Talk:Pakistan

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Contents 1 Mohenjodaro image 2 nonstandard 3 Relegion 4 Pakistani Nationalism 5 [[Category:National symbols of Pakistan]] 6 The ramifications of a war in the Middle East for Pakistan 7 Coverage expansion - Media, Education and Islamic fundamentalism 8 History Section Far To Compressed 9 WikiProject Pakistan 10 Urdu translations 11 Requesting Page To Be Locked 12 Area figures 13 Bollywood Movies banned??? 14 Help 15 Pakistan's area and other statistics 16 checking sources 17 checking sources 18 Trying "too hard" 19 Hinduism ranking

[edit] Mohenjodaro image

Image:Priest King of Indus.jpg has been listed in possibly-unfree images. The image has dubious copyright tags. Can anyone replace it with a properly licensed version? Thanks. --Ragib 17:00, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] nonstandard

This section added by Subravenkat (talk • contribs) is nonstandard. Pakistan is a featured article, and should be treated as such. No need to introduce POV laden non-standard sections. Thank you. --Ragib 15:58, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Relegion

I find it astounding that, not only is there no article of relegion in Pakistan, but there is not a single mention of it in the article at all! This astounds me because the relegion in Pakistan is such a major theme and element, as such, I would ask that someone kindly add something to this article about relegion in Pakistan.

[edit] Pakistani Nationalism

Can someone please add a link to the Pakistani Nationalism article on this page?

I didnt want to make any edits to the page before consulting other members.

Thanks S Seagal 02:33, 24 September 2006 (UTC)S Seagal

[edit] [[Category:National symbols of Pakistan]]

Can someone take a look at the category and tell me how many of the articles included there are actually declared as part of National symbols of Pakistan? For example, is there any such thing as the "National reptile"? An anon user from various ips at 82.0.x.x have been adding various animals, flowers, fruits, khyber pass, a mountain, a crocodile, the Pakistani Military, Benazir Bhutto, Begum Liaquat Ali Khan and a host of other things as the "National symbol of Pakistan". The "Crocodile" sounds quite ridiculous, and so are the persons, so I'd like someone from Pakistan to verify the items added to this category. Also, please take a look at the article National symbols of Pakistan and remove the incorrect entries there.

Ideally, this cat, and the article should only contain items that have been declared by the Govt as national symbols (like flower, game, dress, fish, fruit etc.).

Thanks. --Ragib 00:49, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Several national symbols are listed on the Pakistani information ministry's website. I think it's fair to say that some of the symbols which aren't listed there, like the Minar-e-Pakistan, probably are national symbols but I can't find any official indications. I've removed the amusing but superflous ones by the anon user.

Green Giant 15:23, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for resolving this. The whole thing was quite frustrating ... as the anon was persistently adding one thing after another to the list and the category. Some of the things were obviously fake (like the "National crocodile"), but for other items, it was not possible for me as an outsider to verify the correctness. Thanks again for cleaning up the page. --Ragib 15:52, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The ramifications of a war in the Middle East for Pakistan

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=NAZ20061001&articleId=3361

[edit] Coverage expansion - Media, Education and Islamic fundamentalism

Hi to all - I think this article is lacking in three major areas. As a reader I would like to learn more of what kind of media infrastructure Pakistan has - newspapers, publications, tv, radio, satellite, phone, internet, etc. I would also like to see a subsection describing education systems - universities, colleges, madrassas, primary and secondary schools throughout the country. Such sections are "usually" a part of country FAs - not necessary but yet a part. I also think that "Holidays" should be compressed into the "Culture" section.

I see that Islamic fundamentalism is conspiciously absent from both politics and culture. I think its a matter of great importance that this article should tackle candidly. Large segments of Pakistanis are deeply influenced by Islam and fundamentalism - there are large numbers of madrassas everywhere. Organisations like the Tableeghi Jamaat are attracting top Pakistani celebrities like Inzamam ul Haq, Saeed Anwar, Mushtaq Ahmed, Mohammad Yousuf and former president Rafiq Tarar. Islamic fundamentalism is particularly important to describe in reference to Balochistan and NWFP. The "Culture" section paints a glossy picture but fails to describe the various social practices such as honour killings, feudalism and tribalism. Rama's arrow 18:21, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually Tableeghi Jamaat is mostly apolitical, and not at all fundamentalist. It is more of a missionary organization. I do think your other points are valid, and can be added to the article. --Ragib 18:29, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Please see Tabhligi Jamaat - many TJ leaders were involved in the Pakistan coup attempt of 1995. Additionally, the US is investigating this group for funding and supporting terrorist outfits. Rama's arrow 23:04, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Islam and extremist fundamentalism is totally a different thing.. what i dont understand is your reasoning for mentioning the names of Pakistani famous people with that.. If they turned towars religion, that is not extremism, its a belief of faith.. Kindly keep that in mind when addressing these issues again..iquadri 19:08, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

-- Pakistans constitution has had an amendment made to it. It states women do not need witnesses for accusations of rape [they actually had that, the Sardars and Nawabs wouldnt let them do anything about it though]. Now if a person is found guilty of rape they are given the death penalty. Harsh but it may decrease the immense levels of rape cases that have never been bothered with before.MOI 04:25, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

--"Large segments of Pakistanis are deeply influenced by Islam and fundamentalism"- ramas arrow. I would like to say that i beleive this is really truely ridiculous. This is like saying that a Christian or Jewish Religous person is an extremist. I dont think you were trying to suggest that but that is wut it sounds like. And Madrassa means : Arabic= Islamic school of thought, and these are some of teh only forms of education provided to impoverished children. Please take that into consideration before you make any more assumptions.MOI 04:29, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] History Section Far To Compressed

Ive been looking at this article and found that Pakistans history ie from Independence till 2006 is highly compressed in just two paragraphs.

I think it would be best if we made seperate articles for each decade since Pakistan's indepedence:

1. 1947-1958: The Democratic Era I, Jinnah, L Ali Khan, Bogra, K nazimuddein

2. 1958-1969: The Ayub Khan Era, Robust economic growth etc

3. 1969-1979: Yayha Khan and the Bengali Independence, The return of democracy Z A Bhutto The Democratic Era II.

4. 1979-1989: Zia Ul Haq era, I note that there is an article already titled 'Zia Islamization', Plus the War in Afghanistan against the Soviet Union which had a profound affect in Pakistan which was involved.

5. 1989-1999: The Democratic Era III, Benazir Bhutto, Nawaz Sharif, Nuclear Tests

6. 1999-Present: The Musharraf Era, War on Terrorism , Economic growth, etc

Once these six seperate articles detailing each decade of Pakistan since independence is made we can add a link to the relevant articles here in the history section. I think this is good idea since it would provides a more indepth information.

What do you people think?

S Seagal 12:02, 6 October 2006 (UTC)S Seagal

It would be better to link them from History of Pakistan. The history section here is a concise summary of that article, and rightfully so, as per summary style. Adding 6 links would just clutter the page. So, make the links from the History of Pakistan page. Thanks. --Ragib 15:14, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Im not sure if you understand what I mean, Im not talking about adding it to the history of Pakistan page, Im talking about 6 seperate new articles describing each decade of pakistan since independence, as a opposed to a brief paragraph in the history section and two paragraphs for over half a century of history on this article.

Something like:

• 'Pakistan in 1947-1957', Democracy I
• 'Pakistan in 1957-1967', Ayub
• 'Pakistan in 1967-1977', Bengali revolt, Z A Bhutto Democracy II
• 'Pakistan in 1977-1987', Zia Ul Haq
• 'Pakistan in 1987-1997', Democracy III
• 'Pakistan in 1997-2007', Musharraf

Im talking seperate articles, in depth, talking about politics, culture, science, and everything of relevance or significance that took place in that decade.

S Seagal 17:09, 6 October 2006 (UTC)S Seagal

I understood precisely what you meant. My suggestion was to create these articles, and since there is already relevant sections in History of Pakistan article, add links to these articles at the appropriate sections there. For example, under History_of_Pakistan#The_Islamic_Republic_of_Pakistan, there are subsections corresponding to the structure you are proposing. Let's say, we consider "9.1 Military coup and wars (1956-1968)". At the start of that section, add a link to Pakistan in 1957-1967 using {{main}}. This is the conventional way of forking details into new, detailed articles. Hope you understand my point now. Thanks. --Ragib 17:13, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject Pakistan

I have created a proposal for a separate wiki project for Pakistan , so as to enable us to manage Pakistan related articles better . According to Wikipedia we need around 5-6 members atleast to create a new project. Please Join in if you are interested.

Hussain 14:50, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Guys we already have gotten 5 members for the project , just one more ( preferably two) and we can start the project

Hussain 06:47, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Urdu translations

hi,

I'm in a process of creating a uniform system of creating articles on political parties across wikipedias of different languages. I need help with Urdu translations, please contribute at User:Soman/Lang-Help-ur. --Soman 14:10, 26 اکتوبر 2006 (UTC)

hey, I would like to help, but i cant type in urdu on the keyboard. Is there a way i can program my comp to let me use it? I have urdu script on my computer but.... I wouldnt mind doing Arabic either.MOI 04:20, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requesting Page To Be Locked

Hello,

This page is being vandalized by the minute, somone its the same reapeat offenders, One that especially comes to mind keeps changing the countries name to 'Bast**d child of England' and others are adding weasel words.

I'm actually fairly happy with the way the page is at the moment, I think most would agree that we cant really make any more improvements to the article than has already been done.

let me know what you think. S Seagal 18:08, 29 October 2006 (UTC)S Seagal

Seeing as the page reached featured status some months ago, I can't see the need for drastic changes to the article in the short-term at least. I think a semi-protected status would be useful in the face of this vandalism. 82.12.226.248 01:05, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

These are not really sufficient reasons to have any page semi-protected. Wikipedia articles are not supposed to be locked down, unless of course there is rampant vandalism. The way people edit this article now is not rampant vandalism in any way. --Ragib 04:19, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Area figures

A couple of weeks ago, someone changed the area figure for Pakistan to about 905,000 km2 based on a misunderstanding of what water areas refer to. The same someone immediately reverted this and when questioned on his/her talkpage quoted the CIA factbook, despite the factbook giving a different figure altogether. On pointing this out I was shown a calculation based on area figures for the various provinces and territories taken from relevant Wikipedia articles. Since Wikipedia cannot be used as a source, I have changed the figure to match the CIA factbook exactly. The figure does not include Azad Kashmir or the Northern Areas, simply because these are disputed areas. 82.12.226.248 01:01, 3 November 2006 (UTC) (P.S. Yes I already have an account and sometimes I can't be bothered to log in :P )

[edit] Bollywood Movies banned???

I went to Pakistan a few months ago, and Bollywood movies are available literally everywhere you go, and aswell as that, Devdas was aired in Geo Tv. Unless someone has reliable sources to prove this ridiculous claim, please delete it.

Cinema halls across Pakistan are not allowed to screen Bollywood movies. --Incman|वार्ता 20:11, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

True Deepak, Although Bollywood movies are prohibited to be viewed in the cinemas, people still can buy them in stores on DVD's and VHS etc.-Sami Ullah

Please note that all the DVDs and VHS tapes of Bollywood movies in Pakistan are pirated. At no point in time have any Bollywood DVDs ever been released commercially for sale in Pakistan, and carrying such DVDs when entering the country is prohibited.

[edit] Help

I would need help with expanding 2006 Pakistan madrassa air strike. Thanks. --Striver 21:13, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pakistan's area and other statistics

An ip and now a user insists that Pakistan's area is 880000 sq kms and not 803000 sq kms. The source cited here (CIA handbook) says its 803000. I have already reverted once and I usually try to hold myself to 1RR. And especially here because I am Indian by nationality. I have no bias either way but a mundane statistic like area should be decided for once and for all and not be an issue of a revert war. I leave this to a more neutral person. -- Lost^(talk) 17:19, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

The area of Pakistan proper (excluding Azad Kashmir and Northern Areas) is somewhere between 796,000 km² (according to the information ministry of Pakistan) and 803,000 km² (according to CIA factbook) depending on their definition of dry land area. The area expands to about 880,000 km² if we include Azad Kashmir and the Northern Areas. Since these are part of a disputed region it is questionable whether they should be included. I would err on the side of not including them for the following reasons. Irrespective of disputes, neither of them elects representatives to the Pakistani federal legislature and Azad Kashmir has a functioning government, which regards itself as a separate "Islamic Republic" from Pakistan (albeit subsidised by Pakistan). The only matters not controlled by Azad Kashmir are foreign affairs, defence and coinage/currency, which some people would argue are essential for separate countries. The counter-argument is that Azad Kashmir had it's own armed forces until they were fully incorporated into the Pakistani Army in 1971. The situation with the Northern Areas is that they are regarded as a federal dependency of Pakistan as a whole in much the same way that the Isle of Man is a Crown dependency but not actually part of the United Kingdom. Again Pakistan is responsible for foreign affairs, defence, coinage and currency. Equally however, the Northern Light Infantry was not incorporated into the Pakistani Army until 1999. Green Giant 20:11, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] checking sources

Where did this quote come from: Historian and geographer de Blij Muller characterized the historical embodiment of the land when he said, "If, as is so often said, Egypt is the gift of the Nile, then Pakistan is the gift of the Indus."  ??? There is no citation.

Svetlana Miljkovic 17:30, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] checking sources

When English became as an official language of Pakistan besides Urdu? I tried to locate the source about but could not find one. Can someone quote some official documents backing my quesiton. Thanks! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Shamspedia (talk • contribs). at 21:25, 13 December 2006

[edit] Trying "too hard"

Indians try so hard to make Pakistani history,identity,heritage,culture etc. look invisible that at times they try "too hard" and end up contradicting themselves. I can provide 2 examples:

1)Indians claim that Pakistan simply "did not exist" prior to 1947.At the same time they claim that Pakistan was always "a part" of India prior to 1947.The contradiction here is that how can something that doesnt exist be "a part" of something that does exist?

2)Indians claim that Urdu(which is more Pakistani than Indian considering the fact that it's roots can be traced to west Punjab,Turkey,Persia,central asia) and Hindi are "the same" or "identical" as if Urdu is not a language of it's own.At the same time they claim that Urdu is "parcially consisted" of Hindi. This is a condratiction of their first claim that Urdu and Hindi are "the same" or "identical" If X=Y how can we say that X is "parcailly consisted" of Y while saying X=Y or saying that they are the same?Claiming that Urdu is Hindi while claiming that Urdu is "parcially consisted" of Hindi doesnt make sense at all.Nadirali 16:27, 23 November 2006 (UTC)Nadiral

Nadiral, I dont see anything contradictory in above two points: 1.Of-course there was no Pakistan pre-1947 and the region currently called Pakistan was part of India. 2.Linguistically Urdu is same as Hindi with a different script. Perhaps by 'urdu is partially hindi' one means that majority of Urdu (as a dialect of hindi) words are taken from its mother language while rest are from foreign ones (persian,arabic).

I think the only contradiction here is in your head due to cognitive dissonance between reality and your beliefs. Astavakra 21:38, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Please carefully read what I have written before answering and see contradictory before using the word.Nadirali 23:58, 29 November 2006 (UTC)Nadirali

I don't agree with user:Astavakra. The mother language of Urdu is not Hindi any more than the mother language of Hindi is Urdu. The mother language of both Urdu and Hindi is Hindustani or, more accurately the register of Hindustani that was spoken in the Delhi and Western UP area from 1600 to 1800. I also don't agree with user:Nadirali that Urdu's "...roots can be traced back to west Punjab, Turkey, Persia, etc ..." Yes, it is true that Urdu borrows a lot of words from those languages, but not the grammar. The grammar is the same as Hindustani. Hindi borrows its grammar from Hindustani as well. One proof of this is that if an Urdu speaker doesn't use fancy words, they can be perfectly understood by a Hindi speaker and vice-versa. However, neither of them would be understood by a native Arabic, Turkish, or a central Asian language speaker. I don't know what the big fight is about. Urdu is a beautiful language. It has speakers and fans in both Pakistan and India. There will always be people trying to hijack the language for political ends. Best to ignore them and think of Dagh Dehlavi's lines:

Urdu hai jiska naam, hum hee jaante hain Dagh
Saare jahan main dhoom hamari jaban ki hai.

Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:50, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Take away the "fancy words" and most of Urdu is gone.Nadirali 06:15, 7 December 2006 (UTC)Nadirali

Take away all of urdu. it's better for the region! one language increase unity.--D-Boy 08:33, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

---

Nadirali: I have to heartily disagree with you. Off the top of my head I can think of half a dozen examples of the masters' that don't have fancy words. Here are two:

• Naahak yeh tukray chun chun kar, daaman pay sajaayay baithay ho

Sheeshon ka maseeha koi nahin, kya aas lagaayay baithay ho (Faiz Ahmad Faiz)

• Hum vahan hain jahan ki humko bhi

Kuch hamari khabar nahin aatee

Aagay aatee thi haale-dil pay hansi

Ab kisi baat pay nahin aatee (Ghalib)

Where are the fancy words?

Here are two more which have some "fancy words" in the first line, but it is the simple second line that gives them the poetic effect:

• Jaatee hui mahyyat dekh ke bhi, lillah na tum milnay aaye

Do char kadam to dushman bhi taqlif gavaaran kartay hain. (Faraz?)

• Ab yaaden raftagan ki bhi himmat nahin rahee

Yaaron ne kitnee door basaayin hain bastiyaan (Firaq Gorakhpuri)

Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:07, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Anonymous writes: I don't know why Indians spend so much of their time on Pakistan?!. And it's hilarious to see see some Indians talk about "unity" when in fact the whole world knows that the alien eastern neighbour dreams of hegemony over Pakistan. I simply ignore India and Indians and I wish one day my beloved Pakistan could do the same. Indians whether in India or whether they are "NRI's" (non-resident Indians) living overseas, no matter where in this world do their level best to malign Pakistan and harm its reputation: diplomats, civilians, soldiers, businessmen, athletes, you name it, each Indian will do his/her best to hurt and undermine Pakistan to the best of their capacity. Just read the comments Indians have to make about this article on Pakistan and you'll see how badly they are hurting, how frustrated and insecure they are! I mean they spend their life trying to make comparisons with Pakistan which has 10% of their population and roughly a third in size! It's hilarious and sad, but true. I personally don't care about Indians; I am indifferent to them until I see this side of theirs that perpetually tries to hurt Pakistan, and I see their real intentions masked by all this "cultural affinity" mumbo-jumbo! Hey Indians: NO ONE WANTS TO BE AN INDIAN - even Bangladeshis (its a smaller country than Pakistan) would rather die than to be seen as "Indians". In fact, if you <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/?s=check">check</a> out the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/search/immigration">immigration</a> statistics of any country today, you can <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/archive/bet">bet</a> top dollar that Indians are on the number 1 spot or in the top 3: largest single nationality consuming H1-B visas in US: Indians, highest number of applicants for UK immigration: Indians, and so on.....so all their claims that "India is great" are untrue because if it were true, then why do millions of Indians VOLUNTARILY abandon India? how come the lower and middle-class Indians dream of leaving India (and trust me that's 95% of the population!); and then go around the world telling the host country how India is this and that! Indians suffer from an inferiority complex: you see Aryans, Iranians, Arabs, Greeks, Afghans throughout history had such an EASY TIME conquering them, they now feel the urge to make noise by blowing their own trumpet and trying to lecture and interfere in neighbours like Bangladesh, Paksitan, etc.! It really is pathetic...they have a burning itch to prove themselves "superior" to the world.

And that point made about Urdu language is very true: Hindi has been corrupted to "Hindustani" language where the vast majority of vocabulary is in fact from Urdu (which is a mixture of Arabic, Farsi, Turkish, and unfortunately for the verbs, hindi/sanskrit). This has been used in the Mollywood (it's Mumbai now, right? named after Mumba devi, the hindu goddess...and name was changed in secular India in the 21st century!) movies; if they were hindi <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/?s=movies">movies</a> then it would be incomprehensible to all of Pakistan (a VERY GOOD thing from my perspective) and a large part of India. I personally don't watch "Hindi" <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/?s=movies">movies</a>, Indian <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/search/tv">TV</a>, etc. by choice - just not interested. The real problem with Pakistan is that its real identity keeps getting hindered due to the gullibility of Pakistanis: once Pakistan can overcome this internal problem, then the real crescent from Central Asia right down the Arabian sea can come to fruition. In the mean time its a ridiculous and unnecessary struggle between the real identity (culture) v/s love for or hangover from an alien eastern culture. To Indians: not all Pakistanis are gullible fools seduced by saris, spicy food and cricket matches! We know what you are all about. Your country started the nuclear arms race and we know why.....we also know that once Pakistan became a nuclear power (in response to yours) how you quickly made a U-turn from "trying to destroy us" to "hey, let's be friends"!! pathetic!

Finally, I would like Pakistanis to be careful of the alien eastern neighbour - acting probably comes naturally to them and here are a few pointers:

1. Indianized Muslims: there are Muslims in India who hate Pakistan and want it destroyed (so all I am saying is next time try to look at a person's deeds instead of names and titles..Khan this or Nawab that just doesn't cut it!). Try to read up on the deeds and speeches of India's Muslim President, try to realize that India is the ONLY country where Muslims voluntarily consummate marriages that are prohibited and then brag and boast about it, and remember Salman Rushdie is an Indian too! - you get the picture right?

2. "Unity": hilarious to see Indians chant this mantra! The India of today that was born in 1947 did not exist in the last 1,200 years: India was held by force by monotheists for 1,200 years: 1,000 years by Muslims and then 200 years by British Christians! So when an Indian says, "we are the same; or we should be united against some "common foes", this is nothing but foolishness. They give examples of "European Community" model ,etc. but the reality is that 80%+ population of the EU is Christian (and Indians should read up on how Europe became christian majority and what they did to non-Christians in the continent) so totally irrelevant example and another excuse that is used to guise their hegemonic designs.

3. History: don't forget history - remember 1971? I am amazed to see so many Pakistanis are "OK" with "secular Congress party in India"....hello? which party dominated in Indian politics during the wars of 1948, 1965 and 1971??? And just a reminder of what Indira Ghandi, an icon among "secular" Indians and the Congress party said when Bangladesh was born: "Today, we have avenged our 1,000 year defeat and sunk the two-nation theory in the Bay of Bengal". Dear Pakistanis: what "1000 year defeat" was she referring to? shows their true feelings towards Pakistan! Anyway, we all know what happened to her in the end.....her own bodyguards assasinated her....no they weren't Muslim bodyguards, but this time Sikhs! You may remember that in "retaliation" THOUSANDS of Sikhs were murdered by secular Hindu mobs as the police watched by! This is India's reality: 88% hindus who regularly lecture Christians, Muslims, Sikhs about "civility" but then once in a while kill thousands of these innocent people in "riots" while the police just <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/search/watches">watches</a> quietly. To the adherents of "united India" and the Congress party: hey, as soon as the 2-nation theory sank in the Bay of Bengal, the 3-nation reality emerged in that very same Bay of Bengal. Try asking a Bangladeshi if he/she wants to be or wants to be considered "Indian"....trust me, you won't like the response you'll get. You know how Indian <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/?go=army">army</a> interfered explicitly in 1971; during the 1962 Sino-Indian war, when incidentally China kicked India's can very rapidly and easily, Pakistan did not interfere as it was felt that it wasn't the nice neighbourly thing to do and what did we get in return? Pakistan could have easily opened another front while India was busy getting CRUSHED by China but Pakistan didn't.

So Indians, leave us alone and stop trying to act like the bully on the block; you are NOT what you think you are and you never will be. Leave us alone: go your way and we will go our way. I don't want war with India. But I also don't want my Pakistani identity to be undermined or diluted in the name of an alien culture, cricket matches, vulgar <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/?s=movies">movies</a>, spicy foods and saris!

I wish Pakistan foreign policy portfolio is realigned instead of the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/search.php?q=present">present</a> pathetic state: 90% engery and resources wasted on one eastern alien country.....! hello, there are over 180 countries in the world!!.

PAKISTAN ZINDA-ABAD! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Pakistani Knight (talk • contribs). at 21:25, 9 December 2006.

Glad you got that off your chest. BTW, it's not Mollywood, it's Mumblywood.  :) Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:51, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

--Urdu is derived from Persian and such languages. For example: persian [apple]: seeb Urdu[apple]: saib. Urdu is not from Hindi although there are similarities. This is just ridiclous, Its like saying that Italian came from French because they have many similarities.MOI 18:16, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

--also, maiz is persian for table and urdu for table, sabzi is urdu for a type of vegetable and the same with persian. Mumkin is Arabic for possible and urdu for possible, the arabic/persian alphabets are much more similar to Urdu than the Hindi alphabet. I think that should wrap it up. So we all agree, Urdu is a language in its own right???MOI 04:16, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, the problem is that from a linguistic viewpoint, it is the grammar and the base vocabulary that make a language, not the larger vocabulary. For example, the English language has almost 80% words of Latin origin (imported mainly from French as a result of the Norman invasion); however, English is considered a Germanic language and not a Romance language, because its grammar and base vocabulary (20%) is Germanic.

Similarly with Hindi and Urdu. For example, let's say, I made a sentence (using your words), "Mumkin hai billi ne maize par sabzi aur saib khaa liyay." If I didn't know the Persian and Arabic-derived words of your example, I could get the gist of my message across with, "Ho sakta hai, billi ne "table" par phal aur khaana khaa liyaa," because the words, "ho, sakta, hai, ne, par, aur, phal, khaa, liyaa" are all shared by Hindi and Urdu and are not of Arabic/Persian origin. They come from Khariboli dialect of Hindustani language, which is the basis for Hindi as well as Urdu. However, if you didn't know the base vocabulary, "ho, hai, ne, par, aur, liyaa," you'd be in deep trouble. Can't do much with "mumkin," "maize," "sabzi," "saib," without the linking grammar. One example of this is the language of children. Four-year olds, for example, speak the base vocabulary and (usually) get the grammar right; however, foreigners speaking a language, at least initially, don't get the grammar right, although sometimes they know a lot of fancy words. That's why four-year olds are more easily understood on the street than a foreigner. By the same token, if you put four-year olds from Pakistan (Urdu speaking), North India (Hindi speaking), Iran (Persian speaking), and Egypt (Arabic speaking) in a room, the first two will have no problems communicating; however the latter two will have to smile a lot and use their hands.

As I said earlier, Urdu doesn't come from Hindi, nor Hindi from Urdu; rather, both are children of Hindustani. Unfortunately, post-partition political imperatives have created rift between the two language, when there should be none. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:13, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

--I see wut u mean. Sorry, I thought we were trying to prove that Urdu comes from different languages.MOI 01:37, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hinduism ranking

I am removing line ", as well as the [[Hinduism by country|sixth most populous Hindu]] country" for following reasons

1. First it creates confusion and to balance this, the paragraph will require rankings for all other religions
2. The text belongs to Hinduism in Pakistan so I have moved it there
3. Actually Pakistan is ranked 5th according to Hinduism by country
4. Article Hinduism by country shows a {{Disputed}} tag on factual acuracy.

--IsleScape 11:01, 15 December 2006 (UTC)