Talk:Peanuts

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Date of review: 27 November 2006

Contents

[edit] Sections

(Discussion moved from User talk:Mike1) - jc37 21:23, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Nice work on Peanuts : )

A couple thoughts:

  • We're supposed to try to minimize the "trivia" section in "Good Articles". And Cultural Influences is one of the suggested sections for such articles.
  • I don't know if we need so much material about Schulz's religious background (especially since it already exists in his own article). Noting that the strips had at times a religious theme, should be enough. (And The Gospel According to Peanuts is obviously a licensed property which should be listed with the others.)
  • I honestly don't know what we should do with the final Sunday Strip. I think it's out of place higher up in the history section, but formatting-wise it's pretty bad at the end of that section as well. I thought placing it at the top of the cast section worked because it's adjacent to the end of the history section, and because it shows so many vignettes of the cast.

Watching here for your thoughts : ) - jc37 03:28, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

I assume that means you would like me to respond here. Funny, I was just about to post a similar message to your talk page :-).
  • I think that the previous wording about the religious themes is more appropriate as it better explains the religious aspects of the strip by briefly explaining Schulz's religious background, and in general to me is better written. If you would agree to change it back I would appreciate it. BTW, sorry for reverting that as I messed up your image re-sizing in the process. I'll be more careful next time :-).
  • I agree that the trivia section is not the best idea, but what you did was simply a renaming of the trivia section and to me it looked kind od weird to see a list thrown in the middle of the article. I'm open to change in this area, perhaps changing it into paragraph form and taking out some of the cruft.
  • I have no idea what to do with the final Sunday strip either, but I think it looks better as it is than the way you had formatted it. Maybe we can move it over to the left somewhere?
Your work on Peanuts has been fantastic as well! I hope that we can get this up to FA standards soon! - Mike | Happy Thanksgiving 03:39, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Taking them in order : )
  1. Perhaps I am missing something, but the two sections are exactly the same, except for fixing grammar and sense. Can you clarify?
  2. I placed Cultural Influences at the end, just ahead of trivia. (Where I was/am presuming it should be.)
  3. What didn't you like about it introducing the Cast?
- jc37 03:58, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
  1. They are very similar, but I just think that the old version was better written with better flow :-).
  2. That was a good idea, but I still think that we should convert it to paragraph form.
  3. I don't know what you're talking about, sorry :-P. If you're talking about the use of the final Sunday strip for that purpose, I'm not sure I would agree with you. An image of the cast would be more appropriate (like the one in The Simpsons article) as the final comic strip is really the type of thing that belongs in the history. I'll try to find an image suitable for this.
Mike | Happy Thanksgiving 04:08, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
  1. I disagree, but then, I edited both versions : ) - I'll take a look at both later and try to see what you're talking about. (For one thing the version you support uses several uncitable comments.)
  2. No problem with the idea of paragraph form, if it can be clear : )
  3. Yes I meant the Sun. strip. As for the rest, the thing is, we're supposed to minimize the use of "fair use" images as well. While you're checking for images, try to find one to replace Charlie Brown in the infobox with a more inclusive one of the cast. (The Charlie Brown image is already in good use on that character's article page.)
That's all for me today, I'll check back later or tomorrow : ) - jc37 04:18, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Okay, no problem. I've uploaded and added an image of the entire cast. Hope you like it! - Mike | Happy Thanksgiving 04:33, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Looks great : ) - Is this another fair use image? - jc37 12:00, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Trivia

I merged/deleted the trivia section (noting here in reference to comments above):

  • Several examples were more charlie brown and snoopy examples, so I merged them to those pages.
  • I added a baseball team paragraph to characters. (I was suprised it didn't already exist, considering that the team consists of nearly all the strip regulars.)
  • I re-created the "influences" section. And also added links to the sections related to influences at the charlie brown and snoopy articles, since they were more inclusive, and this way it stems the tide of additions that are specific to those characters only.

I am thinking that maybe we should create: List of Peanuts influences, analogues, and parodies (or some such name). It's quite a large section on several pages (as noted above). - jc37 06:58, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

It was quite a bit of work, but Peanuts in popular culture now exists (though in desperate need of references). This also served to clean up several peanuts articles. Enjoy : ) - jc37 12:17, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Wow, nice work! Thanks for taking the time to do that; the pop culture sections of this and the Snoopy article were getting pretty long, especially as nearly every cartoon seems to reference them at some point in the run. Just the nature of its popularity, I guess. --Birdhombre 13:52, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Religion

Yesterday I did sort of a fusion of the two versions that should be in the article now. Hope that works! - Mike | Talk 01:09, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Honestly I'm not sure what you "fused" : ) - jc37 12:00, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm kinda on wikibreak here, but I just noticed this. What I did was take both versions and kind of mix them together into a way that seemed most suitable. I see that you have removed the entire section, however. Why don't you consider the religious themes of Peanuts' to be appropriate for the article? It is obvious that Christianity has always had a place in the world of the strip, and a sentence or two about Schulz's religious background helps put that into perspective. - Mike | Talk 04:13, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
The strip is a microcosm of the society of the times, and so obviously Shulz included religion as a part of that, but that doesn't mean it should have its own section, any more than the "controversy" comments in the history have their own section.
As for the section itself:
  • 1.) There's a stanza about The Gospel according to Peanuts. - This shouldn't be a part of the article proper, it's a licensed product that also falls under "influences". If in doubt, compare to the myriad books which reference Star Wars : )
  • 2.) Read the following section and tell me that it belongs anywhere in the "Peanuts" article. (I considered the Schulz bio section, but it just seemed out-of-place):
  • 3.) That leaves only a single stanza, which I merged into the strip history.
Hopes this helps clarify. - jc37 02:00, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Charles M. Schulz section

Hi, I noticed this section was removed. I think that it was a decent overview, but sort of out of place. Still, I think that a little info about the creator is certainly relevany and worthy of mention somewhere in the article. May I revert this edit so we can discuss the change first? - Mike | Talk 01:03, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I believe that section was non-relevant to the article, and having the creator mentioned in the article's beginning was enough. Although, we can merge the biography of the creator inside the article, using terms such as: "due to Schulz's health problems, the quality of the final strips has significantly changed". Besides, such section doesn't exist in most other comics-releated articles, for example, X-Men and Spider-Man. Michaelas10 (Talk) 18:27, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
I have to agree with Mike here. Also Spiderman, and X-Men are a different situation entirely. (Single contributor vs. multiple contributors). - jc37 12:00, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Michael that the section should be merged into the History section. And as for single contributor vs. multiple contributors, check out the Calvin and Hobbes article, which even is a featured article, and has no section on Bill Watterson either... --Fritz Saalfeld (Talk) 11:17, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Just because it doesn't have one, doesn't mean it's "wrong" to have one. : ) - jc37 02:00, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
I never said it is "wrong", I just think it isn't needed and doesn't really add anything to the article (except length). And maybe a little confusion to the reader since the first section in an article on Peanuts goes without mentioning the strip. I think merging that little text into the History section would make much more sense. --Fritz Saalfeld (Talk) 11:21, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually it's the first "sub-section". The first section (the introduction) explains rather clearly who Charles Schulz is:

  • "Peanuts was a syndicated daily comic strip written and illustrated by Charles M. Schulz, which ran from October 2, 1950, to February 13, 2000--the day after Schulz's death. The strip was one of the most popular and influential in the history of the medium. At its peak, Peanuts ran in over 2,600 newspapers, with a readership of 355 million in 75 countries, and was translated into 40 languages. It helped to cement the four-panel gag strip as the standard in the United States. Reprints of the strip are still syndicated and run in many newspapers."

I don't see how that can be considered "confusing"?

Also, the "history" section should only be about the strip itself, not it's creator, not licensed material, not the subsequent animation, just the strip. : ) - jc37 05:41, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Even if it's "just" the first sub-section, it's still a little off-topic, don't you think? All other sections deal with some aspect of Peanuts while this one doesn't even mention it. What I meant by "confusing" is that in an article on Peanuts, I would expect to read something actually about Peanuts -- especially in the first sub-section -- and I feel this section strays from the topic. But if you think it should really be there, I'm fine with that. --Fritz Saalfeld (Talk) 15:00, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Good article?

I just nominated this for "Good Article" standing. Even if it fails, we should get a fair amount of insight on what further should be done. - jc37 14:12, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

good idea, lets just hope that people wont disagree with out any reason.Phoenix741 14:37, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Final comics

Also, I think we will need to have spoiler warnings on the "last comics". - jc37 12:00, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

While I'm not certain of my above comment, I do think we should discuss what to do about the two final comics. I don't think placing either of the final comics at the top of the history section is a good idea. Formatting suggestions are also welcome : ) - jc37 14:22, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I thought that spoilers were to keep people from losing shock from a big event. I would think every one would know about peanuts not being around.Phoenix741 14:32, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Needs fair use rationale

Very few of the images used in this article have fair use rationale. I could fail your GA nomination right now without even reading the article, but I'm too tired for that. Just fix it before the next reviewer comes along. --SeizureDog 03:06, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

While IANAL, I think I have at least a decent idea about fair use. However, in general, I'm not well versed in image use on Wikipedia. The images would seem to be tagged. What further needs to be done? (Pleas edumacate me : ) - jc37 08:20, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Simply put, you have to say why you feel it to be considered fair use in addition to the tag. Most users really don't bother with this step until they try to get GA or FA status (they are very anal about it at Featured level). For a basic idea of what you need to do, visit any Featured Article concerning a trademarked franchise. Superman is a good example. Two things to always include is the fact that a free image is impossible due to the nature of the matter and the purpose that perticular picture serves. Additional things on how the use of the image shouldn't hurt the copyright owner due to it being low resolution, meant for public distribution, etc. are nice extras. In the article I recently nominated for GA, Shuffle!, I kept the image rationale short and simple. For example, in Image:AverageShuffle!Day.JPG I merely have "Navel has released no free images of Shuffle!" and "The image serves to illustrate the basic gameplay of Shuffle!" That pretty much covers why I have those use unfree images. People generally won't fail an article for GA for having too little rationale, just for not having any rationale. However, once you get up to trying for featured article, it's best to play it safe and go overboard a little. Observe the following image's fair use rationale from E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial (Atari 2600): Image:ET2600-Pit.gif. Though you probably shouldn't do that last reasoning, I was just getting a get tired of anal nitpickers ;) All in vain too, still wasn't able to get it to FA. Oh well, I ended up talking a lot there, but hopefully you understand what to do now. And if you wouldn't mind reviewing Shuffle! I'd be happy to review Peanuts again (in-depth this time). I'm so very impatient, it'll drive me mad to see Shuffle! just setting there waiting to get reviewed in the coming days. --SeizureDog 08:58, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
I have to agree that perhaps the last comment at the ET image should probably be removed, but it did make me laugh : )
So the concept is to list on the image page, under the image itself, a section for each article in which it's included, which explains the reasons why it should be considered fair use? Also, Is this something anyone can do, or can only the uploader? - jc37 10:17, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Yep, that's pretty much the jist of it. Though on a side note, you have to be sure to include a new set of fair use rationale for each article you use in the image in. You can't just have a universal fair use rationale, as different articles may need the same picture for different reasons. As a recent personal example, I included Image:Push!!May2006.jpg in the Push!! article to show how the magazine itself looks, but I included it in Nostradamus ni Kiite Miro♪ to illustrate the game that it was previewing. Image:CharlieBrown.jpg should probably technically be split into two rationales, but its basically fine merged like it is. For future habit though, have different sections: even if it is mostly just the same copied and pasted statements reworded a little. As for who adds the fair use rationale, anyone can do it, but generally the uploader should seeing how he was the one with the specific idea of how it was needed. I'm not adding them though, as I want to be hands-off so I can review the article without being a major contributor. --SeizureDog 10:38, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Seems User:Steve block has taken care of it on the lead image. I'll take a look at some of the other images, but I'm admittedly not the best at judging copyright stuff. - Mike (Talk) 20:43, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
I added a fair use rationale to the final sunday comic strip. Please check to make sure this is sufficient. - Mike (Talk) 20:49, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
After reading it, it occurs to me that we should probably remove the last daily strip, and merely comment about it, since everything in the last daily strip is also in the last Sunday strip. I'll make the change, and you all can let me know what you think. - jc37 20:53, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. - Mike (Talk) 20:54, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Could you find a clearer version of it though? It's too blurry, I can't read it. Failing that, could you at least transcribe what is being said?--SeizureDog 22:21, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Here's the link to the final daily: Image:FinaldailyPeanuts.jpg. - jc37 22:29, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
  • As noted above, I've been having a bash at the rationales per Jc's invite on my talk page. I think you are going to have to choose one collection's image in the collections section though, fair use images should generally be kept to an absolute minimum. Steve block Talk 22:00, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
    And it's much appreciated : ) - If one has to go, then the back-to-school one should go. It's a general example, and really, not the one I would choose as the sole example. (The cover to The Wonderful World of Peanuts, would have been my first choice). Plus, we should probably have the first volume of the reprint series as an example for that template. - jc37 22:08, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
    Sweet. I also removed the gospel according to image, I think that may also be one too many. I haven't done the Snoopy image as yet, since it's actually rather bad. It has shading on the right hand side, presumably because it's off a thermos and cylindrical surfaces don't maintain the best contact with a flatbed scanner. I'm going to look for a better image for Snoopy. Also, the final sunday strip has no source. People might want to track one down. The image is probably brilliant, it's muddy and unclear. I'd guess it is scanned from a newspaper, but I couldn't swear to it. The uploader has been absent since Aug, so maybe no luck there either. Steve block Talk 22:30, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
    This may help? - jc37 22:36, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
    Yeah. I don't know how strict we have to be with the source nowadays, but normally it is to protect/identify the copyright holders. Since we don't have an issue there, it doesn't overly matter which source we credit. SO we'll go with that and see what happens. Steve block Talk 22:46, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
    Oh. I was answering the concern about "blurriness" as well. Didn't know if we could just use that image from the site. - jc37 22:52, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
    I like the fact that it is blurry. That means we have a more solid fair use claim. Steve block Talk 23:09, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Failed GA

Well, I read through the article, and while it seems pretty good, it is criminially short on references. Only two real citations are given for the whole article. I say two because we're not supposed to cite ourselves (Wikipedia), so give that a new cite too. One glaring problem I see is in examples such as "A poll in 2002 found...". A poll could have been anything, even made up. You have to say were you got your information. I added tags to some information I noticed that has to be cited, but that's just the beginning. Even the more general information needs to have as many citations as you can find. For an comic of Peanuts' standing, I would expect at least 15 cites, with many being print sources. I didn't even check the images this time around. Sorry guys, but due these multiple problems I'm going to have to go ahead and fail the article.--SeizureDog 22:49, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, that's disappointing, but at least we know what needs to be done next. Speaking of which, you mentioned print sources, what sort of things are you looking for? Peanuts publications, or some other publication writing about Peanuts/Schulz? - jc37 22:54, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
While I think that the article has vastly improved, I do agree with failing the GA on refs for now. When this first became the collab there were no refs at all, and although we have added a few, work is still needed on that. I'll see what I can do when I get more time. - Mike (Talk) 23:02, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Woah, it failed that quickly? Cripes, another hour or so I'd have given you the sources. Meh. I love this place. Steve block Talk 23:08, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
    Well, perhaps we can just relist it once "fixed"? Or is there a time frame that must exist between listings? - jc37 23:18, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't think so, but it would be a good idea to wait some time, in order to allow time to fix stuff.Phoenix741 23:22, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
I'll remind you that there is no downtime for GA. Once you've managed to fix it up I'd be happy to re-review it for you. And in responce to Steve's comment, you're supposed to have everything ready with you put it up for consideration :P --SeizureDog 23:30, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] FA

  • Jc, just go straight for Featured Article status. There you get a chance to react to comments rather than comments and an axe falling together. It's not ready yet, but it is cooking. Of the FA criteria, I'm not worried about the writing, they can fix that, but the sources do need to be addressed. I'll dust off my library and have a bash in the coming week, hit the books, find the sources and we'll take it there. What do you reckon? Steve block Talk 23:51, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Sounds fine with me. Let me know when you think I should "put it up". I only did the "GA" step because I was under the impression that we needed to do that first : ) - I have a small library of Peanuts myself, so I'll help however I can : ) - jc37 01:29, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
    • Wikipedia:Peer review is the first step, really. Looking at the good article criteria and the featired article criteria I can't tell the difference. Really though, I find them all bureaucratic nightmares. My experiences of both of them have bordered on the surreal, and like I say, I'm not really a badge wearer. But it would be nice to see this article at featured status. What is needed is that every statement which asserts something which could be disputed is sourced. Then we need to check the article over for comprehensiveness. I think there will be problems with the prose, but I think there will be people in the Featured review who are amenable to helping. If not, I will try and tap up some loose contacts. So sourcing first. Steve block Talk 20:41, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
      • I agree that peer review would be an excellent idea at this point. with all the new sources, I actually think it would pass a GA nom now, but it's never a bad idea to get a second opinion. I would love to see this get up to FA status! ~ Mike (Talk) 20:12, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Li'l Folks was dropped in 1949

In the history section we state "Li'l Folks was dropped in 1949", but most sources say Schulz quit because he was refused a raise, more space and a move from the women's page to the comic's page. What's the source on the dropping? Steve block Talk 23:21, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] You need help Charlie Brown

This one book ((c) 1964) has a lot of "detail" that may or may not be useful for this article, or even associated articles:

  • First example of Snoopy's tardis-like dog house: "I can always tell when they have come to my Van Gogh."
  • Linus for school pres, and Charie Brown for vp (and the great pumpkin as the spoiler : )
  • Felicitas est parvus canis calidus
  • Charlie brown and the book report on Gulliver's Travels
  • Linus: "How depressing..." "ANNETTE FUNICELLO HAS GROWN UP!"
  • Miss Othmar going envelope happy, and needing some time "away".
  • Linus' blanket going anthropomorphic, several times attacking Lucy.
  • First time Charlie Brown meets of Roy (at camp)
  • Sally and "New Math"
  • Sally first wearing her eye patch.
  • And what the heck is the deal with "Sydney or the Bush"? (Guessing it's an australian reference?)

Hope it helps : ) - jc37 22:04, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Shouldn't we block this article??

I have been looking at it, and there seems to be alot of vandalism going on? I know that this is the comics colab of the month, but shouldn't we block it from unresisted users to make all the vandalism stop. Phoenix741 21:40, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

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