Talk:Ouija

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To discuss opinions about Ouija boards, go to User:Monkey13/Ouija --Monkey 13! 00:24, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

There is an error in the first sentence, ouija is not a beief, but is an object. A lot of the 'facts' are unproven, and this article does not provide enough discussion on how or why the ouija gained its malevolent character.

I might also add that most books written about the ouija board are heavily biased, and much of it totally rubbish, and not worthy as reliable sources.

Contents

[edit] History

This article says that talking board were fist used in the mid 19th century. I've read another source that date them back 4th century Roman empire, or even before Christ in Greece.

Link is here: http://www.crystalinks.com/ouija.html

I don't know if the site is accurate or not. Have you ever read anything about this before? If so, maybe it should be mentioned.

[edit] Critics

It is religious critics who are warning us of ghosts and the like. I doubt that atheist/agnostic critics of talking boards are too worried about this. Smiloid

28Jan05-- Reworked and cleaned up the page. Deleted unsubstantiated items and things that were not relevent to the article. Also reformatted the whole page. I don't know what the hell 'directional drilling' is so I left that part fairly untouched.

  • just for info: directional drilling is where you can control the direction of the drill. Normally you can only drill straight down (with maybe some deflections of the occasional rock, but nothing controlled).

[edit] How is it done?

Reworded the paragraph at the end of the "How is it done" section (recently added by 195.93.21.34), as it didn't seem to fit with the balanced tone of the rest of the article. Original moved here.

--bobstay, 6 Sep 05

'It is interesting to note that communicating with spirits using a ouiji board is very dangerous. Firstly you do not know with whom you are talking with if you recieve a communcation therefore you may end up contacting something not so pleasent that you may not have wanted to have contacted in the first place.It presents a danger to those who do not know of such things. That is not a superstition. Today there are many other possibilties for finding out about such things as "spirits" or such things as "readings" to discover something about yourself or to find answers to questions you have rather than trying something that has never had in its history any real results of any benefit. Modern day seances do not use them.'

[edit] NPOV

Looking at the history of this article, I see that POV seems to be a continuous issue. Quoting a huge chunk of text that is purely opinion is not appropriate to the article. Having a section on books seems to be problematic. There are countless books on the subject of Ouija boards. It would be impractical to list them all and it is pointless to only include a few, especially if they all seem to have a specific (in this case, negative) POV. The same holds true with websites. I think it is important to not confuse anecdotal stories with facts in this situation. I reverted to an older edit but then noticed to re-add the catergory that had been subsequently deleted since that seemed to be the only necessary edit. --Krash

You are showing your point of view when you remove anything that may reflect negatively on these boards. John Zaffis has had over 40 years experience in paranormal reseach he was trained by the most famous demonogists in the world. You should not be removing information put out by people who are experts in their fields. What is your experience with these boards? Puca
It has nothing to do with reflecting negatively. It should not be the scope of this article to condemn or condone the use of Ouija boards. Perhaps the beliefs section should be expanded into the pro/con belief sections and then include the skeptical (scientific) explanation. If there's going to be a representation from one side, there needs to be counterpoint from the other side. I'm not questioning John Zaffis's authority on the subject. However, as it is now, the last sentence of the third paragraph in the Beliefs section is redundant. The two sentences that were added to the skeptical paragraph are confusing and not relevent to the aim of the paragraph. Skeptics don't point out that anyone conjures spirits; they doubt that anyone can.
But I take biggest issue with the quotation by Martin Ebon. Why only quote him if we're going to be quoting those who are convinced that a toy is the gateway to evil? Then include Jack Chick and Malachi Martin too. And then we'd need James Randi, Michael Shermer, Martin Gardner and Penn&Teller from the skeptic side. And we'd also need to hear from some New Agers and Spiritualists who consult talking boards on a day-to-day basis like maybe Monte Farber, Amy Zerner, and Robert Murch. Perhaps listing these people as experts on the subject would be more productive than quoting them.
The books section does not seem necessary. The 2 books listed now present the subject as nothing but negative. As I said before, there are simply too many books about Ouija boards to attempt to compile a comprehensive, well-balanced list. There are resources for finding books of on the subject and I don't believe that this article should try to be one. The same is true with websites. At the very least they should be grouped according to "informational", "criticism", "positive", etc.--Krash
Krash nobody is stopping you from quoting these other people or adding books that extol the virtues of the use of ouija boards. But I think that a large portion of the internet reflects that there are very many negative things connected with using on of these "games". William Fuld himself won a court case in the early 1900's that the Ouija board was not a game but a spiritism device! So the founder of the Ouija board didn't sell them as games as Parker Brothers does. He even received the name of what to call the boards through the use of one. He is said to have consulted the board often regarding questions on his business. And by the way the book Ouija: The Most Dangerous Game, despite the title, it is not a book that just speaks negatively on the board. The quote seems perfect to me because it sums up what can happen which so many other people have also related. Instead of having to write a detailed paragraph on the dangers that are said can happen this author does so more succinctly. Puca 16:25, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Okay...let's take things one at a time here. The current edit is very good, and is addressed quite fairly. I think the Criticism section should be a subsection under Beliefs (in addition to a Skeptical subsection and a "Pro-Ouija"--I don't know what to call it--subsection). There are still some redundancies between the Beliefs and Criticism sections. Perhaps the second and third paragraphs under Beliefs should be merged with the Criticism section. The bits about skeptics claiming that cults use more advanced methods to summon demons has got to go. Can that at least be deleted?
I'm not quite sure if you're implying anything about my beliefs or if I'm just reading too deep into what you're saying. Either way, I'm not here to argue ideology. You needn't condesend, as I am fully aware that nothing is stopping me from posting here whatever I want. But my point is that with respect to this subject which has so many varying opinions/beliefs, it's important to treat these ideas as religious/spiritual viewpoints. Many people do not accept that spiritual possession even exists in the first place. That's what I've been hung up on all along.
I agree with your point on including the quotation. But I think it is difficult to read--the ellipsis (...) and the various "quoted" words/phrases do not strike me as being stylistically appropos. Whom is he quoting in these instances? It seems like a very sophomoric and poorly-edited quotatation. I don't have the book on hand to check the source and I don't feel qualified to make any adjustments to the same. I believe that paraphrasing would make more sense here.
I'm certainly not convinced that "a large portion of the internet reflects that there are very many negative things connected with using on of these 'games,'" as you put it. A Google search lands more than 10 websites before you come to the Amazon listing of "Most Dangerous...". Then there are more than 10 websites before you get to the first one that presents in a negative light. Actually, I'm having a difficult time finding many negative sites at all. It would seem that the majority of the websites simply present some facts muddled with beliefs and some "ghost-story-like" stories. The fact that there are so many anecdotal websites leads me to believe that many should be just left out. Same with books. But let me stress that as it is edited now, I have no problem with the current inclusion of the books or websites.
It was Charles Kennard, not Fuld, who named the board and it must be mentioned that the story surrounding such is purely speculative. I can't speak for Mr. Fuld and his ideas about Spiritualism, however his company did sell other toys and novelties, but oddly enough, no other paranormal items. I will say that it would not have been very good business practice for him to dismiss his best-selling item as a hoax, so it's difficult to say anything at all about his true opinions of the Ouija board or Spirituality. --Krash

Removed the phrase "A true businessman" from "Fuld sued..." Whose POV is it that a "true businessman" sues a lot of people? --Henrybaker 04:01, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

I edited the skeptical section and I think it is more or less ok now, as long as "Scientific" and "Ideomotor Effect" are mentioned then I am happy as those who want to know what science has to say about it will get a couple of clues. Unfortunately the article still has a lot of Original Research and wording which does not maintain a true NPOV or encyclopedic standard, but overall it is not that bad. There is plenty of room to expand it, but please try to stay within the encyclopedic spirit.Cgonzalezdelhoyo 00:46, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Genericized Trademark or not?

According to the article, Ouija is a genericized trademark, but under genericized trademarks on the wikipedia, it is not listed. Further,

http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Genericized_trademark

lists it as a trademark in generic usage, but it is not in their list of generic trademarks. Does anyone definitively know?

Thanks,

Joel

I am under the impression that it is technically not genericized and that Parker Bros continues to retain the trademark. However, the word is often used generically. Hopefully the current edit will re

flect this. -- Krash 14:00, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Cardboard

Few people who have investigated Ouija boards from a skeptical viewpoint accept that a piece of cardboard sold as a game can conjure spirits, evil or benevolent

Really? Is it the cardboard that makes the difference? Because I've seen plenty boards that are made out of wood. Would it be safe to say that skeptics believe these versions to be real since they're not made out of cardboard? Or is it just saying that such a cheap material couldn't possibly summon such power? Because I'd like to know the quality of material something has to be before it's possible for it to contain any sort of magical ability. You know, because it's obviously what the material is made out of instead of what it represents. --71.112.0.150 13:28, 23 May 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Links

The bottom two links are very...opinionated, to say the least! Does anyone else think they should be replaced with something a little less accusatory? --Marysunshine 01:37, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, and check out the url of the second-to-last link. My inclination would be to remove links that lead to web sites whose urls contain misspellings, but I just wandered in here out of curiosity and have no wish to start an edit war. It occurs to me that some Wikipedians may be mistaking the NPOV objective with a rather different objective wherein concepts such scientific rigor and hard evidence are deemed no more valid than anecdote and dogma. This doesn't bode well for Wikipedia's being taken seriously as a reference work. Rivertorch 07:14, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Do they Work?

  • Has anyone ever had an experience where an ouija board has worked?El benderson 00:15, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Yep, once in a party I joined some friends, to take the piss out of it, and to my surprise it said I had to be kicked out of the group :-)Cgonzalezdelhoyo 01:57, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Yes, The ouija works. I hate people who think they are a hoax.Ouijalover 17:28, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Ouija boards are very dangerous!!! Do not, I repeat, do not even try using them! I am still dealing with a haunting caused by using a stupid board. Don't be fooled by these occultists who say that there are safe ways to use them. The things contacted on the board pretend to be dead relatives, famous people and "good" spirits. But in fact, they are all malevolent. Punker57 14:10, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Punker57 is very wrong. A Ouija IS HARMLESS IF USED PROPERLY. They are only dangerous if you abuse them. And not listing to the comand of a demonic spirit will also screw you. Other than that they are harmless. Ouijalover 00:36, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

You obviously don't know what you are talking about! You are very misguided. You are talking to demons when you use the board! Of course, someone with the name Ouijalover you must be heavily invovled in the occult. For the rest of you here is a case that is similar to what happened to me. DO NOT USE OUIJA BOARDS! I was used a Ouija Board because I thought it was harmless. I would get things that joked and wrote poetry. These things that seemed so harmless and fun are called demons! Little did I know. There is no reason for anyone to use a ouija board or to dabble in the occult. There is no safe way to use a Ouija Board that is a lie! Punker57 15:14, 27 July 2006 (UTC)


I do know what i am talking about. I am a medium. I talk to the dead. I also enjoy the ouija. The only way to safely use them is to obey the orders of the demonic spirits. If you do this they wont hurt you. in my experience i have also learned that avoiding them will also get the demons to attack you. Ouijalover 02:04, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Seriously, I feel energies. The ouija boards give off strong negative energy. DO NOT trust them in the least. Usually my energy sensing isn't that wrong about natures of objects and people. - A guest who doesn't like them

[edit] Skeptical viewpoint???

Why center on "skeptics"? Someone who doesn't accept at first hand that spirits exists is an skeptic? I'd rather say he or she is "rational" or "scientific". Furthermore, "spirits, evil or benevolent" is a myth in as far as they have not been shown to exist.

Now, the strength of the statement seems to lie on that some "skeptics", who have investigated, have accepted the use of ouija to conjure spirits. This is true, but what is the value of such statement without mentioning some of these cases, as the worth of such is only as anecdotes, i.e. if a famous physicist says that God the creator exists, it is testimonial to his beliefs and attitudes but does not provide any other information.

Finally, saying "spirits, evil or benevolent" seems extremely childish in as far as spirits have not been shown to exist and are part of popular folklore.

So I would edit the sentece as follows "Few people who have investigated Ouija boards accept that it conjure spirits". However, without citing examples, and there are some good ones, it lacks any encyclopedic value.

Another deleted sentence "In some instances, users of talking boards have communicated with "ghosts" of people who were not dead, as demonstrated by the British mentalist Derren Brown in his 2004 television special Derren Brown: Séance."

This does not belong in the scientific point. Furthermore the statement is incorrect as it has not been "demonstrated" that anyone has ever talked with ghosts, not in a scientific way.

Beliefs, knowledge and scientific method. Knowledge is a very elusive concept, as Popper showed. The best we can hope for is to draw a theory and make an unexpected testable prediction. If such a prediction is correct it does not definitely prove the theory right, but it is the closests we can ever hope to get. However, thow scientist do not claim to absolut truth, they do not "belief" in their theories, rather they trust and accept them as the best understanding.

For a comprehensive approach we should reserve "belief" for faith and avoid trying to endow scientific views with such.

Please understand that science is the application of a particularly well stablished method, the scientific method, which is rather simple in as far as it rellies on testing hypothesis with observational experiments that can be reproduced by others. If anything, the strength of the scientific method lies in being free of bias.

Conclusion The ouija board has been studied scientifically and conclusions have been reached, mainly that it is the result of particular phenomenae known as the "ideomotor effect". Those who contest the evidence in a non scientific way are myth believers and their experiences and resoning cannot be taken but at face value, as anecdotical.

As a final example, there is a "historical" Jesus who posibly lived and died around 0 bc and a religous Jesus, who, depending on which faith you read, was profet or God itself. An encyclopedic article would include a section on the historical evidence as well as describing the perceptions by different faiths.

Cgonzalezdelhoyo 01:55, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] THEY'RE REAL

One day me and 2 friends and my friends mother wanted to play with a oijia board... well we did and the "spirits" name was o.u.i. we asked so many questions about who we would marry and our futures. the next day we played again and i talked to my gr8 grandmother... im not sure if it was her or not but then later that day we saw a sign on a church bulliton that said "read psalms not palms" we were all kinda weirded out by that but we couldnt resist, we played for fun just once more. turns out we contacted a bad spirit. it said "come find me" ... sence then i have never looked at a oijia board again i found out later that the last time was all my friend tho but as for the rest, there REAL

I hope you won't be silly enough to use one again. The things you get on Ouija Boards are actually demons, they are liars, they hate us and they are evil! You most certainly weren't talking to you great grandmother and I think your seeing the church flyer sayig "read psalms not palms" was a more than subtle hint for you to take that advice. There is no "safe" way of using a Ouija Board and there is no "good" reason for using one. They are real that's what makes them so DANGEROUS! :) Take care Ashley32! Dwain 20:51, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Wow, you must have a lack of time on you hands. I think we may need a tag that says this talk page is not for disussion on the subject, but fo improving the article.  Daniel_123  ► ► 15:48, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

I created a page for this discussion. --Monkey 13! 00:22, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A song called Ouija Board

As for ouija boards in popular culture: morrissey has a song called 'ouija board, ouija board' on his almub 'bona drag'

Thanks for the info. Feel free to add it to the popular culture section. (Please be sure to capitalize and use spell check.) Rivertorch 21:02, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism of Ouija Boards

I have reverted the last paragraph in the section Criticism of Ouija Boards back to include a paragraph that I wrote which was deleted by another user (see paragraph below). I feel that the POV there is a bit biased as it favors a particular religous slant. The paragraph and link citation that has been added, removed and then added again at the end of the section is this:

"Critics counter that "The Exorcist" is a work of fiction based on a case where recent research has cast serious doubt as to its actual authenticity. An in-depth investigation conducted by researcher Mark Opsasnick has revealed that the original story was in fact more than likely a complete hoax." [1].

I also deleted a link that points to a discusison of "Christian views on witchcraft" as I feel that it is not at all relevant to the discussion of Ouija boards.

I would like to have the opinion of other Wikipedia users as to whether or not you feel that my paragraph should remain in that section and if the link was unnecessary. Thanks. Labyrinth13 16:12, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

The link wasn't relevant. I restored the paragraph in question several days ago, but it was immediately deleted again without explanation by the person who deleted it in the first place. If the Blatty book or the film refers to Ouija, then it's relevant. I think it needs one more "alleged", however, and will add that now. (It's possible that the paragraph would also fit in the popular culture section. The film has become a cultural icon.) Rivertorch 17:44, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree completely that references to "The Exorcist" and Ouija boards is relevant to the discussion. My only concern was that the text there seems to imply that the case on which "The Exorcist" book and film are based was a real event and not a fictional one that new research seems to prove. Thank you for your input and help on this. Labyrinth13 17:51, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Your obvious bias is included in your paragraph, which can easily be solved by removing any mention of the Exorcist which this article is not about. But you don't want to remove the mention do you? It is obvious that you want your link in there, which of course proves you bias. Dwain 00:39, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Dwain: I would be perfectly happy with removing all mention of The Exorcist from that section (including the link as it appears already in the entry for The Exorcist). So shall we agree to do that? Please let me know by tomorrow morning. Be advised: If I don't hear from you one way or the other by then, I intend to revert the article back to include my paragraph and to place a dispute tag on the section. Thanks. Labyrinth13 01:58, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
One Last Thing: Please be advised that I also intend to start editing all of the other parts in the entire Ouija section as I feel there is too strong of an emphasis on Christianity and on how Christians feel about Ouija boards; that sort of obvious bias should not be tolerated on Wikipedia. (If we allow a Christian bias/slant to articles, then we would have to include a Muslim, Jewish, Wicca, Hindu, etc. point of view, but you can see where that would lead and I'm sure you would be offended by that). Thanks, again. Labyrinth13 01:58, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
As it stands now, there is no reference to The Exorcist. Dwain 02:06, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
That works for me. Labyrinth13 02:21, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
I have gone ahead and placed a POV-section tag on this section. Labyrinth13 15:32, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Below is one paragraph that I feel needs additional rewriting work in order to balance out the POV.
Many Christians hold the belief that using a Ouija board allows communication with demons, which is Biblically forbidden as a form of divination. Some people who claim to have been oppressed by evil spirits after using a board say that they could only get rid of these problems after Christian deliverance. Many Christians believe that no dead person's soul can be summoned, and that the only summoned spirits are demons who are trying to harm humans.
  • In the opening line, the words Many Christians has been changed from Many people, and that is an improvement on this sentence and upon consideration of that change, the words Biblically forbidden now better reflects that this is that religion's particular beliefs about Ouija boards.
  • In the second line the statement that says that some people believe that the only way to get rid of evil spirits is to seek Christian deliverance should be changed to reflect that it is primarily Christians themselves who believe that their religion is the only way to remove evil spirits caused by use of Ouija boards.
  • The last sentence would then read better after making the changes suggested in the second line above.
About the only other thing that I see at present that would justify keeping the section dispute tag in place may lie with questions as to whether or not the cited sources for this particular section might be too heavily biased in some way.
Your input and opinions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Labyrinth13 17:54, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't see "some people" as a problem, inasmuch as Christians are, by definition, "some people", and the rest of the sentence pretty well puts it into context. Changing it to "Christians themselves" would actually be more problematic because Christianity is enormously diverse and many Christians do not share the stated views.
I take issue with only two things in this section now. The first is the sentence, "Many Christians hold the belief that using a Ouija board allows communication with demons, which is Biblically forbidden as a form of divination." I am going to amend that to reflect that the last clause is correct according to certain interpretations of the Bible. As it stands now, it is hopelessly POV because not all people interpret the Bible that way. The second problem is the mention of "noted American demonologists Ed and Lorraine Warren". I believe a qualifier observing that the Warrens are considered by many people—including self-professed psychics, paranormal researchers, and Christians, as well as scientists—to be charlatans. There are ample citations for that, but I just don't have the time to find them at present (and frankly am a trifle leery of stirring that pot). Rivertorch 22:15, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Rivertorch: The part that you have amended reads very well now and in my opinion, represents a much better NPOV. Nice work.
As far as a qualifier is concerned re the mention of Ed and Lorraine in this section, you may want to check out the Criticisms section of the Warren's Wikipedia entry. I posted a similar quailfier there a few weeks ago that might be along the lines of what you are looking for. However, like you, I am leery of "stirring this pot" here, too and actually have no real problem with the way the Warren mention reads. Labyrinth13 22:36, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Further proof of bias

Reading Labyrinth13's above comments and reason as to why he wants to argue in this article that the book The Exorcist was based on "a fictional" event and claims that it is proven so sounds like he doesn't want people to be led to believe in this mumbo jumbo. But in reality he really does believe in the mumbo jumbo or Ouija boards because he is a New Ager. He states so right here on his Wikipedia page. This further exposes his bias. He wants people to believe that exorcism is a fiction and that using Ouija boards can't be harmful. Like it or not the rite of exorcism was used. The boy did exist and he did use a Ouija board and he did have problems and was taken to St. Louis. People can interpret the incident as they like but to imply that the boy, the board, and the performance of exorcism was just inveted is not just misleading it is a lie. He can argue the case and include his link under a article concerning the book or movie but to try to argue that case here in this article is totaly disingenuous! Dwain 01:03, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Dwain: I must admit that I have a hard time understanding what you are trying to say above, mostly because I feel that you don't express yourself with thoughts that run along logically enough for me at times. Sorry. But I think I can answer part of your fears here: True, I am a New Ager, and yes, I regularly use Ouija boards, but I disagree that such a fact would constitute a bias, but rather, that this actually qualifies me as one who has genuine expertise and knowledge of the subject of Ouja boards. I am sorry that you are hurt by the fact that The Exorcist case has been proven to be based on false premises and/or has been proven to have been blown out of proportion by over-zealous Christians and the media, so I suggest that we just agree to remove all reference to it and be done with it (provided that no one else has a problem, of course). Thanks. Labyrinth13 01:57, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, I have used a ouija board too so conversely if this would make you some sort of expert on its use then it should make me an expert as well, unfortunately our experiences aren't relevent because they would constitute "original research" which is not allowed here at Wikipedia. And I am not hurt by that article which you take as some sort of proof. I read the article some years ago and although some of the research is comendable he proves nothing, he gives his opinion of what happened. I love your rant against Christianity you obviously feel threatened by it. Dwain 02:19, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, I disagree with your assessment of the Opsasnick article because a careful reading shows that the Exorcist case was almost 99.9 percent fraud. The boy in the case was known by both friends and neighbors to have been a hoaxer. (The primary people convinced that demons were involved were the exorcists themselves and they can hardly be thought of as impartial sources). But I can see how it threatens your personal beliefs about the case and so we can just agree to disagree and I will leave you to your fears. FYI: I don't feel threatened by any religion, but I do dislike those followers of religions who try to force their religious beliefs on others. As mentioned, I plan to take a hard look at the whole Ouija board article in the coming days and plan to take steps to remove as much of the religious bias as I can. I'm glad we could work this out together and thanks. Labyrinth13 02:30, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
According to William Peter Blatty, the author of The Exorcist, the book was inspired by events that apparently took place in 1949 involving a supposed possession and exorcism—it was not based on those events and is a complete work of fiction. As to what exactly happened in 1949, that is a matter of opinion and cannot (and should not) be resolved on any Talk page (not even the Exorcist one). Dwain seems correct in drawing a distinction between the events of the book/film and the events that inspired the book/film. As I suggested earlier, Labyrinth's paragraph, perhaps with a judicious edit or two to make that distinction clear, seems appropriate for inclusion in the Popular Culture section of the article. Most importantly, a Wikipedia editor's religious or spiritual beliefs should be irrelevant to the editing process, and citing them as the explanation for perceived bias can only constitute a gratuitous personalization of the argument. Bias on certain issues cuts both ways, but decently NPOV articles are possible if all parties recognize their own biases and stick to debating the content itself, not why someone wrote it. Rivertorch 04:29, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Rivertorch - Thanks for your input above. Pitchka and I seem to have reached an agreement here on taking the paragraph out of the Ouija article, but if you want to clean it up and place it elsewhere, please feel free to do so. You wrote, a Wikipedia editor's religious or spiritual beliefs should be irrelevant to the editing process, and citing them as the explanation for perceived bias can only constitute a gratuitous personalization of the argument. I totally agree with that statement and I feel that I honestly try to not insert my own beliefs into any Wikipedia article. However, in some of my only edits so far, I have tried to add balance to sections where I see a completely one-sided statement. In the Ouija article now, I see what I personally believe is a strong slant toward a fundamentalist Christian view of why Ouija boards are bad and bad for you! As a result, I am going to suggest here that someone place a "dispute" tag on the "Criticism of Ouija boards" section until such time as the article is rewritten and cleaned up. Your thoughts would be appreciated, as would your advice to a relative newbie about how I go about placing the section into dispute. Thank you. Labyrinth13 13:28, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Christian critics

Everything in the section of criticism of the ouija board can be sourced and is accurate. So far there is only one editor who has a major problem with the section. He complains because Christians are mentioned. I have added the views of occultists/psychics, paranormal researchers/demonologists, doctors, a clergy member and a person of Jewish ancestry.

His apparent bigotry of anything Christian and what critics who may happen to be Christian is just plain misguided. Fortunately he seems to be in the minority. The section as it stands now has many more criticisms from a variety of people with different points of view and outlooks. I will defend this section because it is the best sourced section in the whole article and because it is not biased or point of view. I would welcome the beliefs of what Muslims, Hindus, American Indians believe about the Ouija board if such information could be found and if it is relevent to the article at hand.

The problem is not with this section but with Labyrinth13's intorence and distaste for Christianity, unfortunately the quotes and information are from qualified people whether Christian or not. Dwain 17:33, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I feel that your posting of this sort of message is simply a mean-spirited, personal attack on me and that it should be removed as inappropriate.
I have read your latest changes to the section in question and actually believe that you have done a good job with the rewrite and with only minor exceptions, now feel that the dispute tag should be considered for removal.
I understand that you have strong feelings about Christianity and like to promote Christian views and I applaud you for standing by your beliefs. However, that you infer a bigotry on my part simply because I question your neutrality is untrue, unfair, and completely unnecessary in a such a forum as this. (My complaint about your work was not simply that Christians were mentioned, but rather that you often seemed to be promoting singular ideas about Christianity in relation to Ouija board use. I was and am simply trying to correct what I saw as seeming bias on your part and from what I can tell, you have managed to do that and the article now better reflects the neutral standards that Wikipedia expects. For that I applaud your efforts.
But while I appreciate you doing the work that you have done so far, I am very dissappointed to see that you feel you need to attack me personally. Labyrinth13 18:52, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
I am not the one who started suggesting personal bias you did when you complained about me on your talk page to another Wikipedian. You are the one who has been labeling me and making statements that I'm "hurt" and suggesting that the criticism section reflects fudamental Christian writing.
You have obviously been very disturbed about Christianity for some reason. You accuse me of trying to promote my beliefs here on this article which is false. I'm simply adding what I believe to be valid information into the article I and added criticism that I was able to find not by peoples beliefs or religious makeup.
So before you act the victim here you have to remember that you cast the first stone at me on your talk page. I am simply responding to what you have had to say about me and about the article and you cannot deny that your opposition to Christianity is what is motivating your problem with that section. My motivation is not to put a Christian view across in relation to Ouija board use. My motivation is to find relative and accurate criticism by people who have had dealings with Ouija boards. I am not part of some vast Christian conspiracy. Dwain 20:00, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I am sorry that you were offended by my casual comment about you (which for the record, I deny completely was anywhere near like what you are implying above; I simply commented that I could tell you were very opinionated about your Christian beliefs. I now understand by your reactions that this is probably an area in which you are very sensitive to any sort of criticism). Accordingly, I have asked a mediator to step in. Labyrinth13 20:07, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I would like to request that both parties please desist from this line of conversation; speculating on other editors' beliefs or tolerance thereof has no real bearing on this article. In my opinion, information about the Christian perspective on the subject should be included (where sourced and verifiable), and, in order to combat systemic bias, perhaps concerned individuals can do research on what other religious traditions have to say on the subject. However, this particular line of discussion is inappropriate and in places violates WP:CIVIL. Comment on the content, not the contributor. If anyone has any questions, please feel free to contact me on my talk page. Thank you. -- Merope 20:16, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Thank you for your opinion and assistance. Labyrinth13 20:24, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Critics" - need better word

I think some confusion may arise from the word "critic" as used in this article. It could be understood as meaning "disbeliever" when in fact it is being used to mean "believer who issues a warning". I don't have a good replacement yet, but surely there is one out there. Certainly I understand there could be a knee-jerk reaction to use the label "fundamentalst christian", but I'm sure it's possible to be a "believer who issues a warning", regarding the ouija, without being a "fundamentalist christian". Zuytdorp Survivor 01:35, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Hmm "Condemn" seems a useful word, and to me it implies belief. Zuytdorp Survivor 02:16, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Technology

Someone might want to add something on electronic versions of the Ouija. I reall that back in the mid-80s, there was a Macintosh Ouija called Gypsy- the mouse mounted onto a planchette on casters and the board was on the screen. Now there is a use of the iPod [2]. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 21:21, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

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