Talk:Paul McCartney

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To-do list for Paul McCartney:

edit · history · watch · refresh

[edit] Sections and general tasks Finish adding in facts and citations, then copyedit for flow, quality of prose, wikilinks (preferably with the help of a good editor who hasn't worked on the article); do an AWB cleanup (wikify dates, rm redundant repeated wikilinks); act on/remove any remaining HTML comments. At the end, some refs might be convertible to "passim". Also, if possible, it would be great to go through some other books e.g. on The Beatles or alternative texts on McCartney and "double cite" as appropriate, or note any discrepancies. Then the article is solid as a rock. Work on the lead on this talk page: we need 3 or 4 substantial paragraphs summarising the article (see WP:LEAD) Check that the lead contains nothing not in the body (Talk:Paul_McCartney#Redundancy_check) Expand companion article(s): MPL Communications - [1] and [2] may be worth a look for suitable info. Red links to turn blue: Bag o'Nails ([3] - possible info), My Brave Face, Oobu Joobu Tidy up companion article(s): Paul McCartney discography Songwriting and musicianship: We have the background info, but do we need more from later years and more commentary on styles, influences etc.? Sections: 1960s: Currently jumps from the formation of The Beatles to 1966 without explanation. This is gradually being filled in by Andreas. We need to fill in those missing years with particular emphasis on McCartney's role and experiences during that exciting time. We also need to capture some of the excitement: Macca was on top of the world, a member of the biggest band in the world. Add a paragraph on Paul is dead. Solo: If we decide to keep this arrangement, we need a paragraph of introduction to the "solo" section, which is basically McCartney II to date, with subsections for each decade. 1970s: Post-Beatles relationship with Lennon: Needs some more details of McCartney's relationship with Lennon - or lack thereof - in the early 1970s and more details of their reported making up. What happened to the text on the Ram/Imagine episode? I thought I'd put some in? Paul_McCartney#1980s: Possibly a bit slim? What was the "theme" of the decade? Success as a pop star I suppose, and collaborations, I suppose? Frog Chorus? Paul_McCartney#1990s: Stub section. "Theme" of decade? Declining sales? 2000s: "Theme" of decade? Critical rejuvanation on the back of successful tours? Paul_McCartney#Lifestyle: Needs an intro. Paul_McCartney#Achievements_and_critical_reception: Needs an intro. Paul_McCartney#Discography: Perhaps needs a paragraph of prose? Needs formatting. Fair use rationales for pictures Images needed/wanted: The picture of Lennon holding a pig. Free or appropriate fair use images of Jane Asher, Linda McCartney, Heather Mills McCartney. (The image of George Harrison might have to be replaced too). Audio samples ABOVE LIST NEEDS TO BE CHECKED AND COMPLETED ITEMS REMOVED [edit] Specific issues - citations, troublesome sentences, etc. "In 1974, Wings achieved hits with the singles "Jet"[citation needed] , "Band on the Run"[citation needed] and "Junior's Farm"."[citation needed] - Place chart positions and source for each "hit" into footnotes. Marriage to Linda: A couple of references to and perhaps a direct quotation about the "idyllic marriage", one of showbiz's "miracle marriages", should be somewhere in this section. (Maybe a quote from Linda also?) More criticisms in critique? Divorce: If estimates range from £50m, we need a citation for that estimate. We can't guess. expand this to-do section with the HTML comments in the article

It is requested that an image be included in this article to improve its quality, if possible. This image request is specifically for the picture of Lennon holding a pig from Imagine, to offset against the sleeve of Ram.

It is requested that an image be included in this article to improve its quality, if possible. This image request is specifically for a free image of Jane Asher.

It is requested that an image be included in this article to improve its quality, if possible. This image request is specifically for a free image of Linda McCartney.

It is requested that an image be included in this article to improve its quality, if possible. This image request is specifically for a free image of Heather Mills McCartney.

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Archives
October 2006 November 2006 December 2006

[edit] Article size, todo

I've taken 3kb off by removing the HTML comments and some excessive detail. Please don't put the HTML comments about references back. I know they have some value but we can't afford the bytes.

I've done a bit to the todo list but will have to come back to attend it to more fully and do my share of the copyediting. --kingboyk 19:53, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I have taken out bits here and there that were Maccas own POV, or irrelevant. (The cats and Jagger-pot have gone.) I also had to take out the references as well, which was soddin' worse than pulling teeth. (Ow...) --andreasegde 07:02, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I have been taking out more (but it still hurts...) Should the Macca quote about 'Give Ireland back to the Irish' being banned be taken out? It's not that special. I also checked the article's word count, and it's about 13,000 words. --andreasegde 07:49, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

When taking info out can we please make sure it ends up in another relevant article? For example, the above Macca quote would be helpful in the song's actual article. If it's general Wings info for example, can we make sure it still ends up in the article for Wings? LuciferMorgan 12:42, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Bugger, I forgot about that. Bugger, bugger, bugger.... Can you retrieve any? No, that's my job. Bugger. --andreasegde 13:11, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

The info can easily be retrieved by checking the edit history. I'll take a look later when I got time to see if there's anything else that can be used in a "daughter" article - I wouldn't worry Andreas, you're kicking ass with the article anyway. LuciferMorgan 13:53, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Lucifer. (I hate to say that I was asked to do it before). I've started to do it (honest) even putting 'Notes' and 'References' into the smaller articles. BTW, Macca's 70s reads, and looks, a lot smoother now, methinks... --andreasegde 21:59, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

The 2000s needs a clean. Anyone fancy getting the mop and bucket out? --andreasegde 23:10, 6 December 2006 (UTC) Done a lot of it.

[edit] Macca's 'porky-pies'

I don't get this: Macca says that he broke up Wings because he didn't want to tour, but he released (the solo) McCartney II before Lennon's death. "Wings resumed activity in 1980" (after his 2nd solo album)... Methinks he had decided to disband Wings before Lennon's death, and used it as an excuse. He never reformed Wings when he started to tour again... "Back to the Egg" (last Wings album) also had no hit singles, and he released that 'christmas thingy' as Macca solo. "The game is afoot, my dear Watson." Too harsh on Macca? Kick me where it hurts... --andreasegde 09:34, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Copyedit

Article has a quite good basis but needs copyedit, especially including:

• consistent date format: day month year, e.g., 9 October, 1940
• careful trimming of unnecessary words
• The article is too long, but that's already been noted. Raymond Arritt 01:15, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I have a question for Raymond Arritt, LuciferMorgan, and for everybody else: Should the song/album titles be so: Song, "Song", or "Song" ?? (Somebody throw a towel in the ring for me - I'm knackered....) --andreasegde 01:27, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I vote for "Song" as it's the form used in The Beatles. I especially dislike the double-emphasis form (quotes and italics, as in "Song"). Raymond Arritt 03:01, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

"Song" for song titles, Album for album titles. That's the Wikipedia way. --kingboyk 06:21, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Lol - Wait a minute... what do you mean by "quite good"? I have been reliably informed that this article is "kicking rectum".  :)) --andreasegde 02:04, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with that bloke that has a girl's name. --Andrew Edge 02:31, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure who's confused -- is it you, or me? ;-) Raymond Arritt 03:01, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Good, that's all sorted then. OK boys, back to class. --Mr Hornby 14:52, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Word count

Roughly 12,500. --Sir Sean de Garde 16:59, 7 December 2006 (UTC) Talk page should be archived as well... --Sir Sean de Garde 17:02, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I suppose (if the size becomes a serious problem - sigh...) there is stuff in The Quarrymen (304 words) that could be moved, and some of The Beatles stuff, like the condom, groups of guitars are on the way out etc... Making a new article called McCartney's family life/wives could be created as well. --andreasegde 17:12, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Size is already a problem. The "Family life" and "Art, writing and classical music" sections could be trimmed way down -- they're worth having, but in current form are disproportionately long. Raymond Arritt 17:17, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Trimming down means we're getting rid of interesting stuff, so all please make sure the info ends up in other appropriate articles. LuciferMorgan 17:57, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Macca / Radio Times

There is a feature in this (next) weeks RT re The La'. I will give it a read to see if it adds anything (hopefully topical) to the article - or any related ones. However, I don't want to add anything unnecessary/trivial.LessHeard vanU 00:20, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Nothing of note that hasn't been mentioned elsewhere.LessHeard vanU 11:46, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Deleting and moving

As LuciferMorgan has pointed out, it is imperative that anything that is deleted is moved to relevant articles - when possible. (I refer to the Jane Asher section). The concert at the Royal Albert Hall was organised by the BBC, but it was not moved to Asher's article (which needs more input). I know it's a pain, but it has to be done. --andreasegde 20:29, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Well the thing is, it improves other Beatles related articles then. LuciferMorgan 20:26, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Really, everything deleted has to be relocated elsewhere? Every trivial little detail? I can foresee a situation where people keep shuffling these things back and forth. Google for "mathom". Raymond Arritt 20:42, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

If it's a piece of information that will make an article worth reading, it is worthwhile. Asher's article needs more information (as well the in-line citation that was also deleted from Macca). It doesn't mean you have to organise the other articles, but just put it in there somewhere, and it will be organised by someone who is interested in it. --andreasegde 23:24, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

P.S. I spent a lot of time reading the books and putting the citations in there, so to see them deleted leaves me feeling somewhat disgruntled. If the original writers thought they were worthy, then who are we to argue? --andreasegde 23:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm a real demon for conciseness and focus. (At work I'm famous for putting a big red X through entire pages.) I'm trying to put myself in the position of someone who isn't a crazed überfan like I am, and who might not be interested in every minute detail such as who played tambourine on "I Am The Walrus" (it was Paul, btw) or that Barry Miles's address in London was 15 Hanson Street. It's all a matter of judgment. Please don't take it disgruntledly - if you think I've gone overboard on conciseness and deleted something important, add it back in. I bet that between the two of us we can strike a good balance. Raymond Arritt 00:42, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I totally agree with you, Raymond Arritt, but I refer you to the point I made below, about moving, and places to move them to. (Barry Miles also has an article) Could we create more new articles? If we had one (or two) more Macca-related articles, we could easily lose 1,000 words. --andreasegde 04:24, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Miles' address has gone (with citation, of course) to his own article. --andreasegde 04:30, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Listy

Article reads repetitively listy in places. "In 2000", "In 1999" etc. etc. - can you see what I'm referring to? This might need addressing. LuciferMorgan 20:32, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed -- it's on my to-do list. Raymond Arritt 20:45, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I also think that's a very good point, LuciferMorgan. --andreasegde 00:23, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wings

The Wings' section could be heavily trimmed, and a lot of stuff moved (with citations) to the Wings' article. --andreasegde 23:56, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Heather Mills' section could also be trimmed. --andreasegde 01:04, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Loads of things could be trimmed - we won't have an article soon enough! LuciferMorgan 01:08, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia's recommendation for maximum article length is 6000 to 10,000 words. In its present form, the article is about 12,000 words. An article considerably longer than the recommended maximum is in no danger of disappearing soon! Raymond Arritt 01:57, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

The article length is now about 11,500. --andreasegde 17:02, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I have been trimming Lady Mucca (and moving citations as well). 500 to 1,000 more words and we're in for the kill... (Sorry, Sir Macca, for using a comment about killing things "with a face"). --andreasegde 17:10, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cut, cut, cut

The main problem seems to be is that we have to delete/move 1,000 words to other articles, but there are not enough articles to move them to. (I think that this must be a new problem for Wikipedians...) What new 'Macca-related' articles can we create to get around this problem? (Fork articles? It's a forking problem...)

• McCartney's family?
• McCartney's drug use?
• McCartney and art/literature?
• McCartney's use of indoor plumbing facilities (with guitar)? :)

(Good grief, I wish I had known about this size thing becoming a problem before I started balancing the books on my knees... :)

--andreasegde 18:15, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Voting on forking:

• I vote for a separate article on the art/literature stuff. Let's face it, most people are interested in Paul because of his accomplishments in pop music, plus maybe some personal background (like family and drug use). We could have a brief mention of his work in non-pop fields that points to to the spinoff article or articles. Raymond Arritt 04:54, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
• I agree with forking his art/literature stuff. --andreasegde 04:56, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
• Not particularly happy at losing any entire section, but if one has to be reduced to a summary it would have to be that one. --kingboyk 06:26, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
• Yes, it would leave a summary, but it would reduce the article size. I think the article is brilliant, but we have to cut, cut, cut. Oh, the pain... --andreasegde 06:46, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

10,991 words so far. Maybe it would be possible without forking? (View of crossed fingers, legs and arms...) --andreasegde 19:01, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

10,776........ I seem to be spending a lot of time creating "Notes" and "References" on other pages. All those lovely citations are being given away for free - Oh, how my heart bleeds...  :)) --andreasegde 19:34, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I am starting to think it is possible to cut 770 words. Am I talking to myself? --andreasegde 20:03, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes you are... --Sir Sean de Garde 20:04, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Now, now, boys, clean the blackboard and straighten the chairs. We'll have no disturbances here... --Mr Hornby 20:05, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh, sod off. --Andrew Edge 20:13, 12 December 2006 (UTC)