Talk:Order of the British Empire

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This article is part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Orders, Decorations, and Medals, a collaborative effort to improve, organise, and standardise Wikipedia's coverage of national honours systems. For guidelines and a participants list see the project page. You can discuss the project at its talk page

A Wikipedian removed Order of the British Empire from the good article list. There are suggestions below for improving areas to satisfy the good article criteria. Once the objections are addressed, renominate the article as a good article. If you disagree with the objections, you can seek a review. Removal date: September 14, 2006

This article has been cited as a source by LinuxWorld in their article "Arise, Sir Bill" at [1]. See Wikipedia:Wikipedia as a press source 2005#March 1-10 for details.

This article has been cited as a source by Airbus in their article "Airbus CEO Knighted by Queen" at [2]. See Wikipedia:Wikipedia as a press source 2004#April 2004 (28 articles) for details.

Contents 1 Reagan? 2 Gravitational Beam Emmitter 3 List(s) of recipients? 4 Redirect 5 Chapel 6 Sir == KBE? 7 Knight Commander of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire 8 Conflicts 9 Nomination process ? 10 Order of the British Empire Medals 11 When do you receive the title? 12 Image tagging 13 Other orders? 14 Delisted GA 15 Repeal 16 Lists of recipients

[edit] Reagan?

I seem to remember Thatcher giving Reagan one of these (in which case he should certainly be added) but I cannot find details. Perhaps I am mistaken, or can someone else find it? --BozMo|talk 11:17, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Reagan was made a Knight Grand Cross of the Order of the Bath (GCB) (and is listed on that page). The Queen gives all honours incidentally, even if the list is compiled by the government. -- Necrothesp 22:35, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Gravitational Beam Emmitter

Do we really need this? It would be better to move that section to the post-nominals page.

Yes we need this -- it is an expantion of anything that would be listed on the post-nominal letters page.

[edit] List(s) of recipients?

The article lists some "foreign" recipients. We should list at least a comparable number of Commonwealth recipients; if or when we do, we should have a clear link from this article (unless they are included in it, which is probably not desirable in the long term because a separate list of them could be of more value to an encyclopedia than, say, the list of New Zealand companies). Robin Patterson 06:02, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC) -Agreed. Penwhale

[edit] Redirect

I made the redirect from GBE to this page into a disambiguation page for GBE and Gbe languages. strangeloop 11:46, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)

• Never mind, I reverted because I discovered I just had to create a 'Gbe' page with a redirect to Gbe languages to stop 'Gbe' from redirecting to 'GBE' and to here.

[edit] Chapel

The material about stalls and helms (which is used in most other articles on the British orders of chivalry, almost verbatim) is not correct in this case - there are no crests displayed in the OBE chapel - MWNN

Honest - I've been there! - MWNN

Ah, sorry about that.

James F. (talk) 23:46, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)

A reliable and scholarly work on the British history, Never Had It So Good by Dominic Sanbrook, says that the chapel was dedicated in 1960, not 1969. I changed the date in the article yesterday. Mapple 13:12, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Sir == KBE?

I do know that Paul McCartney, MBE was knighted; does that make him a KBE? Is it possible to be knighted without changing rank in the Order?

I ask this because David Gilmour is a CBE (higher in 'seniority'), but he is not referred to as Sir David Gilmour.

Order of the British Empire states that only KBEs may use the 'Sir'/'Dame' prefix.

Just curious...

--Joshk 04:14, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Sir Paul McCartney, MBE, is a Knight Bachelor, which means that he was knighted without being given appointed to one of the knightly grades in any of the Orders of Chivalry (such as the Order of the British Empire). Being made a Knight Bachelor is the lowest form of knighthood - he would have had to have impressed the Government even more to have been made a KBE or a GBE (or a knight in one of the other Orders). Many people are knighted without being members of any Orders, and are thus known simply as Sir John Smith, with no post-nominal letters at all. Hope this helps. Proteus (Talk) 10:27, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Is this the same case with Sir Elton John? From what I've read, he's a CBE, but he was also knighted. Thanks, --JT 14:30, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

The Wikipedia article says KBE but this may not be correct. It's unusual for British citizens resident in the UK to obtain a KBE as opposed to Knight Bachelor. Another question mark lies over whether James Molyneaux is really a KBE or a Knight Bachelor JAJ 23:07, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Sir Elton John CBE is a Knight Bachelor. See the New Years Honours list 1998 here.

Lord Molyneaux of Killead is a KBE. See his Lords introduction here. JRawle (Talk) 17:11, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Knight Commander of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire

According to [3], that's the title Bill Gates will be getting. Should there be a redirect page at Knight Commander of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire? Commander of the Order of the British Empire is already a redirect page to here. (By the way, are those two the same thing?)--Tokek 00:41, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

No, KBE is the grade above CBE. If Gates was a subject of the Queen then he'd be able to call himself "Sir Bill", whereas a CBE couldn't (since it's not a knighthood). KBE is the usual honour granted to foreigners getting honorary knighthoods. -- Necrothesp 01:36, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Yes, Tokey, that's right, "Most Excellent Order of the British Empire" is often shortened to "Order of the British Empire", but they're one and the same thing.

At your suggestion, I made a few redirects to here:

• GBE
  • Knight Grand Cross of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire
  • Dame Grand Cross of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire
  • Knight Grand Cross of the Order of the British Empire
  • Dame Grand Cross of the Order of the British Empire
• KBE/DBE
  • Knight Commander of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire
  • Dame Commander of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire
  • Knight Commander of the Order of the British Empire
  • Dame Commander of the Order of the British Empire
• CBE
  • Commander of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire
• OBE
  • Officer of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire
• MBE
  • Member of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire

... which is enough for the time being, I feel.

James F. (talk) 02:14, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Conflicts

Okay, Bill Gates is an honorary KBE. So, can he or can he not use the post-nominal abbreviations? This is very confusing. Cleanups? Penwhale 02:19, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Yes, he can use the post-nominal letters. No, he can't use the pre-nominal "Sir". He is Bill Gates KBE. It says that in the article, doesn't it? -- Necrothesp 11:02, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Since Bill Gates is not a citizen of the UK nor of the British Commonwealth, theoretically he can not be called "Sir Bill" (or Sir William). -Kbot

Note that citizens of Commonwealth countries that do not recognise Queen Elizabeth II as Head of State (most of them) are also not entitled to use the "Sir" or "Dame". -- Necrothesp 02:46, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Nomination process ?

I looked on this page because I was wondering what the nomination process was like and how it is decided who will be made part of the Order. Where can I find info on this Dowew 21:24, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Order of the British Empire Medals

R. Eaton asked the following question on the Wikipedia:Reference desk/Miscellaneous page: are the medals made of pure gold and silver or are they only plated in gold and silver ?

If you know that answer could you please provide an answer on that page and put verifiable information in the article. Thanks. Capitalistroadster 05:13, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] When do you receive the title?

When do does the person receiving the title get to use it. Is it from the day the award is announced or when the Queen confers it josh 07:44, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

The former. (It used to be that the letters could be used immediately but "Sir" could only be used after the accolade, but this proved too confusing for some and they changed it so both could be used as soon as the appointment was announced.) Proteus (Talk) 10:18, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for that. The reason I asked was that I've just confirmed that Alfred Hitchcock got a full knighthood and not an honourary one as the article said. However, there is a curious entry in the London Gazette several months after his death confirming that his wife gets all the privliges of a knight. Was this 1980 before the change or just a bit of protocol?

The change was in 1971, so I'd imagine it was just protocol, ensuring that there was absolutely no doubt about Lady Hitchcock's status. Proteus (Talk) 12:25, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Cheers. josh 17:24, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Image tagging

I have reviewed this article and agreed that it is a Good Article. I was lenient on the image tagging criteria, but the second image does need its tag reviewing. —Whouk (talk) 19:14, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Other orders?

The article mentions that this order is "the most junior of the British orders of chivalry". What does that mean? I was completely unaware that there were other orders, but the word "junior" here is unclear: does it mean it's the youngest, or the one with the least gravitas? Maerk 10:13, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

There's a carefully-defined (but highly arcane) order of precedence in the higher echelons of British society, starting with the Sovereign at the top, followed by the Prince of Wales, various other members of the royal family, the Archbishop of Canterbury, the Lord Chancellor, the Archbishop of York, certain other officers (including the Prime Minister), peers (Dukes, then Marquesses, then Earls, Viscounts and Barons), and so on (Bishops rank just above Barons), then Baronets, Knights of orders of chivalry (of which the Garter is the most senior, followed by the Thistle, and the British Empire the most junior), then Knights Bachelor, after which it gets a bit hazy. Anyway, the point is that holders of a particular grade in the Order of the British Empire rank below holders of an equivalent grade (but above holders of lower grades) in the other UK orders of chivalry. Nicholas Jackson 22:44, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Delisted GA

Three references just isn't enough for this to be well-reference folks, it's a longish article, there should be much more here. Surely this entire thing wasn't gleaned from just those few references.... Homestarmy 17:12, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Repeal

Is it possible to repeal an appointment to this order? I see Vidkun Quisling was CBE...Inge 13:46, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Most (if not all) of the British orders have provisions for revoking someone's membership of the order. According to The Times,13 June 1940, reporting the proceedings of the House of Commons the previous day, Quisling was stripped of his CBE. The relevant text is as follows:

Mr Mander (Wolverhampton E., L.) asked the Undersecretary for Foreign Affairs the reasons for and the date on which Major Quisling was made a Commander of the Order of the British Empire, and whether he still remained a member.

Mr Butler (Saffron Walden, U.)— Captain Vidkun Quisling was appointed to be an honorary Commander of the Order of the British Empire — (laughter) — on November 22, 1929 in recognition of services rendered to his Majesty's government in connexion with the protection of British interests in the Soviet Union while serving on the staff of the Norwegian Legation in Moscow. He is no longer a member of the Order. (Cheers)

Mr Mander — When was this notorious traitor to his own country and the Allied cause removed from the Order?

Mr Butler — Very recently. (Laughter)

--Dr pda 22:42, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you very much! I'll add this to the VQ article. Do you have a link or other reference in addition to the Times? Inge 09:23, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, no. The online archive of the Times I have access to is subscription-only. I had a quick look in the London Gazette for an official notice but couldn't find one. Hansard could be quoted directly I guess if you could get hold of it. --Dr pda 17:09, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lists of recipients

Hello. I am writing an article on Sir George Bailey Sansom, who I know to have been knighted in 1935, but I have no idea which rank he was - OBE, KBE, Knight Commander, Knight Officer, whathaveyou. Is there any way to find this out, outside of biographical sources, such as a complete list of all recipients online somewhere? Thanks. LordAmeth 19:53, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

The official announcements of British honours are published in The London Gazette, which can be searched online at [4] (although the search function is rather idiosyncratic, and often doesn't give you a result even when you specify a full name and the exact edition you know the notice to be in, probably because it uses OCR on scanned versions of printed editions). To answer your question, Sir George Sansom was created a Knight Commander of the Order of St Michael and St George (KCMG) on 3 June 1935 (Supplement to the Gazette of 31 May 1935, published 3 June 1935, p8, online version here.) He was previously appointed CMG (probably sometime between 1925 and 1930, but the search is not giving me the appropriate entry). Dr pda 22:23, 7 December 2006 (UTC)