Talk:Orange (word)

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This page has been m:Transwikied to Wiktionary. The article has content that may be useful at WP's sister project, Wiktionary (http://en.wiktionary.org). Therefore the article can be found at either Wiktionary:Transwiki:Orange (word) or Wiktionary:Orange (word) Note: This means that the article has been copied to the Wiktionary Transwiki namespace for evaluation and formatting. It does not mean that the article is in the Wiktionary main namespace, or that it has been removed from Wikipedia's. Furthermore, the Wikitionarians might delete the article from Wiktionary if they do not find it to be approprate for the Wikitionary.

I condensed the etymology section from various sources, but I'm no linguist, and terms and/or explanations may be off. Transliterations may be incorrect, and native forms are missing in any case.

One known source I couldn't access personally at the time of writing was John McPhee's book Oranges. I took a chance by relying on third-hand information (namely a Usenet post that paraphrases from the book—it cites the page, so there's a good chance it manages to get it right :-). The information was too good to leave out, so I'm counting on the wiki process to confirm or reject it.

Oh, and someone tell me what the OED has to say on this!

Finally, if anyone even thinks about moving this wholesale to Wiktionary... then we're gonna have a lot to talk about. :-) JRM 03:55, 2004 Dec 5 (UTC)

Contents 1 Eequor's revisions 2 What is pink?? 3 Transwiki? 4 Rhyme with Orange 5 Another rhyme 6 Borange 7 Contradiction: the color or the fruit? 8 Popular Rapper Marshall Mathers (a.k.a. Eminem) rhymes oranges with syringes and hinges. 9 Two Syllable Rhymes 10 Orange Rhymes

[edit] Eequor's revisions

Eequor, I disagree with most of your edits. For comparison, the original:

In either case, the initial n was dropped before the word entered English, either from un narancio to un arancio (Italian) or une narenge to une arenge (French), through assimilation of the doubled consonant.

The French shift from arenge to orenge may have been under the influence of or "gold"—in reference to the color of oranges—or the name of Orange, France, a major distribution point of oranges to northern regions.

After revision:

In any case, the initial n was lost before the word entered English; this may have been due to similarity with Latin aurum (gold; or in French), as gold has an orange color.

Alternatively, the French shift may have been in reference to Orange, France, a major distribution point of oranges to northern regions.

As far as the "specious claim" remark goes (in reference to the dropped "n"): fair enough, as the claim stood; only one source mentions this, only for French, and prefixes it with "probable". (Many other sources mention it as well, but none of these seem original, and mentioning an English "norange" is a sure sign of la-la land. I'd really like some more sources, of course.)

That's still no reason to eliminate it wholesale; the less specific claim that the initial n might have been dropped under the influence of a redivision of the word prefixed with an indefinite article (be it in French or Italian or whatever language as long as it's not English) could be reinstated. (And from the wording of this, you can see why I spelled this out, even if it was overspecific. :-) JRM 21:38, 2004 Dec 7 (UTC)

I'm concerned by the idea that assimilation with an indefinite article might lead to an actual change in the noun in all contexts. The following argument does not make sense:

1. The article a becomes an before vowels.
2. An ends in n.
3. The original word nāraṅgaḥ begins with n.
4. In English, a singular orange is an orange or one orange.
5. Therefore, orange is derived from a norange; the consonant was absorbed by the article because an orange is equally grammatical.

Whoa there. You're completely misreading things. The argument actually goes like this:

1. The original word nāraṅgaḥ begins with n.
2. In French (after borrowing through various sources) a singular orange is "une norenge".
3. "Une norenge" sounds identical to "une orenge".
4. Therefore, it is possible that the initial n disappeared through misdivision of the phrase "une norenge": people heard "une orenge" instead, and eventually started writing it this way. (Spelling was still highly irregular in the 14th century, so this would not have been an obstacle.)

Note that the same doesn't hold for the definite article—I think, because I'm not an expert on Old French. At least in modern French it doesn't: "l'orange" ("the orange") and "les oranges" (the oranges)" are not easily confused with "le norange" and "les noranges" (and even the indefinite "des oranges", unqualified "oranges", is not like "des noranges"). Without a definite reference on Old French, however, I can't in good faith add this to the article—maybe it did sound similar in Old French even for the definite articles, what do I know?

However, English doesn't come into play anywhere. The original clearly states that the "n" disappeared before the word entered English—if this is not clear enough (maybe it evokes images of a committee reshaping the word before it's fit to enter English, my mistake :-) it should be reformulated. English never had a word "norange", and that "a" becomes "an" is a quirk of the English indefinite article that has nothing to do with French. I understand your confusion, because many publicly available "explanations" mislead their readers by completely glossing over this, and they should all be shot on sight. In fact, it's probably a good idea to explicitly mention why this is poppycock: we borrowed the word from Old French, and the n was definitely gone (for whatever reason) before the English borrowing. "A norange" must be considered a fanciful and anachronistic analogy, used so readers aren't confused by all those "weird foreign languages". JRM 10:59, 2004 Dec 8 (UTC)

Besides, our article about consonant assimilation states that assimilation usually produces a single word from a prefix and a root. Notwithstanding that an is not a prefix, one would expect both consonants to remain, but used in a single word: annorange. --[[User:Eequor|ᓛᖁᑐ]] 23:47, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It's my fault that I mentioned assimilation. This reference was invented by me because I couldn't find a more specific article. I shouldn't have done that. The source actually talks about metanalysis (this is the misdivision I spoke about), but this seems to be a very specialist term [1] invented by one linguist (Otto Jespersen—don't bother, the article doesn't mention it). Even "misdivision" doesn't seem to be used in this meaning. I don't know personally if the phenomenon occurs enough to have its own name in linguistics and if so, what it is.

Finally, note that even if you or I think the claim is completely bogus (but as I said, you're probably misreading the original claim), this doesn't matter. If an external source claims it, we can just report "source X claims this" and move on. (I fully agree that that's what I should have done in the first place.) In fact, we cannot even add "we think this is codswallop" because that's original research. We can, of course, quote facts and sources that refute the alleged codswallop, for example by extracting info from assimilation—but in this case that doesn't work, because I carelessly invented that reference myself). If you are actually a linguist, I'm willing to take you as a credible source and add "[Eequor's real name], a linguist of [institution], disagrees and argues that..." (provided you put a reference up outside the article, of course.) JRM 10:59, 2004 Dec 8 (UTC)

Furthermore, your edits now say that the Latin "aurum" was involved. Cite your sources, please—I will accept French "or" or Italian "oro" (although Italian doesn't seem to be mentioned explicitly in the sources) but Latin is a bridge too far without attribution. Of course these words both derive from "aurum", but that's neither here nor there: no source mentions Latin directly, and dragging it in seems an anachronistic way of summarizing.

And according to gold, gold does not "have an orange color"—rather, oranges may have been seen as golden, which is not quite the same thing. (I'm just saying this because the average reader is likely to go "What? Gold is orange?" even though colors are, of course, quite subjective and imprecise.) JRM 21:38, 2004 Dec 7 (UTC)

Gold is actually fairly reddish; pity we haven't had an image which actually shows the color of gold (it isn't as dull as the gold article would have one believe). Oranges are also not naturally as vivid orange as orange suggests; nowadays they're usually dyed orange. See at right. --[[User:Eequor|ᓛᖁᑐ]] 23:47, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Ooh, pretty pictures! :-) I completely agree, and I didn't mean to imply that gold cannot be considered orange—merely that this is misleading to readers. The original only stated that "gold" referred to the color of oranges; the new version boldly states that gold has an orange color. True or not, that's a paraphrase bordering on personal opinion (colors are subjective); the claim that "gold" was used in reference to the color is more neutral. People can (should) be trusted to infer for themselves that the color of gold and the color of oranges must have been considered a close match for this influence—and whether they consider that good enough to substantiate the claim. We can't simply say "'gold' may have done it, because, well, you know, gold is orangey". (I would agree that I'm splitting hairs here, though. :-) JRM 10:59, 2004 Dec 8 (UTC)

I'd like to thank you for your comments, by the way; they're invaluable in determining what's wrong and unclear with what I say. I sincerely hope this article can evolve into an authoritative source for this tricky etymology. I should really look to see if we have a directory of Wikipedians skilled in linguistics for copyediting, BTW—any idea if such a thing exists? JRM 10:59, 2004 Dec 8 (UTC)

The "French shift" now suddenly refers to the dropping of the initial "n", it seems, and no longer to the vowel shift. Or perhaps both—it's not at all clear. For clarity: both sources only mentions the "or" and "Orange" influences as reasons for the shifting vowel, not the dropping of the "n". Incidentally, what does it mean for the shift to be "in reference to" the village name? JRM 21:38, 2004 Dec 7 (UTC)

Oops, right. I hadn't meant to remove "from arenge to orenge". The influence of aurum is suggested by my dictionary, but perhaps I've misread. --[[User:Eequor|ᓛᖁᑐ]] 23:47, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This seems like an inordinate amount of words to spill over two simple paragraphs, so I hope you can suffer my verbosity with no ill effects. :-) Because most of this would constitute reverting, I prefer to spell it all out on the talk page first and see what you think. JRM 21:38, 2004 Dec 7 (UTC)

[edit] What is pink??

Has anyone memorized the children's poem "What is pink??" It talks about rhyming with color words and it appears to be going by the rule at the end of the poem that no word to be thought of rhymes with orange. Any comments on this being mentioned in this article because it seems related?? Georgia guy 01:25, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Done! JRM 13:05, 2005 Mar 12 (UTC)

[edit] Transwiki?

I've put on the /move to wikt/ tag, but I'm not sure what to do with this. Probably someone more knowledgeable about wikt should decide. Presently the article is lengthy, but it discusses only etymology, rhyming, and usage of the word in literature. Radiant_* 11:55, May 25, 2005 (UTC)

• Presumably the "use in popular culture" and "controversy" sections will never get written... :-) This is a tough call, really. I can see this going into a really extensive dictionary, but Wiktionary arguably isn't one (yet), and apparently out of philosophy, not because people are lazy. Is this encyclopedic? I really don't know. Traditional encyclopedias wouldn't have this, but then, they wouldn't have characteristics of common wasps and bees either, and I wouldn't exclude that from Wikipedia. I can't tell, really. The most appropriate place for this at the moment seems to be Wikipedia—if only to answer the burning question "was the color named after the fruit or the other way around" in detail without cluttering orange (fruit) or orange (color), and to document the more notable attempts at rhyming this famously unrhymable word. It could end up in Wiktionary in some modified form, but I don't see that happening without losing information. JRM · Talk 13:28, 2005 May 25 (UTC)
  • really extensive dictionary [...]Wiktionary arguably isn't one (yet), [...] apparently out of philosophy — If "all words of all languages" (as per the Wiktionary main page) doesn't qualify as a really extensive philosophy, then your standard of "really extensive" is so exclusionary that it excludes practically everything. I suspect the more probable case, however, that your comments on the philosophy of Wiktionary are based upon not actually knowing what that philosophy is. The most appropriate place for this at the moment seems to be Wikipedia—if only to answer the burning question ... — Wrong. Answering the burning questions of the true etymologies of words is exactly what a dictionary, and hence Wiktionary, is for. You're probably labouring under another misapprehension about Wiktionary, namely that its etymologies read like etymologies in paper dictionaries. That too is false, of course. Wiktionary isn't paper, either. Wiktionary etymologies can be quite extensive. They can discuss etymological disputes (such as at Wiktionary:chav) and multiple etymologies (such as at Wiktionary:jock). It could end up in Wiktionary in some modified form, but I don't see that happening without losing information. — Again, this appears to be simply ignorance of Wiktionary. The "Etymology" section of this article could have been written almost as-is in an "Etymology" section in Wiktionary:orange, right from the start. (Wiktionary likes detailed, sourced, etymologies.) Writing the etymology of a word in the encyclopaedia instead of in the dictionary is Lost Lexicography. document the more notable attempts at rhyming this famously unrhymable word — And that is the nugget of encyclopaedia content that is left behind. It's the bit that is not about the word orange, but is about the practice of writing poetry, and of the difficulty and history of one particular rhyme. If there were a rhyming the English word "orange" article in Wikipedia, Wiktionary:Rhymes:English:-ɒrɪnʒ (or whatever) could interwiki link to it, and the interwiki web could be built yet further. Uncle G 15:50, 2005 May 25 (UTC)

    Re ignorance: of course. Expressing ignorance clearly is most helpful in rousing those who can dispel it. I'm no Wiktionary buff. If you think this could be successfully merged with the Wiktionary entry, go for it! JRM · Talk 17:03, 2005 May 25 (UTC)

[edit] Rhyme with Orange

I am no linguist, but I feel that the word 'lozenge' rhymes reasonably with orange. Much better than 'door-hinge', and so definitely worth a mention.

Hi, I just now read this:

"In Tamil 'Aru' means Six and 'Anju' means seven, together counts 11 the number of digits inside orange fruits."

I'm afraid I don't understand the significance of this statement at all in the context.. Could anyone explain what I am missing? Regards, Codex Sinaiticus 21:01, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

Try saying the words after each other: "aru-anju", "orange". Tamil is a Dravidian language, and this little tidbit (I don't know if its true or significant, mind you) does fit in with speculation of a Dravidian origin of the word. But I stress that I have no idea if this is just a silly coincidence or a linguistically significant fact. Folk etymology is notoriously unreliable and spurious. We could remove it pending verification. JRM · Talk 21:13, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

Well, actually I had guessed that much, but it is the 6+7=11 part I have trouble figuring... What's that all about??? Codex Sinaiticus 23:38, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

It's base 12 arithmetic: 6₁₂ + 7₁₂ = 11₁₂. You see, oranges typically have 12 parts so...

OK, so that's nonsense and I feel stupid for not actually having added the numbers. You're right, I have no idea what this is supposed to be getting at. Either someone can't count or they're referring to meaningless numbers. We should probably remove this until someone can be bothered to explain this, if at all. JRM · Talk 00:04, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

I too have contended for some time that 'lozenge' is a perfectly adequate rhyming word for 'orange' and submit this as an example Limerick wot I wrote:

There once was a man from Land's End

Who sucked on a Fisherman's Friend

It taste not of orange

This strong minty lozenge

And his mate didn't appreciate the innuendo either.

86.142.71.15 13:07, 21 May 2006 (UTC)Lee Noble

[edit] Another rhyme

Don't spores sometimes come in a sporange? DS 00:50, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

how about syringe 24.44.48.72 00:21, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Borange

Borange actually means "the best thing ever" [2] (~15:00) 203.132.66.72 03:22, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

They appear to have changed their minds (~36:00 in the same recording), so much for that... 203.132.66.72 03:31, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Contradiction: the color or the fruit?

The article makes a stark contradiction to itself that we must resolve. At the beginning the article states, "Interestingly, the color was referred to (in Old English, before the English-speaking world was exposed to the fruit" whereas later in the article it claims, "The name of the color is derived from the fruit." So which is it? Did orange refer to the color first or did orange refer to the fruit first? -- Noetic Sage 02:50, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Popular Rapper Marshall Mathers (a.k.a. Eminem) rhymes oranges with syringes and hinges.

The popular rapper Marshall Mathers (a.k.a. Eminem) rhymes oranges with syringes and hinges in his song 'business' on the album 'The Eminem Show' (Aftermath/Interscope 2002). Although it could be debated that both are slant rhymes and not true rhymes, I believe Eminem's lyrics are well developed and do, in fact, rhyme:

Set to blow college dormroom doors off the hinges oranges, peach, pears, plums, syringes (*chainsaw sound*} VROOM VROOM! Yeah, here I come I'm inches, away from you, dear fear none Hip-Hop is in a state of nine-one-one so..

You should listen to the song before deciding for yourself.

Tom:141.156.7.131 18:08, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Two Syllable Rhymes

Most of the rhymes for orange here are built on a two syllable pronounciation. They don't work for those who pronounce "orange" in one syllable /ornZ/, such as myself.

[edit] Orange Rhymes

"Two words are rhymes if they are stressed on the same syllable, counting from the end of the words, and are pronounced identically from the vowel in their stressed syllable to the end."

Isn't the stress in the word orange the first syllable? or is stressed, and the vowel in or is o, so that would mean most of those rhymes aren't valid. I do however agree that orange and door hinge seem to rhyme.