Talk:Pandeism (Godfrey Higgins)

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Contents 1 VfD results 2 Godfrey Higgin's earlier works 3 Natalia Kita 4 Assumption of bad faith and removal of {cleanup} tag 5 Cleaning 6 Clean up tag 7 Handout 8 New comment 9 The Yin and Yang (or male and female) in PanDeism 10 Separate article for Godfrey Higgins?

[edit] VfD results

For an April 2005 deletion debate over this page see Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Pandeism

[edit] Godfrey Higgin's earlier works

Does anyone have access to Higgins' earlier works, to determine when he first described pandeism? Also does anyone have acces to Kersey Graves' 1875 book The World's 16 Crucified Saviours, Madame Blavatsky's 1888, book, The Secret Doctrine, or V.S. Solovyoff's 1895 book, A Modern Priestess of Isis? All three relied heavily on the Anacalypsis for their writing, and may have carried forth Higgins' pandeism theory. ([1] [2]) --BD ^thimk 20:20, 2005 May 3 (UTC)

You can read Graves' The World's 16 Crucified Saviors here. Anacalypsis is expensive. Adraeus 10:50, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the link! Kersey cites the Anacalypsis copiously (here, here, thrice in this chapter, here, here, and here), but not pandeism (not surprising tho, as Kersey was primarily interested in digging up examples of mythological parallels to Christianity, and this would hardly be one). The Anacalypsis is expensive, but is available in some libraries. Emyth said he was going to the Harvard library to have a look. --BD ^thimk 14:16, 2005 May 4 (UTC)

[edit] Natalia Kita

Natalia Kita posted the following in a forum for the Philadelphia Universist Meetup Group:

I am an ordained minister through several free-thinking churches, including one I started with my "Metaphysical Christianity" practicing mother. I guess I would classify myself as a transcendental pandeist, and as of today, a universist.

I tracked Ms. Kita's email address down and wrote to her, explaining my understanding of the meaning of the term (the entire communication is posted here). Ms. Kita replied (in relevant part):

I will gladly write more when I have the time, but in short, my classification of my own beliefs as "transcendental pandeism" means that I believe most of what you outlined, except that I believe God not only is, always was, and always will be the universe, but that the Universe is contained within God, and God transcends that which we know as the Universe. I also believe that all living beings contain the knowledge/wisdom of God/the Universe within them, if only they open their minds to it. I view God not so much as a being, but as a force of pure spirit and energy, containing all the knowledge/wisdom there is, and sharing it with all.

I can't imagine from the above that she made up the term "pandeism", but rather cobbled together the phrase, "transcendental pandeism" (which sounds something more like panentheism). I visited the website that she remarked on in her letter to me, and found some materials there ([3]) that present striking similarities between professed beliefs and the "spiritual pandeism" materials that were inserted into the original pandeism article ( e.g. their website says that "Jesus Christ, Mohammed, Buddha, Krishna, and many other spiritual leaders and teachers may have been more tapped into this Divine Consciousness than the average seeker"). --BD ^thimk 23:21, 2005 May 8 (UTC)

[edit] Assumption of bad faith and removal of {cleanup} tag

An anonymous editor has removed the {{cleanup}} from the article, saying that the tag was being used as a general insult. As it is that user's only edit, and in light of the fact that I think the cleanup tag remains well-warranted, I have put it back. BD2412, if you know who did this, I recommend you paddle them and have them help you clean the article up rather than simply removing the cleanup tag and acting like the article is no longer a mess. Just because the VfD failed doesn't mean the article is a candidate for the wikipedia showroom. Tomer ^TALK 02:21, May 13, 2005 (UTC)

I have no idea who removed the tag, and would suggest that anyone intent on doing so should first log in - such opinions should be expressed openly. I agree that the article still needs much work, and have no dispute with the cleanup tag, as that may attract editors who have something to contribute. --BD ^thimk 03:18, 2005 May 13 (UTC)

By the way, I went home for Mother's day and, while searching through a stack of boxes containing old papers, notes, etc., finally managed to locate a handout from Professor Mendoza which discusses Pandeism. Full of interesting stuff - he says "The Pandeist God is the Salmon-God: when it spawns it dies" and that "the pandeists simply need to buy a razor - Occam's razor." He also criticizes the theory for being inconclusive, and confusing the metaphysical with the spiritual - which leads me to think that he's talking about someone else's theory (who would talk that way about their own). But I don't know how to refer to this handout as a "source" for the article - it's four pages of tightly packed text, titled "History of Ideas: Pantheism" (most of the handout is about pantheism, the last page discusses pandeism). --BD ^thimk 03:27, 2005 May 13 (UTC)

Scan it. Put it up for download. Adraeus 06:26, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

Oy. I'll just transcribe it - easier to quote from that way anyway. -- BD ^thimkact 16:26, 2005 May 14 (UTC)

Not that I don't think you're credible, but I'm certain there are others who would be more convinced by a scanned dated document than a transcription that could have possibly been created by you. Adraeus 17:39, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

I know - but the handout is neither dated nor signed - it just says "History of Ideas" on the top line, then "Pantheism" on the next, and then launches into the text. -- BD ^thimkact 21:17, 2005 May 14 (UTC)

[edit] Cleaning

I have deleted a large chunk of the last part of this article for it quoted a person who stated that pantheism means a transcendant god. This is the opposite of the truth and im not sure what this was getting at... it also for some reason quoted a Matrix website (yes, the movie)

I believe this whole page should be deleted and just referenced as another possible name for pantheism. User:Progressivepantheist

• It went throught Vfd and came out ok. The author BD, isn't going to be back until after the 30th. Falphin 15:08, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
  • One should, in general, discuss first, delete large chunks of articles later. It tends to make people quite pissy, and is at best undiplomatic. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 06:13, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
    • Hi, I'm back a day early. Regarding User:Progressivepantheist's concerns, I think the better practice would be to point out the error of the incorrect use of "pantheism". As they teach us in First Amendment law, the remedy for bad speech is good speech, not censorship. -- BD ^talk 19:17, 2005 May 29 (UTC)

[edit] Clean up tag

We should outline,what needs to be cleaned up and changed so that others can contribute. Falphin 18:21, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Handout

I'm done with the Bar exam, and have started my job. I can cobble together some time to transcribe the handout, and plan to have it done within a few weeks. Cheers! -- BD ^talk 04:46, August 8, 2005 (UTC)

OK, well it's not quite the same, but here I have posted the paper that I was required to write for Professor Ramon Mendoza's "History of Ideas" class, which largely echoed what he taught on the subject of pandeism. I have transcribed the professor's handout on the topic as well, but can not get in touch with him to get his authorization to use it. BD T 02:47, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] New comment

Hello? well, this has it backward!! The meaning of PanDeism should be discussed before the 1800 no longer in use!! I have followed PanDeism for fifteen years and never heard the 1800 before this year.. //// Pacific PanDeist —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Pacific PanDeist (talk • contribs).

[edit] The Yin and Yang (or male and female) in PanDeism

Consider for a moment the gender roles that best suit the parent philosophies of PanDeism. First you have Deism - this is absolutely a masculine concept. God is a father-figure, not a mother giving birth to the universe, but a mechanic, an architect, a craftsman, a clockmaker, a typical male role. And what does this father do after the universe has been made and set in motion, when the gears are wound? He abandons us. He disappears, and does not make himself available to us. We trust that he is still there, but can only confirm this through the exercise of cold reason; this is a God who is cold, emotionless, out of reach, like every stoic father who has presented only this face to a son, a tradition passed down from generations before. The God of Deism therefore possesses the attributes of the Yang.

Now you have PanTheism - a feminine concept if ever one was! God is the universe that envelops us, is all around us, wraps us in her warmth. God is ever present, sharing herself completely with us, giving us unconditional love because we are part of her, born from her womb with an umbilical cord that can never be severed. This is the ultimate mother, the ultimate feminine, possessing the attribute of the Yin.

Hence, PanDeism strikes the perfect balance of masculinity and femininity, of Yin and Yang (thus not surprisingly, PanDeistic ideologies are far more prevalent in Asia). Like the masculine Deist God, the PanDeist god is a mechanic, an architect, a clockmaker; but the PanDeist God does not abandon us when his act of creation is completed; rather, the PanDeist God assumes the other role, that of the PanTheist all enveloping mother, allowing us to exist through her very substance

So, as Deism and PanTheism combine to find the perfect balance in PanDeism, so must we strive to find this balance in ourselves and in our relationships, to both build and nurture, to be sufficiently distant yet always present when this presence is called for. We are each a microcosm of the potential balance of the universe, and each of us already carries with us the connection with the universe that enables us to emulate its temperment, should we desire to touch the God within ourselves. Realize, therefore, beloved friends, that touching God therefore means touching the characteristics within ourselves that reflect the opposite gender - men must find their feminine side, and women their masculine.

//// Pacific PanDeist 07:55, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Please note, referring to a figure as "the good gentlemen" or a "great professor" is charming, but not really encyclopedic in tone. Cheers! BD2412 T 16:47, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

You see BD, that's where I think you're wrong - an educated Englishperson IS a "gentlemen"... the professor IS great, so why can't we say it? Who is going to read this article? PanDeists!! They will want to know that a good gentlemen and a great professor recognized their philosophy in a way that is nearly describeable as prescient!! Perhaps these persons were not writing merely what they knew but were communicating their internal contact with the God that is us all!!

//// Pacific PanDeist * 03:21, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Yo Yo Ho-mee! "Pan" to tha' "Dee" to tha' "I" - "S" - "T"!

Wha...? //// Pacific PanDeist * 02:05, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Separate article for Godfrey Higgins?

The "Pandeism" (which is really a Pande-ism) described by Higgins/Newbrough et c. is so radically different from the "Pandeism" (Pan-Deism) of Mathews, Hartshorne, Peters, etc. that it should be a separate article!! Pray, no one objects? //// Pacific PanDeist * 01:17, 14 September 2006 (UTC)