whether there's a policy on this, but I noticed an inconsistency with the opening dates given in the info boxes: Loch Awe railway station gives the original opening date, while Falls of Cruachan railway station gives the date of re-opening. 84.64.136.238 22:16, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ballachulish branch station closure dates.

You give a date of 23 March 1966. According to my notes, the stations closed on 29 March. I've just looked in two books, both of which say 26 March! 84.64.136.238 22:51, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Station Infobox History

Noticed you adding more dates handling to the infoboxes, how do you think the history data should work in cases of a lot of dates? Should the history data be moved from the main body of the article to the infobox, or should it appear in both the main body and the infobox? Problem with moving them is some articles would be left with virtually nothing in the main article, and the problem with just copying them over is you end up with lots of duplication. Having the timeline in the infobox is a great idea though. What do you think? The dates really all need to have their sources cited too, I recommend the footnote style ala Giffen railway station (the only article I've actually properly referenced so far!) --Dreamer84 15:46, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WHL Info Boxes

Thanks for adding all those info boxes to the West Highland Line stations, and for creating the Barcaldine station article. 81.79.95.108 22:42, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rhiw Goch

Sorry, I was in the middle of writing an article on Rhiw Goch and got distracted. Its up now. Gwernol 22:51, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mallaig Extension Railway

Does the Mallaig Extension Railway really qualify as a "Historical Railway", given that:

• it's still open from end to end, and
• it's actually of quite recent origin, relatively speaking?

81.79.95.108 22:55, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] From: Signalhead

Thanks very much for sorting out my talk page. As I'm a newly-registered user, I don't yet have the 'move' tab.

Now, how do I go about creating a cool User page like yours? Signalhead 20:29, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Interactive Map

Even though you have not finished it yet, I like it. It would resolve some of those awkward list which are difficult to format. City Union Line comes to mind with St Enoch, etc. It might also be prudent to include links to the articles for other lines - for example the Kilbarchan Loop Line. Stewart 15:41, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree it gives a much better overview than the tables we've been using up until now. It looks a little crowed in places, particularly around the Auchinleck area, but I think its easy to identify what station is which. Only problem is the amount of time it takes to put one of these together! Thankfully not all of the lines are as spread out as the GPKAR so should take less time. I was thinking about including other lines on the map as grey lines, though not sure the best way to link to them on the map. How do you think is the best way to implement the map on the page? This particular map is perhaps slightly too big to replace the station table list on the top right of the GPKAR, but lines like the Kilbarchan Loop could easily have the map replace the table list altogether. --Dreamer84 00:34, 13 December 2006 (UTC)