Talk:Pancasila Indonesia

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[edit] Source

I've added info on JI as an anti-pancasila group & info on 1948 civil war that claimed 27000 lives based on the commentary in a newspaper. --*drew 04:59, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] References

I'm writing a paper on Pancasila as Ideology, role in Nation will post set of references once done. Or a new article altogether--Trtskh 05:57, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Pancasila terminlogy

Why Soekarno adapt the terminology Pancasila? Since Pancasila is also the five pillars of Buddhism. As far as I know, Pancasila of Buddhism isn't very common among Indonesian during pre-Independence era and sanskrit is not a common language among Indonesian. 141.213.240.242 06:36, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Sanskrit isn't spoken by many Indonesians, but philosophy and culture from the Indian subcontinent have been exported to Indonesia for thousands of years. Hinduism and Buddhism have played a major role in the developemnt of Indonesia culture, so Sukarno was probably wise to appeal to something from the comon heritage that many Indonesians shared when trying to create unity. Gatherton 15:53, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Standardizing Spelling

In the several articles that Wikipedia has about Indonesia and its history the two differnt spelling of Suharto and Soehatro and Sukarno and Soekarno are used somewhat interchangeably. I suggest picking one and sticking with it throughout the series of articels on Indonesia. Let's discuss whether uniformity is necessary, if so which one do we pick, and if we pick one there sohould be some kind of note somwhere in each article that alerts the reader to the existence of the alternate spelling. Comments? Gatherton 15:58, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

I vote for using the common denomination in English: Suharto and Sukarno. --Asterion talk to me 22:22, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree. 'Suharto' and 'Sukarno' are the spellings used by both 'The Jakarta Post' and the English language edition of 'Tempo' magazine - the two main English language news publications in Indonesia Davidelit 08:00, 11 June 2006 (UTC)


Disagree. 'Su' is not just about spelling, but also represents the year they was born. If you live in Indonesia, 'Suharto' and 'Soeharto' can be a different person. For example, one of the current Indonesian Movie Director, Rudy Soedjarwo. You can't change the name into Rudy Sujarwo. Kunderemp 16:56, 16 August 2006 (UTC) edited again by Kunderemp 17:58, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Is Indonesian Hindu polytheism?

I'm not Hindu but I'm not sure if Hindu in Indonesia can be categorized as polytheism. Although they have trimurti (Brahma - Siva - Vishnu), don't they prefer to mention Sang Hyang Widhi? I think there are other different between Hinduism in India and Indonesia (Bali).

Regardless whether Indonesian Hinduism is a polytheism, the criticism is still apply.

However, there adre claims from some Kepercayaan (literally means "belief" but I prefer to translate it to "Indonesian Traditional Believe") that the original believe in Indonesia is a monotheism, closely to Panentheism. Kunderemp 17:12, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Aha!
Found my arguments in Agama Hindu Dharma article. I never heard The Hindu in Indonesia protest Pancasila. I'll delete it. Kunderemp 17:30, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Darul Islam against Pancasila

Was Darul Islam against Pancasila? If I remember correctly, Kartosuwiryo (Darul Islam in West Java) rebelled because they disagree with Renville Agreement while Daud Bereuh (Darul Islam in Aceh) rebelled because Soekarno merged Aceh Province with North Sumatra Province.

I read somewhere, Daud Bereuh as representation of PUSA (Persatuan Ulama Seluruh Aceh / United of Aceh Ulama)decided to join Indonesia in 1945 because the first pillar of Pancasila Kunderemp 17:12, 16 August 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Pancasila Pronounciation

" Pancasila, (pronounced /pæntʃæˈsiːlæ/) ... " What notation is that? Is 'æ' read as 'e'? Kunderemp 17:42, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

International Phonetic Alphabet. And IMHO it's incorrect, as Indonesian doesn't even have the /æ/ phoneme; it should be /panʧaˈsiːla/. Jpatokal 06:43, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
/æ/ is the 'a' in 'Padang' and 'Bapak'. See the rather more comprehensible International_Phonetic_Alphabet_for_English. With respect, I stand by my transcription. Davidelit 14:02, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
I think Jpatokal was correct. Looking at your references page:
/æ/: bad
Nope.. 'a' in 'Padang' and 'Bapak' is not pronounced as 'bad' in english. It should be pronounced as either:
/ʌ/: bud
or
/ɑ/: body, pod, father
Kunderemp 17:51, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
He he he. This could go on for a while. Maybe we should discuss this over a coffee :-). The root of the problem is that the two languages (or three? - see below) have slightly different vowel sounds
Your are correct that the 'a' in Padang is not pronounced the same as 'a' in 'bad' in American English. My argument is that it is closer to the 'a' in 'hat' in British English (see my original reference). Also in British English, 'body' and 'father' have different vowel sounds. As I am British, I went by the transcriptions in the first half of the article. By the way, would you agree that the 'a' is 'Pancasila' is the same as the 'a' in Padang?
By the way, I don't want to be sombong, so I'll check with some of my Indonesian teaching colleagues next week. Regards Davidelit 05:29, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
How about y'all fight this out on Indonesian language, which currently states that Indonesian has the phoneme /a/ but not /æ/, and then come back here when that is sorted out?
And FWIW, as a native speaker of a language with the phoneme /æ/, there's no way in hell that the original pronunciation of Pancasila was correct. /ɑ/ as in father I can accept. Jpatokal 09:12, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
You have a point.My rendering is not consistent with the Indonesian language page, which it should be in the interests of Wikipedia quality. I'll have a think and come back to it. Davidelit 04:42, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
I was going to change the pronunciation, but it's already been done. I'll concede this one in the interests of accuracy and consistency. Thank everybody for the inputs. Davidelit 13:35, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Allah and Tuhan

On August 18 1945, the group that ratified the Constitution unanimously agreed that the term "Allah" (God) should be replaced by "Tuhan" (lord), a more general term which was supported by the Hindus (Saafroedin Bahar et al 1992:305)

Both Allah and Tuhan means God. The different is, Allah was usually identified to Muslim (and Christian) while Tuhan is a more general term and accepted by all Indonesian. Kunderemp 18:13, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Note that the Preamble and the religious version of the presidential oath (article 9) both use the word 'Allah'. Only article 29 and the part of the preamble defining Pancasila use the word 'Tuhan'. Davidelit 14:10, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
I know. But the previous version was mistaken by diffentiating the translation of "Allah" and "Tuhan", while the former was translated to "God" (capital G) and the latter was translated to "lord" (small l). I change it so only Tuhan the word to be translated (to God with capital G) while "Allah" is untranslated (and let people who want to know the meaning can find it themselves by looking at the page Allah). Kunderemp 17:44, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article title

Where does the article title "Pancasila Indonesia" come from? All the sources seem to just refer to it as just "Pancasila". Perhaps a move to Pancasila (politics) would be in order?—Nat Krause(Talk!) 02:51, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

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