Talk:Partnership minyan

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Contents 1 Possible misconcpetions 2 Some points 3 Sources 3.1 Sourcing Jewish law is neither easy nor simple and is very tricky 4 Title 5 Liberal Objections 6 Orthodox objections, recent article from Beth Din head 7 Shochetman Article

[edit] Possible misconcpetions

I believe IZAK's May 3 edits have raised a number of misconceptions about Partnership Minyanim. Because of these potential misconceptions, I believe it would be useful both to expand discussion of what these minyanim actually do, and to have a section providing more detail on arguments against them. In particular, (a) IZAK added a discussion of an Ezrat Nashim in a way that implies there isn't one. But there is. A partnership Minyan has a mechitza and women stay in the women's section at all times. Ensuring this while permitting women to lead certain prayers requires certain liturgical innovations, such as the 2 shtenders (reader's lecturns) and the michitza going right through the middle of the bima (as discussed in Shira Hadasha's website), which ensures that men and women do indeed stay on their respective sides during aliyot. Also, the women's section occupies 50% of the room, but IZAK cites no halachic source limiting it to a particular size. (b) IZAK raises the issue of Kol Isha. Many have this objection, but this actually isn't the most numerically prominent objection. There are many Modern Orthodox rabbis who do not hold the haredi view of Kol Isha, far more than accept Mendel Shapiro's idea that the "dignity of the congregation" can be waived. The more liberal view is that Kol Isha applies under more limited circumstances, and some limit it to the recitation of the Shema which was its original context. Presenting one view of this controversial issue as "normative" (IZAK's words) would be inconsistent with NPOV. --Shirahadasha 16:49, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Regarding edit claiming nonaceptance by "any Orthodox authorities". Mendel Shapiro, Daniel Sperber, etc. have the formal qualifications to be Orthodox authorities. Whether one accepts them as such or not is not for Wikipedia to say. --Shirahadasha 20:31, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Looking for articles and other sources summarizing objections to Partnership Minyanim. Editors are welcome to identify additional halakhic objections as long as they are properly sourced and articles or other sources are placed in the references and links sections. --Shirahadasha 01:54, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

• Hi Shira: To write a little article that challenges over 2,000 years of Jewish religious practice by citing one or two misquoted sources justifying what is basically a thrust by Feminism, as practiced by Jewish Feminists, to destroy Orthodox Judaism as it's known and practiced is somewhat disingenious on your part don't you think? There is nothing wrong with saying that this is Feminist Judaism akin to Reform Judaism and Conservative Judaism or Humanistic Judaism -- a new way that breaks with the past ways of Orthodoxy -- but to cling to "Orthodox Judaism" in the guise of claiming that this is merely another aspect of Modern Orthodox Judaism seems to be like someone who has already decided that their break with tradition is "right" and all that's needed is to find the "sources" for it ex post facto and if someone says the obvious, that hey, where in heavens name have you ever seen a Yiddishkeit like this in your life?, they are told to "cite sources" which sounds all too much like Christian missionaries who challenge one to "cite sources" that Jesus is not "the messiah" and similarly that a "partnership minyan" is not a minyan! On another point, if women's voices are heard in shull, even with a mechitza, there is still the factor of kol ishah. See Tzeniut#Female singing voice. Your statement about Shapiro and Sperber: "Whether one accepts them as such or not is not for Wikipedia to say" is simply silly because "Wikipedia" is not giving any views of its own. What is happening is that editors familiar with the world of Orthdoxy are writing down, stating, describing and explaining the facts that neither Shapiro nor Sperber are in any way, shape, size or form any kind of known and trusted "authorities" in Jewish law. They may know a lot about the subject and they may be rabbis and whatever other titles they may hold, but no-one in the Orthdox world knows them to be or regards them as persons qualified or relied upon to make make momentous decisions for the entire Jewish people (which is essentialy what this article is advocating for) -- a Feminist revolution that will end no-one knows where -- probably no different to other such well-meaning attempts to alter traditional Judaism as was tried by the Sadducees, the Sabbatians, and the Reform movement, all of which eventually revealed their historical failures to "save" the self-same Judaism they sought to "help" with their innovations. IZAK 07:55, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Some points

While I'm not sure I agree with IZAK's forceful tone above and comparisons with the Tzedukim and Baytusim, I agree that Shirahadasha is editing to promote the POV that such a minyan is indeed halakhically valid. The two "rabbinic authorities" take controversial positions while having, shall we say, limited acceptance in the general rabbinate. IZAK is correct in pointing out that being a great lamdan does not a posek make.

Obviously there are big problems. If women read keriat ha-Torah, the trop is zemer and there is an immediate problem of kol isha. Most poskim hold by the Rosh and Shulkhan Arukh that kol isha is assur at all times, not just during keriat Shema. Suddenly deciding that you're going to pick Hai Gaon's shitta is highly innovative, contrary to precedent and minhag, and probably divisive.

Most Haredim (and indeed many Modern Orthodox) are somewhat weary of innovation for the sake of accomodating political correctness. The Chatam Sofer said "hadash assur min ha-Torah" (a play on words) - innovation is in contradiction with the Torah. If people need to radically modernise halakha to promote adherence, how much is halakha worth? Can we not also change some kashrut laws to some obscure Rishon whose opinion is not codified?

Obviously Shira Hadasha is a fairly small community, and no prominent spokespeople have yet denounced its aims. That does not mean that we in Wikipedia cannot say "these views are not shared by the majority of the poskim" - which is easily verifiable. Because by default today's halakhic authorities will not approve of the Shapiro/Sperber innovations. JFW | T@lk 11:38, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

It's important to keep in mind that the article describes a phenonemon, not a viewpoint or opinon. The phenomenon exists and can be described independently of ones opinons about e.g. its halakhic propriety. The WP requirement here is that the main section of the article be a simple description of the phenomenon based solely on objective fact -- what the phenomenon is experientially and how its proponents describe it -- without regard to any opinion of its validity, favorable or unfavorable. Opinions as to matters of validity need to go into the objections section. My intent is for the objections sections to fairly present the halakhic problems involved. Statements such as "there is no known source in Jewish law for such a practice" are definitely statements of opinion and, moreover, are unsourced opinions. Sourced opinions only, please. --Shirahadasha 05:43, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I've attempted to summarize what I understand to be the gist of JFW's principle objection, a "simultaneous positions" issue: any one decision can be lenient or go in the "right" direction, but when a large number do so simultaneously it casts doubt on the integrity of the process. Can someone please source this objection? Has someone published this specific objection? My interest is to describe and source objections published by figures in the Orthodox world, not simply personal objections of WP editors individually. --Shirahadasha 06:29, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

• Shira: Wikipedia editors are being 100% accurate when they convey the fact that Orthodoxy has never condoned the kind of things that the Feminist minyan aspires to accomplish, what "sources" does that need? It's a fact, as much as that English is the spoken and written language of almost all of America's Jews -- would that need a "source" too since, perhaps, Russian and Israeli Jews may not know it and thus doubt it? The sources you ask for do exist and more will be presented. But, in the meantime, do you mean to say that 99.99% of Orthodox synagogues are not in "sync" with the "sources" dredged up by the new-fangled "Orthodox Feminists"? You mean that for two thousand years, since the destruction of the Temple, the manner of worship has been incorrect because now the Jewish Feminists have learned a new trick of asking for sources? It is clearly abusing Jewish Torah and rabbinical "texts" here by presenting them as merely a sort of relativistic "grand debate" when all one needs to do is take a survey of the halachah lema'aseh (practical application/s of Jewish law) of all the Orthodox shulls and see what has been done for 2,000 years. Why court harsh responses?: Such as: "kol b'isha erva -- A woman's voice is lewd/distracting" (Berachot 24a) and the Jewish sages expound that Hakol she bisha erva -- that EVERYTHING (in Hebrew hakol -- sounds the same as kol and not just her "voice" -- kol) about a woman is "lewdness" (meaning having a highly sexual quality as far as a male is concerned) and thus a woman should neither sing nor appear anywhere in an Orthodox synagogue because it's a pathway to connecting with her sexuality, which is not an "agenda" for a synagogue, needless to say. While these matters have been obvious to (almost) everyone in Orthodoxy for hundreds of years (the Reform movement long ago broke away and created it's own hip version of Judaism in the same manner, citing "sources"), now come along the Jewish ("Orthodox") Feminists and tell it is not so, that there are "sources" that say that ladies should sing and prance around, even lead the congregation, in Orthodox synagogues and that it's ok to call it "Orthodox". Yeah right! Is there really a need to enter into such an ugly debate and open up some very strong words that the sages use in this area? What would be gained by it? What the Jewish Feminist scholars are doing is basically being megalah panim beTorah shelo Kehalachah, not unlike the rationales given by other earlier renegade movements that broke with Orthodoxy. Why do they want to cling to the word "Orthodox"? IZAK 08:52, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

The request for sources for objections is based solely on WP policies. WP requires article content to come from external sources rather than unsourced personal knowledge or opinion. This request shouldn't be construed as part of or affecting any sort of debate or discussion of the underlying issues. My intention is solely to ensure that views are properly sourced. --Shirahadasha 13:38, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

As an FYI, I don't think the argument against certain of your positions is as weak as you may think. New Jewish customs have come into existence continually; Chasidic Judaism introduced quite a few. The streimal is only about 200 years old. Nor is a narrow view of kol isha such an innovation. As the Ben Cherney article points out, German Jewry had a long-established custom of a narrow view of kol isha regarding e.g. zemirot, which gained wide acceptance in the Modern community. And nobody is suggesting that traditional practice is wrong. For example, the Shapiro article, which suggests that a congregation may waive its dignity, takes great pains to clarify that it is in no way required to do so. It might be useful to read the specific arguments and respond to them in a more specific and measured fashion. My point is not to change your opinion; you may well continue to regard the views involved as minority and dubious. --Shirahadasha 13:38, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Are you seriously comparing Hasidic Judaism (a movement that sought to revert to a more stringent form of observance) to a Feminist minyan which has more in common with the thrusts of Reform Judaism in its desire to be more liberal? Is a "shtreimel" anything like a lady "cantilating" in shull? If one thinks so, that would indeed be poor thinking and an example of failed logic and clearly a gross distortion of Jewish history (more precisely, the history of Orthodox Judaism). Sure, what German Jewry did around its Shabbat-meal tables in the privacy of the homes of its good Jews was fine, it was not based on modern Feminism (which is the touted axiomatic banner of the new Feminist minyanim), but please note, that what the German Jews did was done only in the privacy of individual homes (and who knows what happened in all the homes?). One cannot axtrapolate from what is done in private Jewish homes to make it into the basis of a "policy" (read: "a new "halakha") to transform any known synagogue services (again, this is poor logic and falls into the mistake of equating "apples with oranges"), which would require the involvement and intervention of Halakhic minds and accepted authorities far, far greater than the point-of-fact very minor individuals you cite, and there are certainly none of this caliber to be relied upon today (even among Haredim), a point which you conveniently overlook. The arguments are a waste of time as they are based on erroneous understandings of Jewish law and the Torah world in its entirety and display a poor application of simple logic. IZAK 05:53, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Regarding your view that the Jewish sages expound that Hakol she bisha erva -- that EVERYTHING (in Hebrew hakol -- sounds the same as kol and not just her "voice" -- kol) about a woman is "lewdness" (meaning having a highly sexual quality as far as a male is concerned) and thus a woman should neither sing nor appear anywhere in an Orthodox synagogue because it's a pathway to connecting with her sexuality, which is not an "agenda" for a synagogue, needless to say. -- I think it safe to say that I regard this as an extreme view, since it seems to suggest that a woman shouldn't be in a synagogue at all, even with a mechitza. And I would certainly regard this view as a hashkafic, not a halakhic, view, and far from universal. Are there any Jewish communities in the world today where woman remain silent and only rarely leave the home? And how in the world do you explain e.g. female prophetesses, female nazirites, women's obligation to appear in Jerusalem for the korban pesach, the korbanot for childbirth, etc.?

Hi, you have not signed your comments with the four tildes ~~~~ so it's hard to know who is repsonding. Note, it is not "my view" that I expressed, but the point is that Torah Judaism, today known as Orthodox Judaism, has never been as liberal as you mention. No-one suggests that women shouldn't be in an Orthodox synagogue, they may choose to do so if they so desire, but there has never been any attempt to organize services around or for them. Jewish women are fully allowed to be in the Ezrat nashim ("ladies section") preferably built on an upper floor as a gallery obscured or covered from the men's side, which is literally their domain as it was in the Jewish Temples (upon which a synagogue is modeled) and no-one is saying that women do not have other important leadership roles. Obviously there is a time and place for everything -- but not at the expense of the age old adhered-to principle of kol kevudah bat melech penimah ("the entire glory of the king's daughter is internal/within" -- i.e. "behind closed doors"). Another answer is that because Jewish women are patur ("exempt") from mitzvos aseh she'hazman grama ("time-bound commandments") -- except those that carry a punishment of karet ("heavenly excision/excommunication") -- which is not the case with both kriat sh'ma ("reciting the Shma Yisrael") and tefila, particularly tefila betzibur ("praying with the congregation"), which are purely only encumbent on Jewish men since women are not required to pray three times a day on weekdays nor to pray the shemonei esreis of Shabbat (unless they voluntarily wish do so, an option not given to men). Thus since Jewish women are not obligated to have to recite the detailed shemoneh esreis, it would thus be correct to say that there is no real need, and certainly no commandment for women to attend synagogue on a religious (i.e. regular) basis if at all, so this entire project to have women as part of a "minyan" is not just moot but also probably a huge waste of time (brocha levatalah) and perhaps even a chilul Hashem ("desecration of God's name") if pushed in a manner closer to a "Feminist jihad" than to any known tradition of synagogue service in the long history of Orthodox Judaism. IZAK 05:30, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Wow, a 182-word sentence. Well done. :-D SlimVirgin ^(talk) 05:40, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Sure Slim: No problem! IZAK 06:01, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Let's begin with the idea that women requesting to participate in non-obligatory public worship is some sort of new phenomenon lacking any precedent. Here's a counterexample.

"It was asked: "Speak to the children of Israel and he shall lay" [his hand on the offering Lev.1:2-4] -- the sons of Israel lay their hands, but the daughters do not? R. Jose and R. Simeon say: The daughters of Israel may lay their hands, although they are not required to. R. Jose said: Abba Eliezar told me the following: Once we had a calf to be offered as a shelamim sacrifice and we brought it to the women's court and women laid their hands on it. Not because laying of hands applies to women, but to allow the women to feel pleased." (Talmud Hagigah 16b)

As the example illustrates, women have been desiring to participate in non-obligatory public worship since at least the days of the Beit HaMikdash. The response suggests that the Rabbis, while not radical feminists, also didn't regard these sorts of requests as being either a complete waste of time or a chillel Hashem. It is perhaps not so unorthodox to suggest considering the general attitude with which the Rabbis responded to women's requests in the days of real bulls, as having perhaps some relevance to our attitude, if not any specific ruling, in how we think about women's requests to participate in matters of "the offering of our lips" that substitutes for them (Hosea 14:3). --Shirahadasha 06:25, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

• Shira: So let me ask you, are you now taking it upon yourself, with the aid of the Jewish Feminist Alliance and the two unknown rabbis they cited to undo what no-one else in 2,000 years seems to think needs "fixing" in Orthodox synagogues? Now back to your citation/s from the Talmud: "R. Jose and R. Simeon say: The daughters of Israel may lay their hands, although they are not required to" and "Not because laying of hands applies to women, but to allow the women to feel pleased." Can't you read the very words you cite? that they "may" lay their hands but that "they are not required to" and that it's "Not" because it applied to them, but only to make them "feel pleased" -- all words that prove that there is absolutely NO obligation for them to be involved with the shelamim sacrifices but that these are only activities of a PURELY VOLUNTARY nature, meant more to appease and assuage female emotions than anything else. How could this be a "proof" for having new Halakhic "guidelines" yet, in a synagogue, when all it talks about is what some women "may" do, in fact "not required" to do, but just to to make them "feel pleased"? (It would be a failure of logic and a gross misunderstanding of what the Talmudic rabbis meant, if one imagines that they are giving a "green light" to Feminist minyans two thousand years hence!) The example from the Talmud reveals the rabbis' grasp of female psychology and is certainly no basis for any new "rulings" to change the order of the day as it has stood for 2,000 years, in any Orthodox synagogue. IZAK 06:46, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

But, nonetheless, they were neither wasting their time, nor performing a chilul hashem, nor fundamentally tampering with anything. The question here is not one of specific rulings, it is one of general attitude. That's all the example is about. The halakhic issues of course depend on their individual merits. --Shirahadasha 06:56, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Shira: To say "halakhic issues of course depend on their individual merits" is to reveal a far too casual and wishy-washy notion of what Halacha truly is. The Feminist minyans are proposing a serious change, and hence break, with the way Halakha has heretofore been applied and practiced. It does little good to conjure up words from the Talmud to bolster shaky arguments. Are the proponents of Feminist minyans performing a kiddush Hashem ("sanctification of God's name") then when they seek to go against their own Orthodox fathers' and mothers' practices? Surely not! Where is the lo tasur ("you shall not move") from the ways of the sages, here? On what basis are you equating Jewish women in the Jewish Temples of 2,000 years ago with modern 20th century Feminists? Yet again, you commit an error of false comparison and poor logic. Are the heirs to the traditions of the Jewish Temple, namely the majority of noted and respected Talmudic sages saying what you imply and quote here? That is the crux of the matter. You are assuming (falsely) that the situation today parallels what may have been true in the times of the Temples, an assertion that is most problematic. IZAK 07:13, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

This has been an interesting conversation. It's clear we're not going to convince each other. Suffice it to say that there have been many innovations in Judaism that have endured and shaped what it is today. The Rambam's fusion of Jewish practice and Aristotelian philosophy, the writing and codification of the Oral Law, and the development of the Chassidic movement are but a few of the bigger of many examples. Most of the current prayer service, from the Kabbalat Shabbat to the Pesukei DeZimarah, was unheard of in the days of the Talmud. All of these developments and more were, at one time, sharply criticized. Yet Judaism survived, and perhaps was enhanced by, them all. You give no reason to distinguish these innovations from others. Many of their inventors were obscure at the time they developed their innovations, and became famous (and Gedolai Hador) only later, after people began accepting what they had initially dismissed. If halakha prohibits new customs entirely rather than merely setting limits on them, none these things, which we take for granted today, could have happened. --Shirahadasha 02:05, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Shira: Sure there have been many "innovations in Judaism" as you say, but perhaps, from a critical perspective, maybe a "partnership minyan" follows in the footsteps of, and is fated to be regarded as, Reform Judaism or, alas, Christianity? It is all very well for you to bounce around the names of the Rambam or of the Chasidic movement -- but you ignore that the Rambam and the Chasidim sought to bring about a greater adherence to tradition and did not seek to break it down nor to break away from it to the degree that a "pratnesrhip minyan" does, and that the classical writings of the Rambam and of the Chasidic masters are regarded with respect and awe and applied by the same authorities and communities that view modern-day capitulations to Feminism and hence to the modern sexual revolution (with associated other ends such as acceptance of gay marriages and gay rabbis, as well as lower standards for conversion and acceptance of interfaith couples and their children -- in effect the agenda of Reform). To think that Rabbis Shapiro and Sperber will one day become "gedolei hador" is too weird beyond belief and only shows that such views are out of touch with what is happening in the mainstream world of Torah scholarship today. With all the comparisons you cite, the very "innovations" in the times of the Talmud had absolutely nothing to do with allowing women a greater role in synagogue services, so again, you are making connections between subjects and ideas that are totally unrelated, a failing both of perspective and of logic. IZAK 07:09, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

All the criticism in the objections section will have to be sourced to reliable published sources or deleted as original research. Instead of saying "objectors," particular critics have to be named and cited, and then their arguments should either be quoted or paraphrased very closely, giving full citations. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 14:25, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't think you understand the editors objections. The objections to feminism are well known in the orthodox world. In fact they are so well know known it is hard to find sources that say explicitly that they are objectionable. The haredi community in particular has little interaction with these movements and has no need to write a strong rebuke of them as their objects are already well known. Responsa that deal tangentially with these issues already assume that the reader knows the problem with these practices. However Rabbi Shlomo Aviner has written a little on the subject in Hebrew. Jon513 18:10, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Regardless of how well known it may be to some people, we're writing this article for readers who may not know it well, or even at all, and we need sources to conform to WP:NOR and WP:V. If these opinions are well known, someone reliable will have published them, and there are anyway positions stated in that section that have nothing to do with feminism. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 18:17, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

now that i think about it the article by rabbi Aviner is a very good summary of ideas in the orthodox community. Jon513 18:19, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Here's an example. How about Feldheim's classic general critique of religious feminism "Orthodox Feminism and Feminist Orthodoxy" (Jewish Action, 1999) [1] (pdf) (Jewish Action, 1999). The article doesn't address all the Partnership minyan-specific issues, but provides some general objections to e.g. women's interest in traditional male, issues of tzniut, etc. You are welcome to quote or paraphrase. --Shirahadasha 19:48, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sourcing Jewish law is neither easy nor simple and is very tricky

Slim: Wikipedia is not the place to publish new unheard of "responsa" that tout Modern Orthodox Feminism POV articles about positions that that fly in the face of any known Orthodox Jewish practices that no-one has heard of before -- to do so would be the equivalant of ORIGINAL RESEARCH, which unfortunately this article itself, and not its objections, is guilty of! A little searching on Google will unearth many quotes of the sources to support the objections in any case. However, one should be aware that the langauge of the Talmud, the Shulkhan Arukh ("Code of Jewish Law"), Rabbinical literature and Responsa in general are very difficult to read, study and comperhend in their original Hebrew (or Aramaic, as the case may be) and that is why there are specialists, known as poskim ("decisors of Jewish law") who are relied upon to have the final say in matters of Jewish law, and no Wikipedia article should fly in the face of this reality as far as Orthdox Judaism is concerned, unless it wants to be guilty of "Original Research". What one will have here is basically references in articles available on the Internet that will cite many sources. None of us here is a "rabbinic authority" but as editors we are capable on reporing, describing and explaining for an encycplodia audience the reality of the situation and not a concocted version that only a very minor liberal minority maybe practices within Orthodox Judaism. IZAK 06:24, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

IZAK, Wikipedia is not the place for unsourced edits or original research. The article states that there is a movement to introduce partnership minyanim. It explains what the movement is and what a partnership minyan is, and why it's needed in the view of some people. No policy issues so far, because it's either all sourced or easy to source (and if you need a source for a particular point, please ask for one.) However, there is then a criticism section, which gives the opinions of unnamed sources. Those sources must be named, their opinions must have been published, and those publications must be cited, or else the section will be deleted. See WP:V. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 02:12, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Agree unsourced statements should be removed and original research violates WP policy. If criticism is as strong and universal as suggested, doubtless there will be no problem finding additional sources for any additional objections. --Shirahadasha 03:17, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

• Slim: Very basic and clear objections to the new innovations are revealed in the article from The Forward -- a clear "source". As Jon has stated above, the "partnership minyan" experiment is so alien to Haredi and Hasidic Judaism that those movements themselves see no need to elaborate on a trend that is so counter to Orthodox Judaism as practiced over hundreds of years. The sources exist and I have mentioned many of them by heading in this discussion, as any classical student of rabbinics will recognize, but at this juncture a quote of rebuttal from a newspaper that mentions the views of Orthodox rabbis involved with this issue will do as befits such a silly effort. IZAK 06:46, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Not sure which part of which effort you're calling silly, but thanks for finding the source. I'm sorry for inserting a couple of invisible questions, but because you called it a "summary," I didn't realize it was a quote. The article's looking quite a bit better now. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 10:34, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Slim: From the Haredi and Hasidic POV the new-fangled "partnership minyan" is worse than silly (it may be an outright blasphemy...) At any rate, no need to be sorry about anything, you are ever the first rate editor! The quotes from The Forward article are not "the source" in the absolute sense but it does "sum up" some of the objections and it does suffice for Wikipedia purposes. The underlying issues run far deeper than any newspaper article, which is why Shira has attempted to quote the many older rabbinic sources, but no-one but the "ultra-Modern Orthodox" buy into, and even many of them have serious doubts about it because the Jewish Orthodox Feminsist Alliance is basically viewed as a very radical organization outside the mainstream of Orthdodoxy, even Modern Orthodoxy. It's a debate that is taking place right now as we tap-tap on our keyboards... Be well. IZAK 06:11, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Title

Does anyone mind if I move the page to Partnership minyan? Or should both words be capitalized? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 14:28, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

No strong views one way or the other --Shirahadasha 15:19, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

You are correct it should be moved. Wikipedia:Naming_conventions#Lowercase_second_and_subsequent_words Jon513 17:43, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Done. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 17:57, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Liberal Objections

Given our long discussion on (small-c) conservative objections, the same applies to liberal objections. Source please. Original research violates WP policy. As before, if objections are as general as claimed, reliable sources shouldn't be difficult to find.--Shirahadasha 00:23, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

• Shira: Editors come along at different times and do not read every last word on a talk page, nor are they required to, so you cannot assume that the latest editor/s to the article have read through our laborious discussions in the talk page/s. You must show more caution, you cannot delete passages in articles that you dislike and claim that they are both "original research" and that they require "sources". Original research and the need for sources is not the same thing. Many statements can be acknowldged as true, such as that the non-Orthodox reject any references to gender-based roles since they regard themselves as "egalitarians", without requiring "sources". Is there a need to "prove" that Reform, Conservative and Reconstructionist policies make men and women equal for everything in their synagogues? I doubt it, it's an obvious widely known and practiced fact and reality. Do we require "sources" that it is dark at night? It is a self-evident fact. I have therefore reverted that edit and clarified its wording so that it reads more clearly (for now... until the next editor can improve it... this is, after all, Wikipedia... anyone can edit...) IZAK 18:56, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

OK, you're right, I was definitely too hasty. I've found a source for liberal objections and am editing the section to include a quote from it. We'll chalk this one up to experience. ----

• Fair enough, but it looks like you typed "----" at the end of your last response instead of "~~~~", best wishes, IZAK 18:15, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Orthodox objections, recent article from Beth Din head

Recent article by Rabbi Moshe Kurtstag, Dayan and the Av Beit Din of the Orthodox community of South Africa. How can it be used in this article? IZAK 18:36, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Published in JEWISH TRADITION, the official publication of the UNION OF ORTHODOX SYNAGOGUES OF SOUTH AFRICA (UOS) http://www.uos.co.za/ JEWISH TRADITION (PESACH 5766 – 2006), p. 39. 2006 Volume 52 Number 1. EDITOR: Marilyn Segal tradition@uos.co.za PO Box 46559, Orange Grove, 2119, Johannesburg, South Africa.

A Partnership Minyan requires 10 men, there is no question of women comprising the halakhic minyan. Your article is actually surprisingly liberal in some respects, since it states thst "Of course women are free to appoint a chazanta, a female chazzan, for themselves and have their all-women services, but this won’t constitute a minyan." The 2nd Frimer article, WOMEN'S PRAYER SERVICES - THEORY AND PRACTICE1 Tradition, 32:2, pp. 5-118 (Winter 1998) contains a fairly comprehensive set of arguments and sources for and against women's prayer groups, include "Stringent School" arguments that women aren't free to do this ("The next school of thought on women's prayer groups maintains that the entire institution is 'forbidden by law.'").--Shirahadasha 03:10, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

• Yes, I agree by the way, that Rabbi Kurtstag is definitely making a concession for women to have the right to create their own Tefillah groups, as they are known. But that makes what he has to say about attemtps to create and justify a "partnership minyan" even more serious. IZAK 13:49, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I also wanted to ask one teaser question regarding your source's implied claim that women never counted in the minyan in the Beit Hamikdash. There's an interesting discussion in Pesachim 79b as follows:

THOSE WHO ARE TAHOR MAKE THE FIRST [pesach offering] BUT THOSE WHO ARE TAMEI MAKE NEITHER THE FIRST NOR THE SECOND -- how will they explain it [the Breitah, i.e. how can this case arise]? Rav will explain it. [It refers to] a case where the male Jews were half tahor and half tamei, but women increased the tahor people [and turned them into the majority]. And [the Tannah of this Bereitah] holds that [the participation of] women [in the offering ] on the first [pesach] is obligatory, whereas [their participation] on the second [Pesach] is optional. On the first Pesach [those who are tamei] do not make [the offering] because they are a minority [of the total populace, which includes women] and a minority does not make pthe offering in tumah] on the first [Pesach]. And on the second [pesach] [those who are tamei] do not make [the offering, because since the participation of women on the second pesach is merely optional you must] subtract the women from the count [of the populace] with the result that [the counted ones] are half tahor and half tamei. And [the rule is that] half [of the populace] does not make [the offering] on the second [Pesach]. (Pesachim 79b, Schottenstein Edition)

What do you make of that? If women aren't counted in Pesach offerings for which they are obligated, why can their numbers determine the majority status so that whether they are counted or not tips the scales? --Shirahadasha 03:11, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

• Hi: Firstly, your quote is talking about general population count and not about the specifics of a "minyan" as such. I do not see the word "minyan" there. Similarly, we learn about the POSITION of women (that they were confined to the ezrat nashim), in the sense of LOCATION, from the Temple -- but what CONSTITUTES a minyan is NOT learned from that source, so you commit a serious classical error of false reasoning by confusing the apples and oranges. You are also missing an important underlying point here, in that you are assuming, and taking it upon yourself, to adduce and adjudicate from these quotes you cite in the Gemara to make it appear as if they are a basis for some kind of new-fangled "rulings" or p'sak din that allow for something that the vast majority (99.99%, and then some) of Gemara scholars never allowed or said and even at the present time do not say nor allow (and please don't say that "shtreimels" are also innovations, as if "shtreimels = ladies countinmg in an Orthodox minyan). Be well, IZAK 13:41, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

IZAK, You're reading far too much into what I said and drawing an inference I never made. My point was to provide a single counterexample, a single case where women counted in the Beit HaMikdash for a single purpose, involving a single korban. No modern p'sak of any kind is involved here. Counting for other purposes, and certainly counting in a contemporary synagogue minyan, are wholly different matters. I never drew any inference from one to the other. It sems to me you're also trying to read in an inference that a Partnership minyan counts women in the minyan of 10. It doesn't do this. Your source, which is focused on objections to women counting in a minyan, is clearly objecting to Conservative/Reform practices that simply aren't relevant here. Your source may well object to a partnership minyan on other grounds (e.g. women leading services), but it seems to me that on the minyan issue you're trying to create an impression that simply isn't accurate. Shabbat Shalom --Shirahadasha 22:40, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Shochetman Article

Would it be possible to provide a citation for the article in standard form including article title, journal volume number, etc., including mentioning the language if the article isn't in English.

Also, would it be possible to provide a brief mention of the main argument, or a brief quote? Simple mention of the article's existence would better belong in "Further Reading" than the main body. --Shirahadasha 16:35, 7 July 2006 (UTC)