Talk:Opium Wars

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[edit] David Sassoon, the key figure in the Opium War, deserves a place in the main article

Who is David Sassoon?

David Sassoon is the source of the problem. If you trace the Opium War back to one person, one origin, one beginning, the result would be David Sassoon. In effect, the British army was serving as David Sassoon's mercenaries in the Opium War. It was the Sassoon family that started and ultimately benefited from the war. The entire Sassoon family's wealth and power were built from its opium monopoly in China. Therefore, you can't really talk about the Opium War without mentioning David Sassoon.

[edit] Europe profited as well from the trade of opium. How did America, at the time, profit from this trade?

From laurelbush1952@hotmail.com (Laurel Bush, 16 Kennedy Terrace, UK, KW14 5BN) 2005 January 21st

Im finding no reason for the 1729 Chinese prohibition of opium. Was the official reason then that given in the 1810 decree? And is there evidence from 1729 of what we might now recognise as a distinction between medical and recreational use? Was there licensing of select professions (eg 'doctors') to supply opium?

Was China the first country to legislate against opium use? Is China the birth place of modern drug control legislation?


[edit] Regarding the External Link in this article

The external link in this article leads to an essay that is extremely biased, comparing the British to Nazis and so forth. The spirit of the Wiki ethos would seem to militate against such inflammatory language.

Would you mind signing your posts with four tildes? You mean the www.wsu.edu link? It does seem a little extreme but this is in fact a fairly mainstream position among older sorts of scholars. John King Fairbank referred to it as possible the greatest and sustained crime against humanity. So if it is extreme (and I think it is) it is not exactly non-NPOV. Lao Wai 11:26, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for the response. This post should have a proper signature. Regarding the www.wsu.edu link, its basic argument that the opium trade represented a terrible and criminal enterprise is pretty much acknowledged fact. What struck me as a questionnable value statement was the paragraph attempting to compare this tragedy with the crimes of the Nazis. The language and content is inflammatory, rather than educational or informative. Rather than shedding light on the event in question, it just draws attention to the outrage of the writer. Your reference to Fairbank is a good example of how to raise the subject of the scale of the tragedy, as it quotes a notable scholar in way designed to further the debate. Thanks again...--Tom-Jar 16:43, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm wondering how "over two thousand" chests weighing 140 lb each add up

Tom-jar, not sure what you'd classify the opium wars as, if not a crime against humanity. The whole point of the enterprise was to produce, distribute and profit from opium. The subjugation of an entire race was its point and the Chinese were looked upon, by the British and their friend Sassoon, as subhuman worker ants. Try to imagine the pain of a child addict who, once addicted to cheap heroin, would have to suddenly earn much more money for its fix. Addicts would do almost anything satisfy the craving and, when their short lives came to an end, the British would already have another generation of slaves in the pipes. To those of you looking for "balance" in this article, there is no balance to this story. On one side are many millions of victims and a country that is only now recovering, on the other are some very wealthy people in Britain who even now are living lives of luxury because of the rapacity of their ancestors.

Emotional outbursts concerning the "poor addicted children" have no place in any encyclopedic body of knowledge.

[edit] The cause and effects of silver on Opium War

I found the first paragraph of the Opium War article ended on an unclear or even convoluted note about the cause and effect of silver on the Opium War. The sentences are "Europeans bought porcelain, silk, spices and tea from China, but sold little in return. The drain on China's silver further strained finances already squeezed by European wars."

I understand many Chinese scholars might have participated in this article and might justifiably feel indignant about the British trespassing, and want to emphasis the historical injustice done by the Europeans.

But without denying the guilt of the British parliament for later endorsing the Opium War, we can still encourage a deeper probe into the earlier silver crisis, which will deepen our understanding of the Opium War history.

My understanding is that in the century before the Opium War, the Qing dynasty was corrupted, and good money chased out bad money, and the kingdom had to horde silver. Qing regime exported but refused to import European textile (a sweet and ironic reversal of fortune today).

Use your common sense: why would China want to import European textiles? For one thing, China had silks, cottons, flaxs, bamboo fabrics, even blended fabrics, and all the fine textiles it needed, while Europeans loved to buy the delicate Chinese fabrics. Even at that time, China was exporting textiles (including but not limited to silk) to European. Secondly, Chinese and Europeans had different cultures and customs, used different textiles and fabrics for making clothings. European textile would have been useless to China. Thirdly and most importantly, unlike Europe, China was not a capitalist society at that point in history, so Chinese peasants had no need for mass consumption. While capitalism was transforming European societies and creating demand for mass consumption, the common Chinese citizens knew and wanted nothing from Europe. ktchong

Without the ability to regain silver coins from China (by selling into China), Britain faced a silver shortage by 1800. See Crisis of Silver Currency. This precipitated the Opium Wars in the next century, and may even have contributed to the American civil war.

You know, Britain's economic mishap and silver shortage (i.e., mostly caused by its long years of endless expansionist wars and wars-of-turf-and-succession against other European nations) was really Britain's own problem. It's not and shouldn't have been China's. Yet Britain decided to solve its economic crisis by exporting wars and stealing and robbing China of its treasury. Europeans had a habit of turning its money and economic problems into wars, destructions, and sufferings for other people. That's very typical of the British people (or just white people in general,) even to these days, (and Americans have inherited that aggressive, selfish trait.) ktchong

So that sentence "The drain on China's silver further strained finances already squeezed by European wars" seems to have put the historical cause and effect on its head. Of course, during and after the war, Chinese silver must have been eventually drained.

But the century before 1800, China seemed to be draining the world's silver, which was probably the more relevant cause, because that holds trememdous historical lessons for students of economics, politics, monetary policy, trade, and war today.

I'm no historian, so I put up this notes for you to discuss and make any amendments.

ktchong that last statment was racist; as well i strongly disagree with you.

Something is wrong about the above argument "why would China want to import European textiles? For one thing, China had silks, cottons, flaxs, bamboo fabrics, even blended fabrics, and all the fine textiles it needed, ..."

Did China have all the cost advantages in all the fabrics, machine tools, coal extraction techniques, steam engine and parts, navigational equipments, and other food products from the New World at that time? If so, why would it need to take the Qing regime to "officially" state "that China had no use for European manufactured products"?(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qing_dynasty#Rebellion.2C_unrest_and_external_pressure) (18:39, 19 March 2006 61.6.54.241)

Well yes it looks like China had all the cost advantages in textiles at least. The Qing Emperor stated that because it was, arguably, true. Lao Wai 19:19, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Why not let the peasants decide for themselves they don't need foreign equipments, knives, glass, even things that were already available in China but at lower prices, as well as exotics (perhaps wheat, cotton, peanut)? (18:39, 19 March 2006 61.6.54.241)

The Qing government did not stop anyone from buying any of that. The problem was the British did not build it cheap enough to complete with China. Remember 1839 is very early in the Industrial Revolution. This is why the British turned to opium, it was all they could sell. Lao Wai 19:19, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Apart from the peasants, what internal corruption and xenophobia might have blinded the "regime" from the common sense of buying the European guns and gunships to defend herself, and use them in the Qing regime's western expansion and quelling of revolts in Mongolia, Xinjiang, Sichuan by late 18th century? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qing_dynasty#The_Yongzheng_and_Qianlong_emperors). ( 18:39, 19 March 2006 61.6.54.241)

What about it? And what xenophobia? The Qing did buy such weapons although of course the Chinese traditional response has been to use trade embargoes not weapons. What makes you think that the Qing could have bought weapons anyway? Look at the Lay-Osborn floatila. Lao Wai 19:19, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
"England had little to trade back to China in exchange other than silver. I should point out that the British did have military technology, modern rifles, ships, and artillery they might have traded, but did not offer it. Instead, Britain exported opium" (http://chancelucky.blogspot.com/2006/07/opium-wars-by-travis-hanes-and-frank.html). Why in the world would England give advanced weapons to others, who might very well use those advanced weapons to attack the English?

Haven't these 18th century wars that the Qing dynasty conducted negatively impacted China's economy and silver demand, which many China-centric scholars have blamed on the foreigners and the Opium Wars that came later? The historical context of Qing dynasty's own imperial wars means there is not much difference between the Chinese and the Europeans who "had a habit of turning its money and economic problems into wars, destructions, and sufferings for other people ..." as you argued above. (18:39, 19 March 2006 61.6.54.241)

There is a world of difference. For a start the Qing were not into Imperial expansion and were not pushing opium on anyone. The Qing's wars may have had an impact on the economy, but the Qing government budget was small compared to the economy as a whole. It is unlikely to have done as much damage as the Opium trade. Lao Wai 19:19, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Understanding the Qing dynasty's pre-Opium-Wars failures is extremely important in understanding China's history and future. Blaming it all on the foreigners will only close up the minds of the students of China's history. (18:39, 19 March 2006 61.6.54.241) J Xie Mar 20, 2006

Perhaps but credit is needed where credit is due. And ignoring the foreigners and what they did will only cause the Chinese to foolishly trust the West once more. The Chinese need to cut their own path and that requires a full and proper understanding of history. Neither foolishly anti-Western nor naively pro-Western. But accurate. Lao Wai 19:19, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] To be honest

I have never see a war so anti-humain like Opium Wars.

A boastful “the most advanced” civilization dared to sell drugs to other countries for the sake of British Interests？

So I found that the columbia gangs can justify their transactions easily. Even they ask the columbian army to wage a war againt Great Britain for their sake.160.228.152.6 14:38, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


[edit] POV

The article tends to slightly lean towards the Chinese POV.

Tell me, what other viable POV is there? Lao Wai 12:56, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Nothing POV, British Empire was the most invader in the World!
It would be better to need some prove, I mean after all they import morphine.--MeowKun | Talk 04:53, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV 2

Things to remember: the use of opium within China beforehand (and how willing the Chinese were to use it), the fact that the Chinese government was Manchurian – not Chinese, the active participation of the Chinese in the trade, and, most importantly, the fact that opium was a globally widespread drug that was considered safe and socially acceptable/tolerable to use (far more so than, say, alcohol). Oh, and by the way, the English themselves were particularly heavy users of the drug, and it went largely unregulated (at all) for decades after the Opium Wars, so accusing them of being knowledgeable, malicious devils is rather baseless.

Perhaps you should read the article again. You state as 'fact that opium was a globally widespread drug that was considered safe and socially acceptable/tolerable to use', yet the article states "Faced with the health and social problems associated with opium use, the Chinese imperial government prohibited the smoking and trading of opium in 1729.', a direct contradiction of your claims of both the safety and worldwide use of the drug.
This date of 1729 for the ban of was over a century before the Opium war - which is roughly the time gap between now and when opiates were legal in England. Is the fact that opium use was once legal in the UK regarded as a excuse for present day drug smugglers?
It was a shameful war, and the British had as much right to force opium on China as the present day international drug cartels have to invade England and to shoot anyone who stops them selling heroin on the streets.
How do you regard the forced import of harmful drugs designed to weaken resistance against colonialism and make a profit in a neutral way? Not by stating "trade which was perceived from two different cultural and economic vantage points — as with any and all global economic conflicts between two parties." That is like describing a mugging of an old lady and taking her purse as "an encounter perceived from two different cultural and economic vantage points - — as with any and all economic conflicts between two parties". The two parties were not equal in their aggressive capabilities - Britain used military force to impose trade which was damaging to China and beneficial to itself and this should be acknowledged.


Herne nz 00:43, 23 July 2006 (UTC)


Manchurian and Tibetan are Chinese, like Welsh and Scottish are Englishmen (United Kingdom citizen).
Welsh people and Scottish people are not English people, all three are British people. Tozznok 00:29, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The english men are the worst

  • The english people it is the worst people that there has been in the aspect of the Earth
  • Terrorism of state in the epoch of Elizabeth I: the pirates
  • Invasion of Africa and Asia by the colonialism, them were used in having a top culture and being of white race.
  • The racist theories come all from England: the darwinismo, the superiority of the white Anglo-Saxon race, the apartheid, the racial discrimination in The United States...
  • Obligation to China to be opening for the trade of the drug, this one was a product that was exporting England: War of the Opium
  • It incites Tibet independent from Chinese Qing Dynasty!
  • total Annihilation of the aborigens in America, instead of the own miscegenation of territories colonizados for Spain and Portugal.
  • It is of few European countries that it supports colonies: Gibraltar, Malvinas, Georgias, etc.
  • Always it wanted the European balance to support his prevalence in the world. Besides they have never been interested In Europe.
  • It supports invasions to countries as Iraq.

For all this, always it has been and always will be Perfidious Albion

I agree. They still haven't apologized to China for forcing the opium trade, and last time I visited Buckingham Palace, the place was full of relics STOLEN from late Qing Dynasty.--Lssah 88 15:46, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


First off, what on earth does this rant have to do with the article in question?

"It incites Tibet independent from Chinese Qing Dynasty!" Oh, so it's just fine if China crushes Tibet and subjegates the Tibetan peoples, but it's not alright if someone else tries to do so to them?

Britain has never been interested in Europe? You show a distinct lack of historical knowledge with that statement.

Spain did more than its fair share of subjegating the native persons of the Americas. Aztecs ring a bell?

There's three simple facts here that should be understood: 1) Every nation/empire/whatever that has gained power has used it to crush others and profit from it. The persons that are in the country that is profiting typically aren't upset about this. 2) I could easily say the same about your own people, whomever they may be. No culture is pure and spotless. 3) The ranting above (including my own) has absolutely nothing to do with this article.

I ask agree with the above user and suggest that the rant above be deleted as it has no relevance to the article, has nothing to contribute to the article and is an extremely biased point of view that is nothing short of a rant. -- Catzdan 02:05, 24 October (GMT)

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