Talk:Pederasty in ancient Greece

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Older discussion has been archived: Archive 1

Contents 1 Anonymous complaints 2 Seminal matters 3 Evolution of pederasty

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[edit] Anonymous complaints

This article is very misleading, it makes it sound like everyone was homosexual, when in fact homosexuality was against the law in Athens and Sparta, pederasty was punishable by death. Why is that not mentioned in the article ? Who wrote this article ? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.22.98.162 (talk • contribs) .

And who posted the note, asserting that pederasty was punishable by death? --Wetman 02:20, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Both Aristotle and Plato's Laws unequivocably condemn homosexuality. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.22.98.162 (talk • contribs) .

That is a vague and misleading formulation, since Plato in the Laws was condemning anal intercourse with boys (please quote source for Aristotle). That is not inconsistent with his support for chaste pederasty in Phaedrus and the Symposium. It is also demonstrably false, since what is currently understood by "homosexuality" and what Plato wrote about are two very different things. Haiduc 09:58, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

I checked the article and noticed that some important material on opposition was removed when breaking out the article on Philosophy of Greek pederasty. I have restored the part about Plato's Laws. If you have other material that you feel needs to be quoted here please discuss. Haiduc 10:13, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

There are more homosexuals in the United States today than in all of Ancient Greece, and homosexuality was considered normal in Ancient Judaea and Jerusalem, which was the San Francisco of that time, and still is.

Wikipedia is packed with homosexuals, more than even Jerusalem. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.22.98.162 (talk • contribs) .

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This subject requires attention away from personal belief systems. There are several points to make with reference to the above:

Most Greek men expressed their bisexuality through this relationship. Please note that sexual intimacy itself was not frowned upon, if it was processed in the "correct" manner. Anal penetration was stigmatised, a citizen caught in the passive act would find himself in the courts. The reason? To make yourself a passive partner and allow yourself to be penetrated was mimicing the female sexual role. In a mysoginistic society this was a cardinal sin. For metics, or any other males, it was acceptable. The ideal pederastic relationship saw the young boy receive attention from an older male, he was meant to play "hard to get" and thus test the resolve and intention of the older man. The young boy would receive instruction from his older lover, and as such importance was stressed at the suitablility of him.

True the older lover was expected to house sexual motives, but they would not involve penetration. That was the "ideal" to what extent this happened is up for debate.

One theory is that this relationship took the place of the father/son relationship as there was a large age-gap between both. If you assume the average male married when he was expected to (around 30) and add to this that his son would be looked after mostly by his mother till the age of 7 it is possible that many fathers never really bonded with their sons. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Scamander (talk • contribs) .

[edit] Seminal matters

Removed this from text: Some research has shown that ancient Greeks believed semen, more specifically sperm, to be the source of knowledge, and that these relationships served to pass wisdom on from the erastes to the eromenos within society. Didn't find any sources. Haiduc 13:11, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

I think it was Bethe who mentioned that the man's arete (Αρετή) was believed to

be transferred to the boy via anal penetration. I don't know for sure, but this may

have also been the case with the ancient Persians.

Dan Asad 06:41, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Evolution of pederasty

"Greek pederasty went through a series of changes over the millennium from its entry into the historical record and its final demise as an official institution. In some areas, such as Athens, the construction of the relationship seems to have gone from greater modesty in the early days to a freer physicality and lack of restraint in classical times, followed by a return to a more spiritual form in the early fifth century. Its formal end resembled its beginning, in that it came by official decree – that of emperor Justinian, who also put an end to other institutions that sustained ancient culture, such as Plato's Academy and the Olympic Games."

Does anyone know where i can find more information regarding the evolution of greek pederasty? This paragraph is all there is in the article. Thanks. (66.189.104.220 15:42, 29 August 2006 (UTC))

There is little specific material out there, rather there are different presentations at different times, from Homer (Telemachos & Pisistratos in the Oddysey, not properly addressed yet in the literature) to pseudo-Lucian's Erotes, eleven or twelve hundred years later. Read Percy and Sergent. Haiduc 23:34, 29 August 2006 (UTC)