Talk:Outer darkness

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[edit] Outer Darkness

Part of an ongoing conversation:

Sorry about my recent rants about Outer Darkness but am curious if what I'm saying makes sense to you. It is a hard thing to explain. It's basically the name differences, not a shift in concepts. B seems to be busy, and I was hoping to get some feedback from him on how to write/word the issue.

Anyway, thanks for putting up with my asinine doctrinal issues. I know I'm more of a stickler than most, and I know I don't have a clue on most of the real issues. All I know is that many things we hold to as absolutes are speculation - not that they are wrong, just speculative. Visorstuff 20:20, 21 Nov 2003 (UTC)

The current text of the Outer Darkness article makes sense to me and it lines up with what I've always understood. Perhaps we could add links to Celestial, Terrestial and Telestial Kingdoms in parantheses after "...and continue on to a Kingdom of God," but since no articles exist for them yet, there's really no point (right now).

The only thing I think we don't really sync up on right now is eternal progression. My view has been, after one dies, one goes to Spirit Prison or Paradise, depending on righteousness/baptimal state. In Prison (if one accepts the Gospel), one may pass on to Paradise if one's work is done for them (hence all the work we do in the temples). SPrison is not necessarily an unpleasant place (we really don't know AFAIK), but it's not as nice as SParadise.

My understanding was that SoPs would go to Outer Darkness after the Final Judgement. While awaiting judgement, they would be in Spirit Prison. However, this is not a big deal to me and I'm willing to accept whatever change you feel is correct. You seem to have a much better grasp on the scriptures than I do—I really haven't been reading them as much as I should lately (two conflicting commandments: have children, read your scriptures...). —Frecklefoot 20:49, 21 Nov 2003 (UTC)

K-you can delete this after you read it. I don't mean to put so much on your page.

Our understandings are the same as far as eternal progression (and the process), however, I am using the scriptural terms and you are using the "common mormon markup language." Let me try this in bullets, cause I really want you to understand where I'm coming from on this. Again, the idea is the same, just different names that what you hear in sunday school. However, what I use are the scriptural names.

• When you die you go to the spirit world. Which has two parts. The righteous go to a good place, the unrighteous to to a bad one. (I think we agree on this)
• If you recieve the gospel while in the bad place you can go to the good place so to speak. No word on if the division is geographical or not (I think we agree on this).
• According to D&C 138, the whole post-mortal spirit world is also called Spirit Prison (same place, just another name). It is called this because we don't have bodies. It is a good place. We just feel in bondage because we don't have bodies. The dead captive will arise and be made free at the resurrection. (138: 16 "the bands of death", 138:50 "looked on their long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage," 138:29 Christ went to prison, but only to the unrighteous to organize missionary work). (we differ on the correct name of this place).
• The good place in the spirit world (or spirit prison) is called paradise (Alma 40:13) (we differ on the correct name of this place).
• Christ went to the spirit world or spirit prison (see 1 peter 3&4, 138:29), not to teach the wicked (the bad division), in "prison" (the whole post mortal spirit world), but to organize the righteous (paradise) in "prison" (the whole post mortal spirit world) to teach the gospel to those in the bad part of the spirit world (D&C 138).
• The bad place in the spirit world (or spirit prison) is called outer darkness (Alma 40:13)
• Alma taught that when you die you go to paradise or outer darkness (Alma 40:13)
• At the time of the final judgement, all will be resurrected (whether in the first or second resurrections)
• All will be assigned to various kingdoms of glory (celestial, terrestrial, telestial), except the sons of perdition.
• Sons of perdition go to a really bad place that most Mormons call "outer darkness." Although used by Mormons, the place is not named this. No one knows why they call it that. Nowhere in scripture or correlated materials is the words "outer darkness" used to discuss where the sons of perdition go. How this started, we don't know. One thing is for user - the term has been assigned a different connotation than it was meant or that was revealed, at it's never made it out of our vocabulary and will continue to stay a misconception for many more years.
• Joseph Smith said the place where sons of perdition go is called Gnolom.

Here are the mormon markup terms and the correct, scriptural terms

Common Mormon Markup Language=Scriptural term(s)

• Spririt World = Spirit World or Spirit Prison (same place)
• Paradise = Paradise
• Spirit Prison = Outer Darkness or Hell (same place)
• Outer Darkness = Everlasting punishment (D&C 76:44), Gnolom, Gnolaum.

In summary, my concept is the same as what you refer to as paradise or prison, however, I am using the correct scriptural terms. The chart we draw and the progression is the same, just different names. As stated on another page, according to church publications, one of the reasons why Section 138 was added to the D&C was to clarify that the post mortal spirit world is called spirit prison and to fix the "naming" misnomer.

References: Mormon Doctrine p551 for "Post-mortal Spirit World" is the same as "Spirit Prision" correlation. Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith p361, Mormon Doctrine p316 for Joseph Smith saying Gnolom is where sons of perdition go. He did not use the words "outer darkness"

Alma 40:11-14 11 Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection—Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life.

12 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.

13 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house—and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be dweeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil.

14 Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery dindignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this estate, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection.

D&C 76:25-38 25 And this we saw also, and bear record, that an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God, who rebelled against the Only Begotten Son whom the Father loved and who was in the bosom of the Father, was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son,

26 And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning.

27 And we beheld, and lo, he is fallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning!

28 And while we were yet in the Spirit, the Lord commanded us that we should write the vision; for we beheld Satan, that old serpent, even the devil, who rebelled against God, and sought to take the kingdom of our God and his Christ—

29 Wherefore, he maketh war with the saints of God, and encompasseth them round about.

30 And we saw a vision of the sufferings of those with whom he made war and overcame, for thus came the voice of the Lord unto us:

31 Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power—

32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;

33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;

34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—

35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.

36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—

37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;

38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall anot be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.

D&C 138: 28-30, 50-51 28 And I wondered at the words of Peter—wherein he said that the Son of God preached unto the spirits in prison, who sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah—and how it was possible for him to preach to those spirits and perform the necessary labor among them in so short a time.

29 And as I wondered, my eyes were opened, and my understanding quickened, and I perceived that the Lord went not in person among the wicked and the disobedient who had rejected the truth, to teach them;

30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead.

50 For the dead had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage.

51 These the Lord taught, and gave them power to come forth, after his resurrection from the dead, to enter into his Father’s kingdom, there to be crowned with immortality and eternal life,