Talk:Patrick Moore (environmentalist)

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See the archive for discussion on previous versions of this article, which has since been almost entirely rewritten.

I believe that it is misleading and inaccurate to characterize Patrick Moore as an "environmentalist."

According to Wikipedia "In modern times, environmentalism is related to the environmental movement, which stresses the necessity for designation and maintenance of public land, roadless area conservation, waste management, recycling, regulation of industrial and other pollution, preservation of biodiversity, regulation of genetically engineered organisms, and prevention of a global climate crisis, as well as ozone depletion."

Therefore, Patrick Moore cannot be an environmentalist. He is paid by the timber industry and the nuclear industry to lobby the public on their behalf, under the guise of environmentalism. He openly admits to receiving $$ from these interests, and his statements are patently anti-environmentalist.

The term "environmentalist" should be removed from both the title of this article, and from the opening paragraph.

[edit] Paul Watson paragraphs

I removed the huge quotes from Watson's website again, let's discuss them line by line:

Dr. Moore has been criticized by environmentalists however for his support of nuclear power and genetically modified organisms.

This is already said below, "Patrick Moore has been criticized by environmentalists for many of his views detailed above."

Paul Watson, co-founder of Greenpeace and also founder of the Sea Shepard Society has a different take on the situation than Moore, "In June 1977, Paul Watson resigned from the Greenpeace Foundation because of disagreements with the emerging bureaucratic structure of the organization. Patrick Moore had replaced Robert Hunter and was opposed to direct action campaigns. Moore had informed Watson that he would not be allowed to lead another seal campaign (this refers to Watson's tactics of intervention

I now incorporated this: "Paul Watson, another co-founder of Greenpeace, quit the organization after Moore allegedly called a meeting to expel him from the board amid disagreements over Watson's direct action campaigns."

in an attempt to stop the brutal clubbing to death of baby harp seals - often in front of their frantic mothers [1]; Watson would spray green paint on the white fur so as to make it unattractive to the fur industry). Paul left Greenpeace because he felt the original goals of the organization were being compromised, and because he saw a global need to continue direct action conservation activities on the high seas by an organization that would enforce laws protecting marine wildlife" [2]

I think this is too verbose for this article, should be in Paul Watson's.

"He [Moore] uses his status as co-founder of Greenpeace to give credibility to his accusations. I am also a co-founder of Greenpeace and I have known Patrick Moore for 35 years.... Moore makes accusations that have no basis in fact".

This is already in the article verbatim.

"Moore insists that he is a scientist first and foremost, and that his positions are influenced only by science. But this “scientist” who does not have a single peer-reviewed publication to his credit has challenged the credibility of real scientists like Dr. David Suzuki and Dr. E.O. Wilson. He makes outlandish statements like, 'There is more bio-diversity in a clear cut than in a parking lot in Vancouver but I don’t see anyone protesting against parking lots.' Over the years, Captain Paul Watson has challenged Dr. Patrick Moore to a public debate on numerous occasions. Pat has always refused" [3].

The biodiversity statement should be included if we can find another source, Google doesn't seem to turn up anything. As for feuds with Suzuki and Wilson, with more research those could be interesting too.

"And then there's money. Even 18 years after he left Greenpeace, Moore's business relationships with polluters and clear-cutters elicit disgust from his erstwhile comrades. 'He'll whore himself to anything to make a buck,' says Paul George, founder of the Western Canada Wildlife Committee. In an email, former Greenpeace director Paul Watson charges, 'You're a corporate whore, Pat, an eco-Judas, a lowlife bottom-sucking parasite who has grown rich from sacrificing environmentalist principles for plain old money'. Moore admits he's well paid for his speaking and consulting services. He won't say how well, avowing only that his environmental consultancy, Greenspirit Strategies, has been 'very successful because we know what we're talking about and give good advice.'" [4].

Added "His critics point out Moore's business relations with what they see as "polluters and clear-cutters" through his consultancy." This point needs to be expanded, but the quoted text is mostly just personal insults. --c3o 10:05, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

About half of the article refer to Moore as "Dr Moore". However this is a bit deceptive since, as Watson pointed out, "this “scientist” who does not have a single peer-reviewed publication to his credit has challenged the credibility of real scientists like Dr. David Suzuki and Dr. E.O. Wilson".

It should also be clearer that Watson quit Geenpeace due to Moore's emerging bureaucratic structure of the organization, not because of disagreements with others.

The cancelling of Watson's seal campaign is a good indicator of where Moore's sentiments lay. Spray painting some green on baby seals fur was not radical IMO.

The deletions appear to be a general watering down of the controversies.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.14.116.114 (talk • contribs) 30 June 2006.

>>About half of the article refer to Moore as "Dr Moore". However this is a bit deceptive since, as Watson pointed out, "this “scientist” who does not have a single peer-reviewed publication to his credit has challenged the credibility of real scientists like Dr. David Suzuki and Dr. E.O. Wilson".>>

The quote from Watson has no relevance to whether Moore is or is not a doctor. If, as stated in the article, he has a PhD in Ecology from the University of B.C., then he has every right to call to himself Dr Moore and it is perfectly reasonable (if perhaps more respectful of its subject than most wikipedia articles!) to refer to him as such. Besides, anyone with a PhD in a science subject Science from an accredited institution, is, i would say, a scientist. (you think you could get a science doctorate?... go ahead then..). Of course that doesn't prevent them making unscientific statements, and published, peer-reviewed articles are an accepted way of judging ones involvement in, and the quality of ones, scientific research, so the Watson quote has some force. but he's still Dr Moore:-).

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.20.244.207 (talk • contribs) 10 July 2006.

You're right that technically Moore has the right to the PHD due to a 1972 college thesis he wrote. But the point is that for a guy that pontificates about science he sure doesn't have much beef to show for it. Could it be that those who use the "Dr" here are just trying to impress others? I haven't checked but is "Dr" Kent Hovind listed as such in Wikipedia? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.14.116.114 (talk • contribs) 13 July 2006.

The biography section that keeps referring to him as Dr. Moore needs to be completely reworked anyway, it seems to be lifted straight from his website (with a few changes myself and others made to make it a bit less POV). Please go ahead and rewrite it if you have the time.

I don't see the edits as watering down the controversies, but providing an encyclopaedial view on them, which ought to be somewhat removed and neutral, and not just a huge blockquote from a critic that includes personal insults. --c3o 14:10, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

An example of the watering down IMO is the removal of the fact that Moore's father "was a logger and past president of the B.C. Truck Loggers Association" [5]. This could have concievably influenced his current views on logging. These views, whether public or private are central, I would think, to anyone interested in joining an environmental organization. Also removed were his failures at certain industries which could have led him to use his former standing as a Greenpeace founder to profit by. I sincerely doubt that all of these anti-environmental organizations which pay him for speaking are hoping to profit from his scientific expertise. Also he fact that Watson has challenged Moore to numerous debates all of which Moore has declined. And why would anyone refuse to allow someone (Watson) to protect baby seals from slaughter?

The overall tone of the page is an advertisement for Moore. Just my opinion. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.14.116.114 (talk • contribs) 13 July 2006.

As long as you can cite reliable sources and maintain a neutral point of view, please go ahead and add all of that (back) to the article. My main issues with the version previous to my edits were the article's lack of structure, the missing listing of his (controversial) beliefs and arguments and the reliance on several long paragraphs of criticism and even insults by clearly biased sources quoted verbatim. I do feel that the details of the Watson-Moore personal feud are a lot less interesting than a well-sourced listing of those "anti-environmental organizations" he's worked for, especially with accompanying articles that confirm their purpose/actions/track record.

A better article on Moore is found at Sourcewatch here. They are also a good source of info on the organizations Moore works for. I understand your thoughts on the insults, however I feel that they are germain because they are not coming from just anyone but from Greenpeace's other founder. For instance if some Joe Schmole said something like that about George Bush it would probably not be used in Wikipedia. But if Colen Powell made such comments they would certainly be quoted.

I think one of the things that galls me about Moore is the so transparent (to some) reasons that these corporations are working Moore: As a Greenpeace founder they are hoping to create a wedge to divide the environmental community (don't think it's working though). It's certainly not because of any scientific expertise on his part. And for his part Moore is using them to profit by, having failed in his own business ventures. From above "Moore admits he's well paid for his speaking and consulting services. He won't say how well, avowing only that his environmental consultancy, Greenspirit Strategies, has been 'very successful because we know what we're talking about and give good advice.'" As Watson said "He [Moore] uses his status as co-founder of Greenpeace to give credibility to his accusations". And also from above, It reeks of right wing think tank strategy IMO. Unfortunately I don't really have the time at present to redo the article; I think I've spent too much on it already. Maybe later. Okay let's try the sig. anon.

By the way, you can sign your posts on talk pages by typing --~~~~. You might also want to consider registering a username if you contribute to Wikipedia regularly. --c3o 00:11, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article neutral ?

I don't seen much wrong with this article. Moore's views are fairly mainstream, . Saying there is more biodiversity in a clearcut (Image:Biodiversity_on_clearcut )[6]then a parking lot(Image:Manhattancarpark)[7] is not that outrageous. KAM 00:03, 20 October 2006 (UTC)