Talk:Pelé

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To-do list for Pelé: edit · history · watch · refresh
  • More "early life" biographical information
  • More biographical information for each section of his playing career, in this order of priority:
  1. Santos
  2. Brazil
    • National team section is now in decent shape and ready for further expansion. --ChaChaFut 04:03, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
  3. Cosmos
  • Finish work on statistics
  • Something about his commercial career? His advertising of Viagra??
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Contents

[edit] Goalscoring Stats

[edit] The Table

Note: in reworking the table from the version presented in the article, I've removed the Totals: these were for "major" domestic club compeitions, plus the Copa Libertadores. They can still be seen in the table in the article if they are needed.

Second note: According the the official Santos website [1], Pele scored 1091 in 1116. I guess this is the number we are aiming for in the bottom right hand corner of the table. --Jim (Talk) 12:49, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

OK. According to the big list, Pele got 1088 in 1115 for Santos. This means it is missing one game in which Pele scored 3 goals. Assuming, for the moment, that Santos have counted one to many matches, then this game could be:
  • 19 June 1957, Combined Santos/Vasco - Belenenses (Portugal)
  • 24 Jan 1960, Sao Paulo - Bahia
  • Any one of four games August-October 1959, for military teams. However, I am assuming that Santos would either count all of these games, or none of them; so it has to be one of the first two games.
I don't have time right now to check what competitions the first two matches are from, and it might be the case that the big list (or Santos) have made other mistakes, but it's worth having this here just in case something doesn't add up on the table further along the line. --Jim (Talk) 13:16, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Another thought on this matter: it could be that the missing game for Santos on the big list is Pele's testimonial, where he played one half for Cosmos and one half for Santos. The final score was 2-1 to Cosmos. Pele scored one goal. So it doesn't sort out the missing hat-trick.
A few points:
  1. I think that we should remove all the stars (*)
  2. I think we should go with the big list as it is more verifiable than either the Santos number or 1,281.
  3. I would like to see this version of the table completed and added to the article a.s.a.p.
aLii 21:26, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Club Season Domestic League Competitions Domestic League
Sub-total		 Domestic Cup International Club Competitions Other Club
Matches[1]		 GRAND
TOTAL
SPS[2] RSPS[2] T. de Prata Camp. Brasil.[2] T. Brasil Copa Libertadores Intercontinental Cup
Apps Goals Apps Goals Apps Goals Apps Goals Apps Goals Apps Goals Apps Goals Apps Goals Apps Goals Apps Goals
Santos 1956 0* 0* 0* 0* 2* 2*[3] 2* 2*
1957 14+15* 19+17*[4] 9 5 38* 41* 29* 16* 67* 57*
1958 38 58 8 8 46 66 14* 14* 60* 80*
1959 32 45 7 6 39 51 4* 2* 40* 47* 83* 100*
1960 30 33 3 0 33 33 0 0 0 0 0 0 34* 26* 67* 59*
1961 26 47 7 8 33 55 5* 7 0 0 0 0 36* 48* 74* 110*
1962 26 37 0 0 26 37 5* 2* 4* 4* 2 6 13* 14* 50* 63*
1963 19 22 8 14 27 36 4* 8 4* 5* 1 2 16 16* 52* 67*
1964 21 34 4 3 25 37 6* 7 0* 0* 0 0 16* 13* 47* 57*
1965 30 49 7 5 37 54 4* 2* 7* 8 0 0 18* 33* 66* 97*
1966 14 13 0* 0* 14* 13* 5* 2* 0 0 0 0 19* 16* 38* 31*
1967 18 17 14* 9* 32* 26* 0 0 0 0 0 0 ??? ??? 65* 56*
1968 21 17 17* 11* 38* 28* 0 0 0 0 0 0 ??? ??? 73* 55*
1969 25 26 12* 12* 37* 38* 0 0 0 0 ??? ??? 61* 57*
1970 15 7 13* 4* 28* 11* 0 0 0 0 ??? ??? 54* 47*
1971 19 8 21 1 40 9 0 0 0 0 ??? ??? 72* 29*
1972 20 9 16 5 36 14 0 0 0 0 ??? ??? 74* 50*
1973 19 11 30 19 49 30 0 0 0 0 ??? ??? 66* 52*
1974 10 1 17 9 27 10 0 0 0 0 ??? ??? 49* 19*
All 412 470 53 49 56* 36* 84 34 605* 589* 33 30 15 17[5] 3 8 ??? ??? 1120 1088
Club Season NASL Other[6] Total
Apps Goals Apps Goals Apps Goals
NY Cosmos 1975 9 5 14* 10* 23* 15*
1976 24 15 18* 11* 42* 26*
1977 31 17 11* 6* 42* 23*
All 64 37 43* 27* 107* 64*
  • A dark grey cell means that the relevant competition did not run in the relevant year
  • A "*" indicates this number was inferred from a Santos fixture list from rsssf.com and this list of games Pelé played.

[edit] Comments and calculations

  • Santos only played in the Copa Libertadores in 1962, 1963, 1964 and 1965 of the years Pele was there [2]. (The same page believes that Pele's 17 goals in the competition came in 14 games)
  • 1964 Santos only scored 3 goals in the CL, and in 1965 Pele top scored with 8 in the competition [3] [4].
  • Some Taca Brazil stats rsssf.com. Pele got 7 goals in 1961, 8 in 1963, and 7 in 1964. Also Santos didn't take part in 1960 [5], 1967 [6] or 1968 [7].
  • There is a chance that your [Campeonato Paulista|SPS] stats may be incorrect, see [8]. Of course the rsssf page could well be wrong.
    • That link disagrees with the stat above for 1957. It gives Pele 17 goals rather than the 36 we give him. It confirms the stats above for 58-65 inclusive, as well as 69 and 73. It doesn't seem to implicitly disagree (i.e., by giving the top scorer record to a player who scored fewer goals than the table above says Pele scored) at all. I will look into this: although it may mean going right back to the list of goals on my User Page.Jim (Talk) 18:43, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
      • Infact almost every website that I've visited lists him as 1957 top scorer with 17 goals, e.g. [9]. However, the same pages generally seem to think he scored 97 goals for Brazil rather than the obviously correct 77. Weird. Also note that the big list of games and goals lists 751 "National" games for Santos and 717 goals. The above table only lists 633 games (CL is international). What I mean to point out by this is that you can't count those games and assume that they correspond to well established tournament appearances. It seems that Santos played all kinds of random little friendly tournaments. aLii 22:08, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
      • Both numbers are correct in a way. In 1957 the SP championship was split into two halves [10], Série Azul and Série Branca. In the first half Pele scored 19 in 14, and then in Série Azul he got 17 in 15. aLii 12:21, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
  • rsssf.com doesn't have any details for the Torneio Rio-São Paulo in 1956. I guess it wasn't run for some reason. Santos didn't take part in 1962 [11]
    • This guy [12] claims that "Não houve torneio de 1934 a 1939, de 1941 a 1949, em 1956, de 1967 a 1992 e de 1994 a 1996". I can't read Portuguese, but from cross-referencing the dates it seems that he is saying that the RSPS wasn't run in 1956. Jim (Talk) 18:43, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
aLii 18:25, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
  • OK, I've checked out 1956, and according to the "master list" at User:James Kemp/Pelé/0001 to 0142 56 to 58, Pele played two games. Also, based on our other research, Santos were only playing in the SPS. Neither of these games occured in the SPS according to rsssf.com. Furthermore, soccer-europe claims Pele did not play for or score for Santos in 1956. So I've set his appearances and goals for that year to a tentative zero. Looks like we'll have to update the dates he was at Santos on the main page, too. Jim (Talk) 18:49, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Oh, and as a little aside it likes like the oft-cited claim that Pele scored 4 goals on his debut might be bollocks as well!! Jim (Talk) 18:49, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
  • RSPS for 1966: According to rsssf.com, "(Due to the World Cup, the extra matches were not realized and all the four teams were considered champions.)" [13]. Maybe this is why Pele's goals scored in the competition - if, indeed, he did score - are not counted at Soccer Europe? Or maybe he was not played because of the impending World Cup? Either way, it mine mean resorting to the master list, and I ain't put it up on my User Page for that year, yet. Jim (Talk) 18:56, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    • Santos did indeed take part, but Pele himself would seem to have played no part. Infact he played no games between 17 Feb and 29 Mar — all of Santos' games in the tournament were in this period. One would assume he was injured. aLii 02:18, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
  • 1962 Taca Brasil. The first thing to note is that it looks like the TB for 1962 actually ran through into 1963; this seems to be the case for at least one other year. For the sake of simplicity (and because they are probably right) I think we should adopt the RSSSF convention; i.e., the 62-63 TB is listed as 1962. According to rsssf [14] Santos did not play until the semis, possibly because they were the cup holders - this is not stated explicitly, but this is how the TdP works in other years. According to rsssf, Santos played five games in that years TB; according to the master list, Pele played in all of them, and scored 2 goals. The only oddity is that rsssf list the two games against Recife as being played in December 62, whereas the list lists them as being played in January 63; either way, the results are the same and Pele played but did not score. Jim (Talk) 08:12, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Similar work for the 59 TB gives 2 goals in 4 games. Again, a little tentative. Jim (Talk) 08:39, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
  • TB 65, same process. Santos play four games according to rsssf; again I assume they qualify automatically for the semis as they won the cup the year before. Pele scores 2 in 4. All games take place in the calendar year 1965. Jim (Talk) 10:34, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
  • TB 66, same process. Pele gest 2 in 5. We have a problem now as our breakdown is greater than the total given by soccer-europe. Maybe someone could go through the goal totals given by rsssf.com (where they have Pele as top scorer in a particular year) to see if they correlate with the master list and the rsssf.com results list? Jim (Talk) 10:34, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
    • Done for 61. Goals correct. 5 apps. Jim (Talk) 10:38, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
    • Double checked 62 Jim (Talk) 10:46, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
    • Done for 63. 8 in 4. Jim (Talk) 10:46, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
    • Done for 64. 7 in 6. I think Soccer Europe made a mistake, and that our stats are correct (since most of them have been checked directly with the results, and the balance are from rsssf which is pretty much the authority. I've amended the TB totals to read 30 in 33. Jim (Talk) 10:53, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] References

  1. ^ Reference goes here, explaining what these matches were
  2. ^ a b c All statistics relating to Pele's goalscoring record between 1957 and 1974 in the SPS, RSPS, and Campeonato Brasileiro are taken from http://soccer-europe.com/Biographies/Pele.html. Soccer Europe compiled this list from http://www.rsssf.com (The Rec.Sport.Soccer Statistics Foundation). For a full list of Pele's goals see http://rivelino.caltech.edu/~pelesl/pele/english/pele_statistics.html.
  3. ^ Pele's first two matches for Santos are assumed here to be friendlies. No record of them exists in any of the tournaments listed at rsssf.com.
  4. ^ In 1957 the Sao Paulo championship was split into two halves, Série Azul and Série Branca. In the first half Pelé scored 19 goals in 14 games, and then in Série Azul he scored 17 goals in 15 games See http://paginas.terra.com.br/esporte/rsssfbrasil/tables/sp1957.htm
  5. ^ Totalised statistics relating to Pele's record between 1957 and 1974 in the Taça de Prata, Taça Brasil and Copa Libertadores are taken from http://soccer-europe.com/Biographies/Pele.html. Soccer Europe compiled this list from http://www.rsssf.com (The Rec.Sport.Soccer Statistics Foundation), but do not give a season-by-season breakdown. For a full list of Pele's goals see http://rivelino.caltech.edu/~pelesl/pele/english/pele_statistics.html.
  6. ^ Reference indicated what "Other" means in this context

[edit] Now that's settled...

Here's a provisional to-do list for the goalscoring stats:

  • Find out, from rsssf, precisely what other tournaments Pele played in. The list can go here:
    • Taça dos Campeões Estaduais [15] - 56, 0(0); 57 1(0)
    • 1968 Campeonato Nacional [16]
    • Tournament 3
    • etc...
  • Work out, preferably with the help of the wider WP community, precisely which tournaments should be counted towards league goals. Almost certainly none of the little ones listed above should be. I like the current definitions; I am just thinking that maybe the Taca Brasil should be included since, although it isn't a league tournament, it was a qualifying competition for the Copa Lib and was therefore more prestigious that your average cup.
  • Add Intercontinental Cup Data
  • Rework the table - it's taking up the width of the screen at the moment, and if we need another column for "other competititve competitions" then it will just be too big. How about one table for all "league" goals (as per the infobox definition) and another table for everything else? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by James Kemp (talk • contribs) 09:50, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

While you were writing, I was writing this: There are many problems when trying to give the "facts" about Pele's goal scoring record.

  1. How many goals did he actually score? FIFA says 1281 in 1363 games. However the big list says 1280 in 1363 games, or 1282 in 1366 games, dependant on whether you count the three friendly appearances he made after his retirement?
Hmmm. Good point. Santos are going with 1281 goals as well. Is there any way of working out what FIFA's source is? Could we write to them and ask? Santos seem to cite the same statistic [17]. I reckon we assume FIFA and Santos have got it right, and that there's some kind of error on the big list. This doesn't matter too much for the moment, as it will only put our total one goal out, and we can also carry FIFA's total. But it should be sorted out at some point. Jim (Talk) 12:35, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
  1. When did he score his 1000th goal? Most media sources have recently put it after 909 games, in a match against Vasco. The big list says that was his 1001th goal, with the 1000th coming in his 907th game.
Interesting: assuming that these media sources are using the FIFA statistics, one would assume that - if there was a discrepancy with the big list, as there is here - they would say that the 1000th goal was earlier than the big list, not later. The big list is taken from a book called Pelé: O Supercampeão by Orlando Duarte. According to WorldCat this is only available in some libraries in the US: depending on where you are based, do you think you could put in an interlibrary loan? I will try here (Edinburgh), too. Interestingly enough, there was a book published called "Pele: the autobiography" by the same guy (Duarte). Maybe that contains a list of statistics. The British Library have it, if you are near London; I will try and get the National Library of Scotland to sort out a copy.Jim (Talk) 12:35, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
1000 gol marcado em 19 de novembro de 1969, às 23h11, em sua 909º partida, Vasco 1 - Santos 2, com 65.157 pagantes. He scored his 1000th goal 19 Novembre, 1969, by 23:11 o'clock, in his 909th match. It was Vasco 1 x 2 Santos, with 65.157 people attending and broadcasted to the entire nation (Brazil). The goal was by Penalty. There's the possibility that 1 goal was skipped and that this was actually the 1001th goal. I'll have to research this fact though. Regards Loudenvier 14:34, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Just to clarify the situation, the big list claims that this goal was Pele's 1001st. It agrees with the details of the match though, and that this was Pele's 909th match. Loudenvier: could you post the source from which you are taking the above Portuguese? And Ali, what other media sources claim this goal as the 1000th? When do these sources say Pele's first game was? It's just that if they are not counting the first game the big list gives, in which Pele scored 1 goal, then everything is just about sorted without too much hassles: although this is somewhat of a cut and shut method. Jim (Talk) 15:11, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
I have an overhelming amount of sources because I'm brazilian. The difficult lies in filtering the sources. I have even the escalation of Vasco and Santos. The Goal was scored agains the goalkeeper from Argentina Andrada, which is something ironic due to the rivalry between Brazil and Argentina. The source for my statement before was the portuguese wikipedia (pt.wikipedia.org). I'll come with somethin interesting soon. Loudenvier 17:11, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
  1. What competitions were national league competitions? I think there is a good arguement for saying the four currently mentioned, but equally for saying just the Sao Paolo league.
Personally I think this should be decided by the WP community. This may have already been done implicitly: if you check out the infobox for Rivelino, who played in Brazil between 65 and 78, he is given 500 odd appearances and 194 goals; could we work out the basis on which this is calculated? What other Brazilian players of that era have infoboxes with their appearance and goal record in it? Maybe we should defer to rsssf.com on this.
I got in touch with the guy that did the stats for the Rivelino article and he says the following:
Hi Jim! I got the Rivelino information from the Corinthians Almanac(an actual book). His club did not play international games at the time, so my mission was easier. I got the information for Fluminense from hthe club website; and the international games from the RSSF Brasil. There was not a proper Brazilian league until 71, so it is generally accepted that the "Rio Sao Paulo" and "Copa Brasil" are considered as domestic leagues. Besides that, the regional championship (Paulista for Corinthians, Carioca for Fluminense) are played officialy in the beginning of the year). I do not see any problem in using the same criteria for Pelé.
I will check out the Fluminese website and see if I can get some more information. Jim (Talk) 08:05, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


  1. Exactly what were all these hundreds of other games Pele played? How can they be classified? Are there many sources for this? Jim (Talk) 17:05, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Some will be in those small tournaments you found. Others are for Army teams. But I think the vast majority will be in exhibition games for Santos and Cosmos. The ones for Santos are listed somewhere on rsssf.com. I think they also list the ones for Cosmos: at the bottom of each season's info page. Jim (Talk) 17:05, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
The Portugeuse Wikipedia article has loads of good statistics on this. Do you reckon you could translate, Loudevinir?:
I'm a litle short of time right now... I'll translate it as soon as possible... Loudenvier 21:05, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Seleção do 6º Grupo de Artilharia de Costa Motorizado (6º GACosM)(1959), 11 gols
  • Seleção Paulista (1959-60 e 1968/69), 11 gols
  • Seleção das Forças Armadas (1959), 4 gols
  • Seleção dos Sind. dos Atletas-SP (1961/62), 3 gols
  • Seleção do Sudeste (1983), 1 gol
  • Seleção dos Amigos do Garrincha, 1 gol
  • Seleção Norte Americana de Astros (1975)
  • Seleção dos ex-atletas do New York Cosmos (1984)
  • Seleção Brasileira de Seniores (1987)
In total they're listing the following competitions he played in:
Campeonato Paulista
1957 - Santos (17 gols)
1958 - Santos (58 gols)
1959 - Santos (45 gols)
1960 - Santos (33 gols)
1961 - Santos (47 gols)
1962 - Santos (37 gols)
1963 - Santos (22 gols)
1964 - Santos (34 gols)
1965 - Santos (49 gols)
1969 - Santos (26 gols)
1973 - Santos (11 gols)
Copa América
1959 - Brasil (8 gols)
Campeonato Brasileiro das Forças Armadas
1959 - Seleção da 6ª Grupo de Artilharia de Costa Motorizado (6º GACosM)(11 gols)
Campeonato Sul Americano das Forças Armadas
1959 - Seleção Brasileira das Forças Armadas (11 gols)
Taça Brasil
1961 - Santos (9 gols)
1963 - Santos (12 gols)
Torneio Rio-São Paulo
1961 - Santos (7 gols)
1963 - Santos (15 gols)
1964 - Santos (3 gols)
1965 - Santos (7 gols)
Mundial Interclubes
1962 - Santos (3 gols)
Taça Libertadores da América
1963 - Santos (11 gols)

Jim (Talk) 17:56, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I think also that it would be useful, and put to rest most of this squabble if Pele's complete seasonal tally of games/goals would be added to the end of the table. From the big list I total it as (I would like this double checking):

Definitely. But I think we need to be careful how we present the statistics box, so that we include sub-totals for "league" games, other competitive games, non competitive games, etc. Jim (Talk) 17:05, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
  • 1956: 2 (2) - double-checked. 2(2) for Santos Jim (Talk)
  • 1957: 73 (65) - double-checked. 4(6) for "Combined Santos/Vasco"; 2(2) For Brazil; 67 (57) for Santos Jim (Talk)
  • 1958: 67 (90) - double-checked. 7(10) for Brazil; 60(80) for Santos Jim (Talk)
  • 1959: 103 (126) - double-checked. 3(3) for "Army National Team"; 1(0) for "Army A"; 6(11) for "Sixth Coast Guard"; 2(1) for Sao Paulo; 8(11) for Brazil; 83(100) for Santos Jim (Talk)
  • 1960: 82 (73) - double-checked. 6(6) for Sao Paulo; 9(8) for Brazil; 67(59) For Santos. Jim (Talk)
  • 1961: 75 (111) - double-checked. 1(1) For "Syndicate of Athletes of Sao Paulo"; 74(110) for Santos Jim (Talk)
  • 1962: 59 (73) - double-checked. 8(8) for Brazil; 1(2) for "Syndicate of Athletes of Sao Paulo"; 50(63) for Santos Jim (Talk)
  • 1963: 59 (74) - double-checked. 7(7) for Brazil; 52(67) for Santos Jim (Talk)
  • 1964: 50 (58) - double-checked. 3(1) for Brazil; 47(57) for Santos Jim (Talk)
  • 1965: 74 (106) - double-checked. 8(9) for Brazil; 66(97) for Santos Jim (Talk)
  • 1966: 50 (43) - double-checked. 12(12) for Brazil; 38(31) for Santos Jim (Talk)
  • 1967: 65 (56) - double-checked. 65(56) for Santos. Jim (Talk)
  • 1968: 80 (60) 82(60) - could someone triple check? Jim (Talk)
    • Yeah, looks like my mistake. 842-761=81 (+1) = 82 aLii 02:20, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
      • 1(1) For Sao Paulo; 8(4) for Brazil; 73(55) for Santos.
  • 1969: 78 (68) - double-checked. 14(10) for Brazil; 3(1) for Sao Paolo; 61(57) for Santos Jim (Talk)
  • 1970: 75 (59) - double-checked. 21(12) for Brazil; 54(47) for Santos. Jim (Talk)
  • 1971: 74 (30) - double-checked. 2(1) for Brazil; 72(29) for Santos. Jim (Talk)
  • 1972: 74 (50) - double-checked. 74(50) for Santos. Jim (Talk)
  • 1973: 67 (53) - double-checked. 1(1) for "Brazilian Selection"; 66(52) for Santos. Jim (Talk)
  • 1974: 45 (19) - double-checked. 45(19) for Santos Jim (Talk)


Cosmos years:

  • 1975: 23 (15) - double-checked. 23(15 for Cosmos Jim (Talk)
  • 1976: 44 (26) - double-checked. 2(0) for "American All-Stars", 1(0) For Brasil (although this may not be a full international, as it was against Flamengo), 41(26) for Cosmos Jim (Talk)
  • 1977: 42 (23) - double-checked. 42(23) for Cosmos Jim (Talk)

aLii 11:05, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

All double-checked. However, I think it would be better if we separated out Pele's appearances for Santos/Cosmos from other appearances (e.g., for military teams, Brazil, etc.). I've done a few years and added info to table above. --Jim (Talk) 12:29, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Table style change

Inspired by the stats table at Hank Aaron (He's a baseball player, and in baseball they're kind of into their stats) I've changed the table above to allow us to enter every single goal Pele scored in Santos colours, and also to give a subtotal to make it clear which goals we're counting as "Domestic League". What do you think? We would still need somewhere to put apps/goals for army teams, and other teams Pele played for, but I think this is a good way of dealing with the Santos statistics. Jim (Talk) 10:11, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pelé Eterno redirect

I'm curious, why does Pelé Eterno redirect to Pelé? - ChaChaFut 03:29, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Pelé Eterno is a Portuguese documentary about Pelé. I'm not sure why the redirect was initially setup: perhaps because someone thought the documentary didn't deserve its own page, and because there is a little information about it on the Pelé article. Even the Portuguese Wikipedia doesn't have that much information on the documentary [18], but perhaps someone could create a stub on the English Wikipedia? I'm not sure if it was released in English-speaking countries, but the imdb do give it an English title [19] so I guess we can assume it was. --Jim (Talk) 10:27, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Confusing sentences

The two sentences below are very confusing to me:
The table below attempts to record every goal Pelé scored in competitive club competition for Santos and New York Cosmos. At this moment it is known of various games that are not included (for instance Pelé's 7 goals in the Intercontinental Cup), but all major annual competitions are included.
Can someone rewrite this so that it makes sense (and has correct grammar)? What exactly is included in the table and what isn't? You can't say that it is "every goal" but "various games are not included". That sounds contradictory. If it is just a list of "all major annual competitions", it should simply say that. Kaldari 01:09, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

This has been fixed. Kaldari 06:18, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Goalscoring table again...

Glad to see Pele got the WPF AID. It's just a bummer that my dissertation is due on Friday, or I would do more serious work. Maybe I'll have my own AID for Pele next week.

One thing I would like to see by the end of the week is the expanded goals table being included in the article. With this in mind, what do you all reckon about merging the last two columns, so that all of Pele's goals in friendlies and small competitions are in one column? This could be headed "Other Club Goals" and a note be put in to explain precisely what this meant. I really don't want to go through the entire goal list and pin each goal to a competition or friendly, but at least this way of working would give someone else the option to do this in the future. --Jim (Talk) 23:09, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 1,281 or 1,282? goals

Twice this article states that Pele is credited with scoring 1,281 goals, and twice the article states that he scored a total of 1,282 goals. The article should either cite one statistic consistantly or explain the descrepancy within the article text. That is, if we believe the 1,282 stat is correct and the 1,281 stat is incorrect, we need to explain why in the article. Otherwise it is an unexplained contradiction. Kaldari 06:25, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

The lower number is the more often quoted. The higher number comes from the big excel file, which claims that it counts a few friendly games from the end of his career that aren't usually counted. However if one removes these (3, I think) games, then Pele's goals go down to 1,280 (he scored 2 in one game), so the numbers still aren't consistent. I guess 1,281 is the number we should probably go with. aLii 08:43, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
If we are going to resolve this I think we'll need get hold of some more official statistics. Does the IFFHS supply this for free? Otherwise, there is the Duarte book which lists every one of Pele's goals. It would be good to get this resolved. --Jim (Talk) 16:45, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, it would especially be good to get this resolved before Wikipedia Version 0.5 is finalized. The review period for 0.5 is scheduled to end on September 30th. After that, some version of this article will be written into stone (or more likely a DVD). It would be unfortunate to have this ambiguity remaining in the version selected for 0.5. Alternatively, why is not possible to just explain the discrepancy within the text of the article? Right now the reader is still left with the question of "Why does Wikipedia claim that Pele scored 1,282 goals if most sources say he scored 1,281?". Putting "See also the talk page" in the article (as it does now) is absolutely not acceptable (since Wikipedia self-references are not allowed). We should either remove the discrepency or add a paragraph to the article text (not in the notes) which says which sources claim 1,281 and which sources claim 1,282 and let the reader decide for themselves. Kaldari 20:55, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I have resolved the goalscoring discrepancy for now. See this edit for my changes. Kaldari 01:16, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Problem with this paragraph in Pelé article

I have a problem with the following statement made in the Pelé article:

"Although the Brazilian domestic league system provided every single starter from the 1958, 1962, and 1970 Brazil World Cup Champions,[32] perhaps leading one to the assumption that it was the world's strongest league during the years of Pelé's career, one also has to take into account the state nature of the league. At the time Santos mainly played against other teams from the São Paulo region, whereas the best players were spread around teams all across Brazil"

If you're going to make that claim you should at least elaborate on that. For example, mention the fact that in 1958 and 1962 all players on the brazilian national team played in either São Paulo or Rio De Janeiro and in 1970 only 5 players played outside of those two states. Besides the São Paulo state championship there was also the Torneio Rio-São Paulo which Santos and Pelé participated in every year. So, in essence, Pelé did,in fact,play against the best players in Brasil year in and year out. You don't make it seem that way in the aforementioned paragraph.

--R9magia 00:09, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Reword it then, but be warned; the previous incarnation of this paragraph had some rubbish about Pele's feats being even more incredible due to the fact that all the best players in the world played in Brazil at the time. The fact is that the Brazilian domestic football scene was incredibly diluted compared to the top leagues of any European nation.
Note that Pele never played more than 8 games in a season in the Torneio Rio-São Paulo, and only twice did he average more than a goal a game. In the Taça de Prata and Campeonato Brasileiro Pele never got close ot averaging a goal a game. However in the weaker Campeonato Paulista, where he played most of his competitive matches, Pele averaged more than a goal a game in ten seperate seasons. I personally think the numbers back up the above highlighted sentence. aLii 20:28, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 1966 world cup section

the "hungary" link links to portugal not hungary.

The good thing is you can fix it yourself, by pressing the "edit this page" button. Anyways, it is now corrected :) Poulsen 11:02, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GA passed

1. Well written? Pass
2. Factually accurate? Pass
3. Broad in coverage? Pass
4. Neutral point of view? Pass
5. Article stability? Pass
6. Images? Pass


Additional comments :

  • The article should state his name as Pelé not as sometimes written Pele (that should be easy to fix).
  • The end of the section Santos is a bit weak.
  • In the table, the club names should be valigned in the center.

Lincher 17:07, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cultural depictions of Pelé

I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this as a model for the editors here. Regards, Durova 15:04, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

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