Wikipedia talk:Ownership of articles

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[edit] Where's the line?

But when this watchfulness crosses a certain line, then you're overdoing it.

Where's the line? I'd like this page to include some guidance on specific "I own the article"-type behavior that should be avoided. (Particularly in the case this paragraph discusses, when an editor has uncommon expertise and/or interest in an article.) -- Rbellin 23:24, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] But don't waste time trying to change someone's mind.

Or if someone else is claiming "ownership" of a page, you can bring it up on the associated talk page. Appeal to other contributors, or consider the dispute resolution process. But don't waste time trying to change someone's mind.

I've removed that last sentence, I don't think we should ever be advising people not to talk to other editors and try to make them see your point of view. --fvw* 14:43, 2004 Dec 6 (UTC)

[edit] Direct release to the Wikipedia Organization

Will it ever be likely that, instead of having to release it under the GFPL, Wikipedia would allow us to release our rights directly to the Wikimedia Foundation? I like to write for charity purposes, but I would much prefer not to release my works under a GNU-owned license. Almafeta 03:36, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Dedicating copyright to another person or an organization requires that you have a signed written document authorizing the dedication. It's possible, but I doubt that the Wikimedia Foundation wants that responsibility. That said... you do realize that Wikipedia being available under the GFDL doesn't make it "owned" by the Free Software Foundation, right? --ESP 03:34, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
It wouldn't be hard at all; just add a checkbox under 'This is a minor edit' stating 'I release the rights for this article to the Wikipedia Organization.' Other websites do it. Almafeta 16:49, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
It's not technically hard to do, but the WMF would likely then be "personally" responsible for any copy-vios, or libel. -- user:zanimum

[edit] Do we own our user pages?

Shouldn't we be specific about whether or not Wikipedians own their user pages? I have seen some editors who tell people, "Feel free to edit my user page" (I think Jimbo is one of them), and others who do not want their user pages edited by anyone else, or who keep a count of how many times their user pages have been vandalized. --Idont Havaname (Talk) 23:01, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Another example is talk page vandalism where someone's words are rewritten to have a different meaning, sometimes in order to set them up for an accusation under WP:NPA. (This is usually only done by vandals who don't understand how to use page history.) This has happened to me at least once, and an admin considered the act a blockable offense (fraud) and blocked the vandal who rewrote my comment.
So that's my question: under what circumstances is it "okay" to remove a comment from a talk page? For your own talk page, can you remove any comment? Can you only remove personal attacks and attempts to reveal personal information (address, phone #, etc.)? Can you rewrite other people's comments about you and leave their signature attached to the new words, as was done to me? On someone else's talk page, do you have the right to retract or alter your words by removing some or all of what you've written? Do others have the right to revert you doing this? This seems to be a pretty large grey area in WP:OWN, unless I'm missing something. Kasreyn 23:58, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
And for that matter, what about user subpages? I keep a list of my favorite quotes under my userpage. Do I have the right to remove or edit a quote someone added to it without my permission (if such a strange thing should ever happen)? Does anyone else have the right to remove or edit a quote they find offensive on my quotes file? Kasreyn 00:02, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
It seems no one is willing to answer... (cricket sounds), dare we be bold and make make a revision to this page mentioning ownership of userspace (including subpages)? -- The Prophet Wizard of the Crayon Cake (Prophesize|Witchcraft) 01:06, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
  • In case it wasn't clear, the anwer is (and always has been) no. We cut people a lot of slack over user and Talk pages, but no they do not own them, they can be deleted if they are abused, locked if people insist on using them inappropriately, and are of course open to being edited mercilessly. Wikiquette says we allow people to say things in their own words on their User and Talk pages, but that's about it, and even that is trumped by WP:NLT, WP:CIV and so on. Just zis Guy you know? 15:59, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
Yep, no ownership of anything, including user pages, but I think you will be forgiven for reverting an edit to your userpage or sub-page, and I doubt that there are many cases where someone will be able to enforce an edit to another user's sub-page, unless there is an obvious and demonstrable reason. User:Pedant 17:53, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Inaptly named

I think this page should be renamed. I'm currently trying to tell a new user that he should be more flexible in allowing his own content to be edited mercilessly, but if I have to refer to this page it comes off really bad. He is not trying to "own" articles! He is just, like so many new editors, not very used to people commenting, changing and reverting his work within several minutes of making them! We could be more understanding of that by renaming this article to "Letting your contributions go" or something of the sort. It would show much more Tacttm on the Wiki side.

Any thoughts?

Cheers, The Minister of War (Peace) 15:31, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Not a bad idea. Anyone else like it? -- The Prophet Wizard of the Crayon Cake (Prophesize|Witchcraft) 01:04, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
I think The Minister is right that this title does not convey the appropriate message. I personally think "Ownership of contributions" would be a better title, as it confronts the real issue (people getting upset about changes to content they have added), and also includes Categories, Portals, Templates, etc. in one fell swoop. --Nscheffey(T/C) 02:31, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm inclined to agree with Nscheffey, The porphet wizard, and The Minister: changing 'articles' to 'contributions' covers a lot more, and makes it clear that one doesn't own even one cherished sentence. User:Pedant 17:57, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Sure, it covers a lot more—because they are two different issues. We don't need that. Gene Nygaard 20:08, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
I think that "Letting your contributions go" would be more tactful than "Ownership of contributions", and it's important to be tactful with new users. (It's mostly the newer users who need to read this, too.) This way it sounds more like guiding, helpful instructions rather than a rigid code. Also, it's important to make sure they understand why it's better to not be possessive. They aren't used to our policies and customs yet. Jobarts-Talk 01:53, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
"Letting your (stuff) Go" is a cute title that could be misunderstood. I like it, but.... ;) As someone who just found this page (I was talking about this issue at the edit war talk page, calling offenders "page squatters"), I think it needs to be clear and concise, even to non-native EN speakers. How about Ownership of content since this applies to categories, pages, sections, sentences, images, etc....? — David Spalding ta!k y@wp/Contribs 21:28, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal to expend to all content namespaces

How about expanding this policy to the image:, template:, category: and portal: namespaces? It would merely require a few edits to replace "writing" with "material". Circeus 01:56, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Agree. See my comment in the section above. — David Spalding ta!k y@wp/Contribs 21:29, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] changes

I made a couple of changes - hope that's ok - a couple of the points were quite misleading, especially the idea that, having released something under the gfdl you could also then release it under any other licence. I changed that to read 'some other licenses'. While I guess you could release it under any other license, you would open yourself up to some fairly predictable lawsuits if you did. Gravitor 17:03, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Copyright ownership

I removed the text as part of a campaign to streamline policy and avoid duplicatation of material among policy pages.

This matter is more fully addressed at WP:C, which I believe is where it belongs. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 21:59, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Editors citing their own webpages

Is this an appropriate place to discuss the issue of an individual creating, maintaining and controlling a personal website, and then coming here as an editor and using its content to provide information as secondary sources in Wikipedia articles? For example, in an article about apples, the editor archives a lot of newsgroup discussion about new apple varieties under development, and then goes to our Apple article and cites his personal website's newgroup archives as a secondary sources under a section which he might title, ==new apple varities==. Terryeo 19:19, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, no, this isn't really the appropriate place. Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources would be better if you haven't posted there already and the accompanying guideline (Wikipedia:Reliable sources) already seems to cover this. But the short answer is: a personal website usually isn't a reliable source, since anyone can start one and post whatever they like, and therefore as a rule shouldn't be used as a reference in an article. - Bobet 15:44, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Objection

I have a strong objection to User:Viriditas' recent edits to this policy, the User is currently involved in a dispute which he is characterising as an ownership dispute, and editing the relevant policy at the same time. See Talk:Hippie. I would appreciate it if a neutral party would look over the edits to insure they are appropriate. Thanks User:Pedant 17:34, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I have reverted then since they were made in order to fit a dispute that he is having with other editors (Not me I'm neutral). The edits were made in semi-bad faith in order to make it appear that he is following policy. Æon Insanity Now!EA! 17:53, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

That's a very serious claim. Please provide evidence. How were the edits made to make it appear that I am or am not following policy, and how do my edits to the policy page deviate from the core policy? More importantly, how do my edits to this policy page give me an advantage? The edits were made as new content, as I have not edited the original or core policy in any way. I have in fact, expanded upon the policy, using examples and information that I have gleamed from the wiki. Awaiting your response... —Viriditas | Talk 03:35, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

While I agree with the worries expressed above, I think his additions are valid examples of the issues addressed by this policy. I would vote for their reinstatement. AndyJones 19:04, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Again as a neutral party if consenus say to keep them then that is fine but for right now I don't think he should make changes to a policy while in a dispute that involves this policy (Makes it look like he is not neutral in my opinion, and only making them in order to make his side stronger (Again this is the way it looks to me)). So I would advise that he not make edits to this policy for now until his disupte is settled. Æon Insanity Now!EA! 19:15, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, these allegations are being made by User:Pedant, an AMA advocate, who appears to be involved in a content dispute on Talk:Hippie, of which I am the receipient of his complaints. He is currently in the process of expanding his complaint against me on various talk pages, RFC pages, and policy pages. In the process, he has dragged in an innocent editor by the name of Aeon1006, who is also an AMA advocate. I want to apologize to Aeon1006 in advance, as I had no idea Pedant would do this. Pedant's behavior is starting to look like wikistalking. —Viriditas | Talk 03:02, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
appears to be involved in a content dispute (quote Viriditas) User:Pedant: It is far more than a content dispute, just look at the page in question, I'm not expanding the complaint, Viriditas is expanding his offense! I have asked for help from one of the AMA coordinators in finding an advocate, because I'm not sure how advocates advocating for advocates should be handled:
"I think I might need an advocate soon. I'm not sure how we do that... any advice? My situation is an editor making wholesale bad changes to an article that I and 3 collaborators worked for the last month on. The 'other' editor has refused discusssion, has made comments that read as if he knows best, ignored other editor's comments, and requests for discussion, and now has created an RfC, in part citing WP:OWN, while at the same time editing the policy at WP:OWN, apparently with the intent of making our dispute 'clearly fit' the policy. It's going to be kinda grim, as there is about 20-30 feet of text to read to really understand what's happening. Any advice on this would be welcome, I prefer to read it here on your page though, if you don't mind. User:Pedant 17:47, 22 September 2006 (UTC)"
...and Aeon responded saying he would handle my advocacy himself. I'm not stalking Viriditas whatsoever (I've never even looked at Viriditas' User page, or contribs) I've been working with 3 other editors for weeks on Hippie and then Viriditas inserted himself into the group, and began barging around giving orders and generally chasing off anyone who disagreed with him. He has refused to discuss any of his edits in any substantial or collaborative manner. Basically either he or I is wrong because there is no possibility of us both being right. I'm losing the ability to even feign civility in this case and I'm going to rely on the rest of Wikipedia to fix the damage Viriditas has done. I'm not willing to work with Viriditas on anything at all any more. I've totally lost it. User:Pedant 09:02, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Sorry to hear that. Just want to let you know, that I'm always willing to work with you, and my door is wide open. If you can comment on my expansion of the policy, I would appreciate it. —Viriditas | Talk 06:04, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Again as a neutral Party I would like to advise both sides to seek mediation on this issue to prevent it from getting out of hand. Æon Insanity Now!EA! 16:14, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I have posted this on the policy pump to get more community consensus. This is a policy, and needs the community to approve any edits. -Royalguard11(Talk·Desk) 02:10, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I like the additions. I got into a series of minutia-related conflicts a few months ago with an editor who did these sorts of things (including the snide remarks in the edit summaries), and actually stopped working on articles in that subject area for a while because it became more a source of frustration than a source of good feelings about making good articles. --SB_Johnny|talk|books 23:55, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
If the additions in question are represented by this edit, then I like them too. The first two examples ring true with me. Thankfully I haven't ever seen the third, but I can add my own experience. To those who are worried about changing policy, I don't think a list of examples is actually a big deal. Melchoir 18:21, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
The new edits seem more appropriate to an essay than a policy. I don't think they're incorrect, so much as a little too focused on a specific type of ownership, potentially making the policy harder to use in other situations and as behaviors change. I'm also generally in favor of keeping policies as streamlined as possible. The longer and more specific they are, the harder they are for people to absorb and follow. Using an essay instead of adding to a guideline gives more flexiblity allowing users who just need the basics to get them fast, while others who want to explore the (or quote) the philosophy and impact in depth can read more. --Siobhan Hansa 18:51, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Hmm... I've gone through this page's history more critically, and it does appear that previously, there wasn't any prescriptive material on identifying or dealing with Owners. I would support splitting the new material into an essay or even a guideline. Melchoir 19:01, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I added the new material. Addressing both Melchoir (who did a fantastic job copy editing) and Siobhan Hansa, I agree with keeping policy streamlined, but a page like WP:NPOV, WP:CIV, WP:DEL and others, inform the readers with examples and suggestions. I could certainly see it being spun off as an extended essay if it was to grow twice as large, but at the very least, it helps readers and editors to see examples. —Viriditas | Talk 06:10, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
If the examples were short and concise I might agree (although I wouldn't mind seeing some of the other policies cut a bit too :-) But to me these examples dominate the policy to an extent that they give unreasonable prominence to a couple of types of ownership, and in far too much detail. I think this makes the entire policy look like it's limited to the examples given, and the way those examples are wrtten makes it difficult to draw more general guidance that can be applied in a broader context. --Siobhan Hansa 20:02, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
I agree completely. Would you mind taking a stab at shortening the examples and related items, and splitting the rest off to an essay page? As long as there are brief examples, and a pointer towards resolution, I support a split. —Viriditas | Talk 21:16, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I should have been clearer. I might agree. I would prefer the changes not be made. I thought the policy was excellent before. --Siobhan Hansa 21:33, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Not a problem, but the policy did not give examples before; most policies provide examples. —Viriditas | Talk 22:23, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Group ownership

I assume this includes articles about groups; this would preclude any 'ownership' by those in that group; eg. the article on Masons would not be restricted to editing by Masons only. I was just looking for something stating exactly that so that I could be reassured; I found this, which I assume it includes. Please let me know on my talk page. Scoutersig 03:02, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I would hope so. An editor created an article about his daughter (who was murdered February, 2006), which was userfied and Afd'ed. He also created a page about the non-profit organization he formed to educate and also influence legislation, named after his daughter. That article still exists, but complaints about it usually result in a rebuttal from the editor that the complaints are personal attacks and in bad faith. Concerns about notability and conflict of interest don't seem to be penetrating the editor's consciousness. It would be humorous but for the tragic circumstances that instigated it all. ... Clear case IMHO of a person who is a member (or in this case, started) a group/organization, insisting on creating an article about it here, arguing with editors about notability (with only one newspaper article to cite), and also fending off comments with complaints of persecution. Almost makes me want to add Wikipedia is not ... therapy to the appropriate essay. — David Spalding ta!k y@wp/Contribs 21:43, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Page squatters

I asked something like this question on Wikipedia_talk:Edit War, but it seems that WP:OWN is the more appropriate policy forum.

  • I've noticed on several articles that there are regular editors who chide newbies and revert edits with arguments like, "This has already been discussed endlessly, please read the Talk page archives." (And when you're ready for retirement and have finished reading endless kilobytes of old Talk pages, then you can edit, chum.)
  • This isn't quite a case of having to ask an editor's permission to edit, or posting a request to come aboard topic on the Talk page, so much as just staying, "This our club, you have to read the rules before joining."

I'd like to add an example quote or brief description of the behavior, as it differs from those who've created a page or are even principle contributors. Anyone can make the assertion, and thereby discourage new users from being bold. I'll post a couple of suggested examples below. — David Spalding ta!k y@wp/Contribs 22:53, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Events

  • New edits are reverted, with the reasoning that the edit is similar to one suggested previously, and deprecated by editors at that time.

Comments

  • "This has already been argued and decided before. Please read the Talk page discussions before making new edits to this article. Thanks."
This isn't actually an ownership issue, unfortunately, it's a dispute resolution issue. Look at it from their point of view. They hammered out a painful compromise, probably not completely satisfying anyone, but leading to some kind of consensus version. Then someone who wasn't involved in the compromise comes in, and makes a change, probably strongly favoring one of the sides that was involved in the argument. Either they act as they did, asking the new contributor to participate in the discussion on the talk page - or the entire idea that people can reach an agreement on talk pages becomes invalid. So, unfortunately, without knowing what exact page you are referring to, I can well imagine the other side may be right. AnonEMouse (squeak) 23:26, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
While there are probably some constructive ways to handle it without biting, this type of activity is actually somewhat necessary. In articles about controversial topics consensus is necessary in order for there to be any progress, but it can't be required to try for a new consensus every time a new editor chimes in. Evolution was nearly paralyzed by repetitive arguments that recurred on a near-daily basis until regular contributors started being firm about "Read the archives" type comments, and the same was true of Abortion. In certain topics with extensive archives, most of the issues have been resolved through consensus over a long period of time. Unless some kind of new information is being provided, it shouldn't be necessary to revisit the same point of controversy day after day, just because a new editor hasn't had a chance to sound off yet. Of course, someone bringing new information to the topic should certainly be given a chance to discuss it. Doc Tropics 03:38, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Such article should probably have a section at the very top hammering issues that have been discussed at length and their resolution, with link to relevant archives and a warning that arguments brought without having actually read these will be outright ignored. I would explain that to a new contributor and then say that if he really wants to reopen the debate, he'd better have good new arguments, and thus he should read the archives. If explained in a level headed fashion, the user will either give up or actually be stubborn and read the archives. If a warning has been issued, he might be ignored later. Circeus 04:22, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
I wish I could report these were controversial pages like "near-term abortion," "creationism," "Michael Jackson," or "was Liberace gay," but the examples I encountered were popular topics like Blade Runner, where the previous editors could be pretty much self-anointed experts. Please follow with me, I'm talking about page squatters, and example comments/warnings. I agree, that a new editor -- in a perfect world -- will be sensitive and aware of last year's debate about "did Deckard lose a tooth in his fight with Leon," but this shackles policies like "Be bold" and "don't bite the newbies." If new editors can't make an edit without being idoctrinated with a page's history, then ... we slow down churn of a page. Maybe I'm off-whack, but I don't think churn should generally slow down as an article gets older. The very real and beneficial risk here may be that WP articles are never really done. ... Oh boy, getting too philosophical, too late at night. I retire to pillow-mode. EOL. — David Spalding ta!k y@wp/Contribs 07:01, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject consensus

I'd like to alert editors here to an issue which has has come up along the lines of the above comments about pre-existing consensus, which has proceeded to Arbitration.

In a nutshell: The question is whether or not WikiProjects, or other groups of interested editors, are allowed to come up with guidelines for a set of articles, even if those guidelines are not in strict adherence with other Wikipedia-wide guidelines. And further, whether or not any articles in conflict can be reverted without going through normal RM processes.

As a longer version: There are WikiProjects related to television episode articles, who have come up with recommended naming conventions for the articles within their sphere of influence. Some of these discussions, as mentioned by AnonEMouse above, involved long and painful consensus-building debates, which resulted in compromises which may not have been in strict accordance with Wikipedia-wide guidelines. For example, about a year ago the Star Trek editors came up with a naming system where all episode articles use a consistent suffix such as (<seriesname> episode) (see the subcategories at Category:Star Trek episodes), even if not specifically required for disambiguation purposes. A few editors on the other side of the debate claim that this practice is in violation of WP:DAB guidelines, and they have been sweeping through thousands of television episode articles, moving them without discussion or any attempt at WP:RM.

It's my own opinion that WikiProject consensus should be respected, but "ownership" issues are being raised.

In any case, it's moved on to ArbCom at this point. Any interested editors are invited to participate in the discussion and/or offer statements, at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Naming Conventions and the related Evidence and Workshop pages. --Elonka 19:51, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Could you provide a link to the long and painful consensus-building debate the Star Trek editors had, that resulted in a naming convention? Thanks. --Milo H Minderbinder 20:21, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
  • What're you, a glutton for punishment? Fighting insomnia? ;) David Spalding (☎ ✉ ✍) (old school Trekkie)
Interesting. I just had an experience like this. I noted that The Wicker Man was the "main topic" page for that term, with a link to the the 2006 remake and The Wicker Man (disambiguation). Seemed damned inconsistent to me. Over at the Wikiproject Film style page, was a clear guideline instructing that when two films of the same name were made, each would be titled TITLE (YEAR film). The older would be moved. I posted my intent to move and got some arguments in answer (I'm paraphrasing mercilessly):
  • This is the original film, dammit, not the cruddy awful remake, and deserves to be the "main page" – IOW the version we all know and love takes precedence;
  • There are many pages for films that have been remade where the original film's page is still the main topic (Night of the Living Dead, Cat People, The Italian Job, The Texas Chainsaw Massacre) – are you going to "fix" all those?;
  • Guidelines are only that, and not to be taken too literally.
I chaff at all those for the following: 1) WP is objective, and NPOV means not playing favorites. 2) Others' mistakes don't mean that we repeat the mistakes like lemmings. 3) Guidelines provide consistency and credibility to WP as a reference. Willy-nilly deviation from guidelines turns it into an acid party of information.
Fortunately, someone pointed me to WP:DAB#Primary topic which clearly asserts that if a certain title or usage is clearly predominant, make that the "main topic," link to a disambiguation page, make the disambig' page link to an unambiguous page which redirects to your beloved main topic page. Say that five times fast! Clearly contradicting what the Film Wikiproject dictates. Another example might be if Freddie Footinmouth decides that Blade Runner needs to be the disambiguation page, and wants to move the current film article to Blade Runner (film) (currently a redirect page). Those who adore the film and squat upon teh page will administer the VK test to you without delay, and declare "time to die." Same with Wicker Man. Personal passion and bias overshadows as innocent an idea as "let's keep WP consistent." (sigh) I fear there is no answer, just a long road of compromise and flexibility ahead. (off the soapbox) David Spalding (☎ ✉ ✍) 05:08, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
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