Talk:Pantheism/Archive 2

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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents 1 Create an account 2 Carl Sagan? 3 Before this all began 4 paul 5 Sanatana Dharma

Create an account

not having an account leads people to assume you are a vandal, particularly when you make questionable edits."

Let them "assume" what they will, I am NOT a "vandal" and I have not made any "questionable edits" but only edits for "greater factual accuracy and objectivity". If that is not what your Wikipedia Encyclopedia is really all about then so be it.

"I agree that you should be reverted less, but I myself will continue to revert you so long as you a) don't have an account and b) you make edits which strongly appear to reduce the quality of the article."

The "quality" of any article should be based upon both "factual accuracy" and "objectivity" which is exactly what my edits have always striven to do. By this standard, the "quality" of these articles by only your own "reverts" and by those of such biased and subjective "others" has only compromised those very same standards.

"Whats best for everyone is a sound, accurate article."

The "quality" of any article should be based upon both "factual accuracy" and "objectivity" which is exactly what my edits have always striven to do.

"And if you don't like the peirce page, create an account and get to work on it! cheers, Jack 01:10, 13 Jan 2004 (UTC)"

I don't like the "Pierce" page only because it is so loaded with just so many "factual inaccuracies" and with so many "deliberate distortions" by only those that so obviously just can't be at all either be NEUTRAL nor OBJECTIVE, and that very fact is only making the "Wikipedia Encyclopedia" as being a factual and a accurate and a objective source of information, only a joke.

I do wish you luck, Jack, and I will also continue to "revert" any and all such "deliberate distortions" and any and all such shameless "lies" that are continued and that are falsely being "locked-in", there, by the Usual Suspects.

Best regards,

Needle

http://www.cosmotheism.net

Carl Sagan?

Are you "reverters" disputing the fact that Carl Sagan was a pantheist or cosmotheist? By his own words I can demonstrate and prove that he most certainly was and along with his wife Ann Druyan.

Cites then, please. Lots of good ones, that aren't on any website that could conceivably be called pantheist or Cosmotheist. Wikipedia is not a recruitment platform. - David Gerard 23:42, Feb 29, 2004 (UTC)

Carl Sagan was a pantheist, I can vouch for that. Paul does not need "lots" of citations, nor is it a problem when he cites religious sources. Any source is better than no source. If you have a counter citation, lets see it. Otherwise, I second his claim. Sam Spade 23:54, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I don't see how Sagan was anything but an atheist, or an agnostic at best. I would really like to see some cites for his supposed pantheism or cosmotheism. Adam Bishop 23:56, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)

He was a Naturalistic Pantheism, or as I call them "atheistic pantheist". [1] [2] [3] Sam Spade 00:03, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Is it not possible that in the quote from Pale Blue Dot he is actually saying that it is a bad thing that "such a religion will emerge"? Just before that he is talking about religions misinterpreting science...I'm not sure he means that a religion like that would be any better. Adam Bishop 00:16, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)

If you can find a source which agrees with your theory that he was not a pantheist, it would be fine to cite that, and provide the opposing POV. Otherwise, it is simply a personal musing, or at best original research. Sam Spade 00:19, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Zing. I can give you sources where he says he's an atheist, but no sources where he says he is a pantheist. You can give pantheist websites claiming him as one of their own, but did he ever say that himself? Or is it your own original research based on strange interpretations of his writings? Adam Bishop 00:22, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Him being an atheist is irrelevent. Pretty much all Naturalistic Pantheists are atheists. I'd be glad to review your citations, but it appears you havn't read mine :(. Try reading this again. It isn't from a Pantheist source. Anyways, this isn't about who "wins" this debate, or where are sources come from, but rather how we can make the best article. Respectfully, IMO you have alot of research to do if you want edit this article. Sam Spade 00:26, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)

You're making no damn sense here. - David Gerard 01:06, Mar 1, 2004 (UTC)

Quite sorry about that sir, could you please provide me with some specific request for information, so that I might better provide you with assistance? Sam Spade 01:11, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Let's try it in atomically small logical portions. For instance, please turn up a cite where Carl Sagan actually says "I am a Pantheist", "I believe in Pantheism" or otherwise actually subscribes himself to the belief - rather than you taking some words he said and claiming them as evidence of [insert belief of the week here]. - David Gerard 01:22, Mar 1, 2004 (UTC)

Thats pretty much irrelevent. Pantheism is not so much an organized faith as it is an term used to describe someones beliefs. There is a group of organized "pantheists", but they have beliefs which are by no means agreed to by all of those who can appropriately be called pantheists. I reccomend reviewing Naturalistic Pantheism, as well as other encyclopedia/dictionary articles on the subject. Sam Spade 01:38, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I don't see how it's not relevant - if you claim "X is a [insert religious orientation]!" but can't turn up any sort of quote along the lines of "I am a [insert religious orientation]", then of course claiming they are is going to be highly questionable.

By the way, I note that the quote from Pale Blue Dot most notably does not say that Sagan subscribes to the religious belief he describes there. Does the context of that quote say he does? If so, the quoted portion should include that bit. If not, it should be deleted. - David Gerard 23:45, Mar 1, 2004 (UTC)

Please read up on the subject. While there is an unbelievably small organized pantheist movement (one I don't even think of as pantheist, but that’s another topic) the normal usage of the term is as a description of ones worldview, or interpretation of the terms "God" and "reality" or "existence", and thus is not used in the same way that "catholic" or whatnot is used. For example, most references will point out that Hassidim and Brahman Hindu’s are pantheistic. Do they call themselves pantheists? Probably not. They prob. don't even know the term. Knowledge of the adjective, and whether or not it applies to you are completely different subjects. Please, I implore you, read up on Pantheism, check other references (encyclopedia.com, or the Britannica are good places, for example). Thanks, Sam Spade 00:59, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I've tweaked your disclaimer - I think it looks better just as part of the paragraph. Is that OK as it stands, though? Hopefully it puts across your point above - David Gerard 20:56, Mar 2, 2004 (UTC)

Before this all began

Before Sam Spade began editing this article it was very different: [4]. I'm suggesting that someone take a stab at a complete rewrite. The more I look at the history the more it looks like Sam Spade is defending things that he originally added to the article, have been removed by others, and then have been replaced by Paul Vogel. This is not in any way mean to imply that there has been any deception on Sam Spade's part -- just that he's not "on the outside looking in" on Paul Vogel's edits. BCorr ¤ Брайен 01:20, Mar 1, 2004 (UTC)

I find your insinuations to be rude, and will have you know that I am far from the only person involved in this article, and that your call for a "rewrite" is offensive in the extreme. Every article changes over time. If you have something productive to add rather than insults and bizarre conspiracy theories, please do so. Otherwise I will frankly ask you to go and do some research. Try reviewing Naturalistic Pantheism if your wondering where the old article went to. Sam Spade 01:38, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Dear Jack, I'm very sorry if you are offended, for I had no intention of being offensive. I do stand my statements, however. I believe that you may not have understood all that I wrote or that you did not try all of the links in the above edit. I certainly did not mean to offend, but I can understand why you might feel I was making insinuations, as I was explicit in my suggestion that I was making no insinuations whatsoever. As you point out, you are by no means the only author or editor of this article, as the link above will clearlyu show to all. I simply mark that as the point at which most of the now controverial material began to appear in the article.

Please accept my apologies, and understand that when I suggest a rewrite it is the my best suggestion for a way forward that all who have been involved in the article can accept and participate in fully. I sincerely hope that if others respond to what I write or when others edit the article you will not take umbrage against them due to my most heartfelt opinions about the need to rewrite the article.

With apologies and thanks, BCorr ¤ Брайен 01:55, Mar 1, 2004 (UTC)

Please place your complaints against me personally on my talk page, or other more appropriate locales. Thank you, Sam Spade 01:04, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

paul

why are you being silly? Sam Spade 19:37, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

"Being silly"? How?-PV

duplicate wikilinks to God and to All Sam Spade 03:36, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Oh? Sorry. Silly me. My bad! LOL! :D -PV

Sanatana Dharma

Is there some particular reason why you dislike the redirect? I much prefer it how it was, and in fact would like to see Hinduism redirect to a page titled Sanatana Dharma :) Sam Spade 18:26, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)