Talk:Palestine Liberation Organization and Hamas

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Article was listed on Wikipedia:Votes for deletion July 2 to July 9 2004, see Talk:PLO and Hamas/Delete for the discussion.

Contents

[edit] Ayyash

  1. 'Yiyha Ayyash' or 'Yiyhe Ayyash'? Or maybe even 'Yahya Ayyash' as it is spelt in January 5 and 1996? The spelling should probably be consistent, at least for linking's sake.
  2. Inconsistent use of the HTML &quot; entity and an ASCII quotation mark. I'd prefer the latter over the former. Another option is the HTML <q> tag. Has policy on this been discussed before?
-- Miciah

[edit] POV check

I don't mind that someone is adding a claim that this is disputed. I do wonder why it is disputed. Members of the PLO and Hamas have been very open about working together against Israel. Is someone claiming that these quotes have been fabricated? They exist in the Arab press and the Palestinian Authority press as well. Who told you that these quotes only appear on pro-Israel sources? That is a ludricrous falsehood, and not even remotely true. RK

I added the disputed tag. I did so after being directed towards this page in a debate on the Straight Dope message boards. I have the following objections to it

  • The opener in it's original form (i have since then changed it) implied that it was a proven fact that the PLO and the Palestinian Authority was "allied" with Hamas on an organisational level. Now "allied" is a term open to some interpretation. Nevertheless there is no support in the collection of cites and news stories for such a claim. That is in itself enough to dispute the NPOV of the page.


  • Correctness of the quotes: I am not claiming that they are fabricated. But there's a couple of problems with them.

    Many of them are fragmentary; that is, text from different parts of an original document has been bundled together to imply a coherent argument. This argument may be present in the original text, and it may not.

    The original document in it's entirety is not available on the internet in english for comparison.

    Key parts of quotes are inserted in brackets. F. e. in many of the quotes "Hamas" is inserted in brackets, and it is not possible to find out if such an insertion is a correct interpretation of the original text.


  • No-one told me that these quotes only appear on pro-Israel sources. I found out myself. The original arabic documents were of course unavailable to me. If you know where to get hold of a translated version, please let me know. So i was left with the internet. I did a Google search of the sequence of words in the first ten list items on the page. Out of them numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 9 and 10 existed only on this Wikipedia page and on some different Pro-Israel web sites. Only. You try it yourself! It's an educational excercise. Prominently www.likud.nl and www.zoa.com (Zionist Organisation of America) had collected a number of these quotes. Now i'm asking myself: How did the original author of this page do his research?


The Israeli government makes a big point out of claiming that Arafat / the PLO / the PA are in bed with terrorists. So not only was the original claim not supported by the quotes, it also had political implications.

-- cheers, RandySpears

Hm. I just can't wait for the pages linking american republicans and the KKK, or americans democrats and the KKK, or pages linking Ariel Sharon's support of communism, Hitler's support of an Iraeli exile state, etc. After all, this is wikipedia. Intellectual honesty, however, requires that such articles be treated as links between disagreeing groups, rather than articles that attempt to lump multiple groups together. Ronabop 12:33, 15 Feb 2004 (UTC)

After a month of silence, I've edited the heading to indicate that having similar goals is not the same as implying direct, ongoing, material support. Ronabop 08:07, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

This article starts off badly: Throughout 50 years of military occupation (excuse me, but I don't recall either the PLO or Hamas existing 50 years ago), and gets worse. A serious defect of Wikipedia is that junk like this can't be just deleted on sight. --Zero 16:12, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Edited to note that the conflagration is that old, and claims of alliance between groups have been proffered in that same timeframe. Ronabop 07:46, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)
So tell us an example of an organization "such as the Palestinian Authority (PA) and the PLO" which existed 50 years ago. --Zero 08:19, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Please show me the sources for this article, or I may get this listed on VFD... WhisperToMe 22:25, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I have moved the following quotes here from the article. Please provide a justification for restoring any of them. Thanks. -- Viajero 11:18, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)

  • Col. Jibril Rajoub, chief of the Palestinian Authority's Preventive Security Service, said in a May 27, 1998 interview with Al-Jazira television: "We view Hamas as part of the national and Islamic liberation movement. Outside of the 3 percent [of the West Bank that is under complete PA control] they can do as they wish. They can go to Jordan to carry out armed operations and they can also carry out such operations from Syria. At the top of my list of priorities is the Israeli occupation and not Hamas. We are not interested in arrests."
  • Arafat said 'Hamas, even its military wing, is a patriotic movement.' (The Russian newspaper Novoya Vremy, May 25, 1997).
  • Arafat publicly praised Yiyhe Ayyash, the master Hamas bomb-maker who killed at least 60 Israelis, as 'the struggler, the martyr' (New York Times, January 8, 1996) and 'a martyr' (Jerusalem Post, July 28, 1996).
  • Arafat also named a public square in Jericho after Ayyash, and publicly praised him as 'holy.'
  • Arafat's Foreign Minister, Farouk Kaddoumi, said: 'Hamas is part of the national movement and it has its own style and approach to action. It is resisting the Israeli enemy.' (An Nahar, March 9, 1996) Kaddoumi also stated: 'No one can complain about what Hamas and Jihad are doing. I say that it is the right of every Palestinian to struggle so long as there is a single Israeli soldier in the land of Palestine.' (Al Musawar, September 30, 1994)
  • PA Cabinet Minister Nabil Sha'ath said: 'We have a brotherly relationship with Hamas.' (Reuters, Oct. 28, 1994)
  • Hisham Abdel-Rizak, Fatah leader in Gaza, said: 'The dialogue with Hamas will not be broken off. Hamas is part of the Palestinian people.' (United Press International, Oct. 28, 1994)
  • Arafat praised Hamas leader Sheikh Ahmed Yassin as 'my brother Ahmed Yassin the warrior.' (New York Times, July 2, 1994)
  • Arafat named Imad Falouji, a Hamas leader, as a Minister Without Portfolio. Arafat chose Talal Sidr, a Hamas activist from Hebron, as Minister of Youth. (Jerusalem Post, Jan. 26, 1997)
  • In June 1998, PA Secretary Tayeb Abdel Rahim announced that Hamas and Islamic Jihad were being invited to formally join Arafat's cabinet. (The two groups declined the invitation.) (Associated Press, June 13, 1998)
  • An unidentified Hamas official calling himself "Abu Husām" claimed a joint operational center was established by Hamas and Fatah, PLO's military wing. (Interview in an Emirate newspaper "El-Biyan", as reported by Ynet on July 29th, 2002)
  • In late 2001 and early 2002, the PA shut down a number of Hamas offices, and arrested a number of mid-level Hamas activists. Some observers found this insufficient, claiming it had no effect upon Hamas' activities, and that the measures were only taken under US and Israeli pressure.
  • On March 22, 2004, the Palestinian Authority declared official three days of mourning over Hamas leader, Sheikh Ahmed Yassin (who was killed by an IAF airstrike).
This article is a rather simplist view of the issues, to say the least. Completely POV, and even fails to adress the current issues, let alone history. Tazmaniacs 23:02, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Joint terrorist attacks

  • A combined attack of explosive jeep, gun assult and Qassam shelling on Erez crossing and a Palestinian Police post was committed on March 6, 2004. A source in the militant group Hamas said it carried out the operation along with al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades (one of the Fatah's armed branch), and Palestinian Islamic Jihad.
  • A joint terror attack in Ashdod seaport, which claimed the lives of 10 Israelis, was committed by two suicide bombers on March 14, 2004. Yasser Arafat's Fatah and the Hamas claimed joint responsiblity in Hizbullah's Al-Manar TV channel. [1]
  • The Hamas, Fatah and Palestinian Islamic Jihad claimed a joint responsiblity for the attack on the Jewish settlement of Netzarim in the Gaza Strip on April 12, 2004. [2]

[edit] Other alleged links between the Hamas and the PLO

Israeli domestic press have asserted that they found some signs of joint activities:

  • Ninety Hamas members were hired to man the PA police force's 'vice department' (Jerusalem Times, November 25, 1994.)
  • In local elections in the West Bank, Arafat's Fatah faction has campaigned on joint lists with Hamas. (Jerusalem Times, June 23, 1995)
  • Hani al-Hasan, one of the associates of Yasser Arafat, said that Arafat will agree to form a new leadership parallel to the Palestinian Authority which consists of all the Palestinian factions, including Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad. [3] , [4]
  • Mua'in Atallah, an officer in the Palestinian Authority's "preventive-security" force, which was responsible for securing the Karni cargo crossing from the Palestinian side, was arrested for helping Hamas and al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades commit the suicide bombing in Ashdod seaport, which killed 10 people. Atallah admitted guilty in investigation and revealed that by closing off the crossing, Israel have thwarted a huge terror attack planned by Hamas. [5] , [6]
I have restored the two last sections, since they contain factual data that is relevant and important to the article. MathKnight 23:25, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Statement by Hamas concerning the PLO

The Hamas website states:

"Hamas opposed the 1993 accord between the Zionists and the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), which granted Palestinians gradual limited autonomy in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank and called for complete Zionist withdrawal from both areas.
"Hamas supporters have been prominent among those who have challenged the Palestinian National Authority led by Yasir Arafat, and its leaders have been subjected to mass arrests." [7]

[edit] POV check

I moved this part here, since its mixing up PLO with the Fatah, the Palestinian Authority and other organizations, and added a POV-check template. This article hasn't get any better since it has been nominated for deletion. Tazmaniacs 23:21, 24 April 2006 (UTC):

"Joint violent attacks

List of joint terrorist and guerrilla attacks

  • A combined attack of explosive jeep, gun assault and Qassam shelling on Erez crossing and a Palestinian Police post was committed on March 6, 2004. A source in the militant group Hamas said it carried out the operation along with al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades (one of the Fatah's armed branch), and Palestinian Islamic Jihad.
  • On August 3, 2004 two Hamas guerrillas and one al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades guerrilla tried to blow up an Israeli armored Caterpillar D9 bulldozer. The blast killed them and wounded 10 bypassers, causing no damage to the bulldozer and its crew. [10]

Other alleged links between the Hamas and the PLO

Israeli domestic press have asserted that they found some signs of joint activities:

  • Ninety Hamas members were hired to man the PA police force's 'vice department' (Jerusalem Times, November 25, 1994.)
  • In local elections in the West Bank, Arafat's Fatah faction has campaigned on joint lists with Hamas. (Jerusalem Times, June 23, 1995)
  • Mua'in Atallah, an officer in the Palestinian Authority's "preventive-security" force, which was responsible for securing the Karni cargo crossing from the Palestinian side, was arrested for helping Hamas and al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades commit the suicide bombing in Ashdod seaport which killed 10 people. Atallah admitted guilty in investigation and revealed that by closing off the crossing, Israel have thwarted a huge terror attack planned by Hamas. [17], [18]"
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