Talk:Operation Northwoods

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[edit] Change in wording

"The plan, which was not implemented, called for various false flag actions, including simulated or real state sponsored acts (such as hijacked planes) on U.S. and Cuban soil" Does anyone else agree that "false flag actions" should be reworded to false flag terror attacks, or something more telling than just "actions"?

--- Nope. 'Telling' is less relevent in an encyclopedic context than 'NPOV', and the plain facts are damning enough already. -Toptomcat 01:01, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I enjoyed

reading about Operation Northwoods. I can hardly wait 20-30 years for the current batch of clandestine government bungling to be released. If what we're now seeing are the plans that were approved, imagine what was discussed that never made it to the light of day.

The FOIA wasn't enacted until 1996, whereas Operation Northwoods dates to 1962. I expect that anyone in government currently planning crimes would take this into account, and take appropriate measures to destroy or obfuscate the evidence. Perhaps not, though; I get the idea from reading the Operation Northwoods documents that ones proposing criminal activity don't see it as wrong or immoral. In any case, since Operation Northwoods was never specifically enacted, I don't see how this can be interpreted as a case of "bungling," unless you feel the bungle was leaving a paper trail documenting the proposed crime.

[edit] September 11th Attacks

I think at the very least, there should be a mention on this page of the newly popular conspiracy theory about the relation to 9/11 and the operation Northwoods documents. It seems like any attempt to mention anything like that is instantly squashed. It needs to be said, it needs to be related, even if its just mentioning that its a popular theory, we need all sides of the thoughts.

I haven't heard of any conspiracy theory directly linking Operation Northwood to 9/11. Providing precedent is not the same as the two being directly related. The article stands for itself - there is no need to mention the obvious : if the US military was able to plan terrorism against itself without consequence, then there is little reason to assume such planning has not been repeated. However, if there is an entry for 9/11 conspiracy theories, a mention of Operation Northwoods could make sense there. Perhaps you can find some credible sources talking about Operation Northwoods and its relation to 9/11 conspiracy theories - I think then you could include it here.--Paraphelion 19:45, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

its mentioned at the very beginning of the Loose Change_(video) 2nd edition, probably as "evidence" that the government would be willing to fake terrorism against the united states to gain support for some activity, in this case 09/11/2001 attacks. --Ozzie The Owl 02:03, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Bush did WTC, lol Bush. See my userpage for more details =)
--PEAR 08:38, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] John Glenn?

One of the noted details is the suggestion of -

Using the potential death of astronaut John Glenn during the first attempt to put an American into orbit as a false pretext for war with Cuba.

I've seen this repeated a few times - I don't have Bamford's book to check if it's in there - but it's the only one of the claims here not in the declassified PDF linked to at GWU. Does anyone know the source for this claim? Shimgray 21:29, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Removed for now Rich Farmbrough 11:45, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

If we aren't checking all the sources, outright removal is hasty, if not irresponsible. Fearwig 05:03, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Isn't this related to "Operation DIRTY TRICK: a. Objective: The objective is to provide irrevocable proof that, should the MERCURY manned orbit flight fail, the fault lies with the Communists et al Cuba." [1] - one of the "Possible Actions to Provoke, Harrass, or Disrupt Cuba " [2] Rwendland 20:38, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reference to FOIA request?

There are claims that the document was a hoax. This article claims it was released through a FOIA request. Please provide the FOIA documentation, if it exists, as http://www.foia.cia.gov/ says no. Interestingly, not even the GWU archive finds the document via a search on Northwoods, although it's on their server.

--Vinsci 16:11, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The CIA site, as I understand these things, would only cover FOIA-requested information released by the CIA; if it was obtained through another department it might well not be there. (As I undersatand things, it wasn't a CIA document - the internal stamps all refer to JCS (Joint Chiefs of Staff) classification, or DoD directives.)
God only knows who originally requested it, although the NSA at GWU may well have copies of the documentation if it was done by them. They seem to aim to serve as a repository, however, so probably not. Shimgray 17:30, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I think Bamford alludes to having made the request in Body of Secrets, though Elliston's book cites it first, according to this wiki entry. Is it possible that multiple people requested it? If NSA did it, they should be happy to provide references. --Paraphelion 23:14, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Why only ABC?

Why do you suppose ABC ran this headline-grabbing article but no major news outlets picked it up?

I did quick searches for "Operation Northwoods" in the archived news Web pages and found no mention on the following:

CNN; Associated Press; New York Times

And the list of prominent news organizations featured when Googling "Operation Northwoods" seems to stop with the ABC article. The only other Website I recognized in the first few dozen links was Wikipedia (and I suppose answer.com, which just copies the Wikipedia article).

Any thoughts on why other mainstream news sources wouldn't pick up on this? Are US military plans to fake an attack on Americans not newsworthy? Did news sources find the story unreliable? If so, why not investigate and expose Bamford as a falsifier of stories? Doesn't the document seem relevant in the context of the false pretexts for war in Iraq?

I think you just answered your own question with that last one. -Rummy

[edit] Title 10

Can anyone clarify what "Title 10 US code 141(c)" or possibly "Title 10 US code 141(o)" is? Rich Farmbrough 11:27, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Title 10 Code 141 seems to be about military procurement, but I don't know about the (c). Some googling suggests that it may be a (6), though... not that that seems to help. hmm. Ask WP:RD? Shimgray 13:51, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Deleted section/"Body Of Secrets"

The section was based on a misreading of the Northwoods documents. It correctly noted that the JCS had specifically approved paragraph 8 of an identified document. However, it went on to incorrectly identify paragraph 8 as dealing with a proposal to shoot down a drone plane, falsely claim the plane was carrying vacationing college students, and blame the attack on Cuba. That proposal was found in paragraph 8 of the "annex" to the "appendix" of the document (referred to in places as the "enclosure.") Paragraph 8 of the document itself, captioned "RECOMMENDATIONS," called only for the JCS to transmit the "enclosure" to the Secretary of Defense and the "Cuba Project," as the approved JCS reply to the request that produced the Northwoods proposal. If there is any doubt regarding the point, it is explained in paragraph 2 of the Northwoods transmittal letter. Military bureaucracy often approaches opacity, and this is a fair example of the practice. Judge Magney 17:43, 11 August 2005 (UTC) Yep, well spotted. Rich Farmbrough 12:31, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The terms used in the document are not used by Americans.

The vocabulary used in the document uses a European term for Vacation, this coupled with the fact it is used in "off on a Holiday" seems more British, than American here is the quoted text from the document:

"...create an incident which will demonstrate convincingly that a Cuban aircraft has attacked and shot down a chartered civil airliner en route from the United States to Jamaica, Guatemala, Panama or Venezuela. The destination would be chosen only to cause the flight plan route to cross Cuba. The passengers could be a group of college students off on a holiday .."

Wikipedia's own page referencing the word "Holiday" says:

"In most of the rest of the English speaking world (including Australia, Canada, Ireland, New Zealand, South Africa, and the United Kingdom) a holiday is also a period spent away from home or business in travel or recreation (e.g. "I'm going on holiday to Majorca next week"), the American equivalent being "vacation"."

How can people continue to use it as a source, when it is unlikely that a British term, that is not used by Americans in the same context would be used in a document that is allegedly wrote by an arm of the U.S Government in support of terrorism? This doesn't raise any red flags to anyone?

The problem is that - had it been written in British English - it'd be "university students off on a holiday"; the term "college students", especially in the 1960s, simply wouldn't have been used outside specialist contexts (one might speak of "college students" in the context of a particular Oxbridge college, or at a polytechnic, but in casual usage the term "university students" or "students" would have been used). So whilst it's an odd construction, it doesn't really show it to be clearly not sourced from America, so much as a weird construction whoever wrote it. Shimgray | talk | 23:09, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm actually from Britain, and the term College is as likely to be used as University. although comparing it with language used in the 1960's, it was first published in May, 2001 in the book "Body of Secrets" I have never seen the word "Holiday" used in this context in the United States in fact when I first came to the U.S people thought I meant Holiday, in the sense of a public holiday, other than vacation. I do not see the term "college" being more relevent than a word that is not used in America, being used by the Government? when college is a term used in general discussion in different countries.

  • Weird. My experience has been that "college students" is used in the specific case ("college students at Balliol" or "college students at [a particular FE college]") - using it as the general case instead of "students" or "university students" really, really seems wrong to my (Scottish) eye - especially four decades ago. Will ask around - could just be that I have an odd usage.
  • But, at least in my opinion, it doesn't suggest it's "not american" in origin; it does suggest that whoever wrote that section had an odd command of the language. It could be the officer in question deliberately affected British styles of speech, or that he was brought up somewhere where the regional usage was archaic. Additionally, it's a draft document - note DRAFT all over the tops of those pages - which would be more likely to still have personal stylistic quirks than the final "government" version. There's other weird uses of language in there to the contemporary reader - a page later we have "fakir aircraft", presumably instead of "faker" (an aircraft simulating a hostile), and the unusual spelling "Charley" not "Charlie". We also have the correct "disburse" rather than the usual "disperse", which surprised me a bit.
  • Indeed, it's not implausible he learned the language before WWI, and phrases do change over time - some poking of IMDB finds a 1948 US film called Summer Holiday, which suggests the term was commonly understood then. (also Holiday in Havana 1949, Holiday for Lovers 1959, & a whole range more using it in the British sense)
  • Anyway, I seem to be running on a bit. My point is basically that the term seems to have been in more common use back then - and this aside, it's a draft document, and as such the stylistic quirks of one person are likely to show up much more than you'd normally expect in "a Pentagon memo". Shimgray | talk | 01:15, 11 October 2005 (UTC)


Give me a break. One word does not prove or even necessarily suggest a hoax. I lived with some Brits for a couple of years in Japan, and I ended up saying "I reckon" instead of "I think" (I had only heard "reckon" in cowboy movies before that), as well as things like "bloody hell." "Holiday" proves nothing, but it might suggest that as an elite American, the document's writer might have spent time in the British Isles or some other part of the English-speaking world besides the US. Not unusual.


Let us then take it as a fact, that the word "Holiday" was in wide circulation in that era, I have never seen it in literature or heard it spoken as such but let us assume it is a fact. Are we then to assume a document, that basically shakes the foundation of the United States Government, e.g the wilful murder of United States citizens in order to deceive the Populus into outright warfare against Cuba was not only de-classified in entirety but was also filed and kept although it was in "Draft" form -- only to be later discovered by an author to be placed in his book? No other source exists, correct? other that the copy that is referenced in the National Archives, which for all practical purposes could have been smuggled into the archives, inside Sandy Bergers pants! At least the Majestic Twelve documents are referenced as a possible "hoax" in wikipedia, it's suspect to say the _very_ least.

  • It is very hard to determine if a particular word was in use in an era; either you need contemporary dictionaries, which may just be prescriptive, or rely on people's memories, which can be confused by more current usage, or you need to spend hours reading... hmm, I have some electronic copies of novels from the period, searching them might work. [pokes] There's mention in conversation of taking "a holiday from reality", Pohl/Kornbluth, both Americans, The Space Merchants (1953), which was one of the first half-dozen I looked at. It's worth a bit of a study in its own right, this, but my dissertation is four thousand words under par and due on Monday...
  • Anyway, cutting to the chase - do I think this document is a hoax? No. Why? No governmental body has, that I ever heard of, disputed it's provenance. We all heard of (at least in passing) the Berger case you allude to, which exploded loudly and publicly - there hasn't been a peep contradicting this, or attempting to spin about it.
  • The existence of some plan of this kind was rumoured for many years, and understandably dismissed as nonsense. Bamford somehow got reasonably sure it existed whilst researching a book, published details, and about the same time the National Security Archive (a branch of George Washington University, not the National Archives) got hold of a copy under the Freedom of Information Act. I am unsure of the exact order there, though. The reason it's a draft only is because the plan was rejected - a draft of the proposal was sent to McNamara for him to approve, to his credit he disapproved, and nothing more was done about it. It would only have gone beyond a draft state had it been approved at a higher level - draft documents, especially highly sensitive ones, go to senior levels every day. Shimgray | talk | 13:49, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Last I checked there are only 30 days in November, even in 1962.
I've trimmed the date from that passage; it originally got dumped in here from Fidel Castro. I assume transcription errors... Shimgray | talk | 14:37, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Let's look at the quote. It called for the government to "...create an incident which will demonstrate convincingly that a Cuban aircraft has attacked and shot down a chartered civil airliner en route from the United States to Jamaica, Guatemala, Panama or Venezuela. The destination would be chosen only to cause the flight plan route to cross Cuba. The passengers could be a group of college students off on a holiday..."

  • Usually, when the term holiday is used to refer to a vacation, it is used without a before the word holiday. If it was referring to a vacation it would say "college students off on holiday"
  • This seems to denote that the event would occur on an actual holiday, such as Christmas, Thanksgiving, or Easter. Easter seems most likely, giving the fake destination of the plane (College student on spring break), although, choosing Thanksgiving would be more strategic choice because it is a uniquely American holiday. Christmas would also be a strategic choice because it would portray the Cubans as Godless (this is a side not, not part of the point I am making).
  • The point is that having the attack occur in such close proximity to a holiday, such as the ones motioned, would catch the public off guard. People's emotions would rapidly shift from celebratory to angry. They would want retribution against Cuba for "killing" the students and destroying the sanctity of the holiday in question.

[edit] Contingency

In what way is this plan a contingency plan? What is the event that is being planned for that is not likely to happen, as defined by the wiki entry for contingency, assuming we are not talking about the philosophical or logical definition, which will hold even less water? The introduction to Operation Northwoods states the objective of the document as :

"a request.. ..for brief but precise description of pretexts which would provide justification for US military intervention in Cuba".

So lets examine which part of this objective might be a contingency:

  • 1. the request
there was a request made, the request itself is surely not a contingency
  • 2. the event that US would require military intervention in Cuba
one year prior to this document, the US military did covertly act against Cuba (see Bay_of_Pigs_Invasion), so this is surely not a contingency
  • 3. the event that the US would need justification for US military intervention in Cuba
seems to be the best, albeit weak, case - that one might somehow construe a need for justification for a military intervention is "unlikely". How many Americans would say that their demand for justification when their military does anything is a mere contingency? This seems even more unlikely when one considers that the prior US military action against Cuba was committed covertly.

--Paraphelion 09:45, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

The military always has contingency plans set up. These are like "what if" plans. In other words, if under certain circumstances and certain events happen, then you have a contingency plan ready. I also added the part a few radical, because I have talked to many cuban exiles and they have never even heard of this plan. This was a really radical contingency plan and which is why it obviously was never executed.--Antispammer 19:21, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
You have essentially said nothing. Obviously the military has contingency plans, there is no evidence that this is one of them. This is a radical plan, in that it involves terrorism against the people it is sworn to protect, but radical does not mean contingency. In fact, it could be said that the methods were so radical that it was not merely for a contingency. Your anecdocal conversations with whatever cubans that may or may not exist outside of your mind is meaningless. To the surprise of absoutely no one, you have not named the event for which this plan is a mere contingency. --Paraphelion 23:53, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
It seems your ignorance of history has empowered your anger. Perhaps I shall take you along a stroll of what was happening in 1962... but ofcourse you would never take my word for it. *Sigh* I'll come back with some stupid citations but just remember, you are wrong.--Antispammer 00:28, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
As for the radical part I suggest you leave this, as it is radical even you agree, and it was proposed by 2 people.--Antispammer 00:46, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Here, you said you wanted a citation. I'll let you pick whichever one you want from here--Antispammer 00:52, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
I read over your statement again Your anecdocal conversations with whatever cubans that may or may not exist outside of your mind is meaningless. and this really struck me as offensive. I think you need to take a chill pill and relax. If you think that these 2 guys were not radical for wanting to use terror tactics, then you are out of your mind.--Antispammer 01:14, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Again, all you have to say is essentially meaningless. You comment on my perceived anger and resort to adhominem attack. A google search is not a citation. The chair of the joint cheifs cannot be considered radical for one radical plan. Perhaps your perception of an unrelaxed enviornment is a result of having provided no actual proof. I will be requesting arbitration.--Paraphelion 03:07, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
You can pick any of those sources that will tell you that it is a contingency plan. Secondly, the joint cheifs signed it, he did not author it. If you think all I have to say is essentially meaningless then you should not be in Wikipedia. Read |Wikipedia is not a soapbox to spread hateful propaganda--Antispammer 03:21, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps you should pick a source. I looked at a few and they are opinion articles. Nothing you have said is meaningful because you have provided only ad hominem attack, links to google searchs, anecdotes about your claimed conversations with people, and obvious information such as that the military has contingency plans. Perhaps that is a smokescreen for your not answering simple questions, such as "What is the event for which this plan is a contingency?" I never said the chair of the joint cheifs authored it.--Paraphelion 03:49, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Well obviously that is not even relevant. But I can see that you have already over-analysed me... all I brought was my sincerity and truth and you threw it out the window. Ofcourse, you will have to give me some time to research this question, but before you go ahead and vote me for arbitration I suggest you leave my edits as this is an encyclopedia not an outlet for intellectual subtle hate-speech...Do you realize that anyone in the world can read this and misinterpret this and think that the U.S. wants to terrorize its own people? I can see that the more I type the more you will reanalyse my statements and highlight everything I have said as anecdotal. *sigh* Give me some time to research what events might have been... Wait a minute... that would be me doing ORIGINAL RESEARCH. Well, I can see that perhaps this is the long standing question for you as you will never give in to my analysis. Perhaps, I encourage to you read about Cuban history more rigorously. As far as my edits are concerned I ask you nicely to leave them as I don't want some one that has No knowledge of Cuban-American relations to get inflamed by this. In fact I myself personally am already pissed off because this radical and largely unheard of contigency plan is already link to state terrorism. Ok look, take a deep breath I can tell you don't like my opinion....but seriously I have a friend that after September 11th was full of outrage. He did not understand what was going on and he started reading the crap that Alex Jones and Michael Ruppert say. Look just give me some time to figure out what unlikely events would lead to considering this proposal in 1962. I will email you what I find out, but please take into consideration that this is an online encylopedia, not the rest of the internet where can you write "United States is evil blah blah blah". Having said that, I did not come in here to ad hominem attack you but I was really angry at this kind of subtle interpretation for this kind of document.--Antispammer 07:26, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Exactly where do you find anything I've said to be about hate. You are the one using POV terms such as radical and contingency. I have no idea who Alex Jones or Michael Ruppert are. Since you say you are pissed off, perhaps it is you who is hateful. I don't think I've over analyzed you becuase you have provided little of any actual meaning to analyze, and this last reply of yours is still largely anecdotal evidence. I find it bizzare that you are worried that a single document will give people the impression that as a whole, the US government wants to terrorize its own people. It is quite bizzare that you use terms such as 'pissed off' and 'outrage' to describe the feelings of you and your friends, yet somehow interpret my questioning of POV adjectives as hateful. Do note that I have not referred to my feelings, what conversations I may have or may have not have with people nor how 9/11 may have personally affected me, as none of this has anything to do with an encyclopedic article. If the only evidence you can conceive of providing is what you consider to be original research, perhaps there is a reason that is so, and perhaps you should question your own impartiality. Given your numerous citations of anecdotal evidence, insulting authors that I have never heard of and have not come up in our conversation, and appeals to sentimentality, it would appear that it is you who are getting up on a soapbox. Perhaps you are simply a US patriot who is disturbed at the fact that in 1962, the highest ranking military officer signed off on a plan to commit terrorism against the people he was sworn to protect, and you have difficulty reconsiling this with your extreme patriotism, all of which would be perfectly understandable, as you have little or no way of knowing how many other plans such as these have been proposed and signed since that time and the implications that could have. There's my one time over analysis of you, take it or leave it. Additionally, I think you are beginning to reveal your agenda when you say "As far as my edits are concerned I ask you nicely to leave them as I don't want some one that has No knowledge of Cuban-American relations to get inflamed by this." --Paraphelion 07:43, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Deny Deny Deny. Do you realize that in this case I do not care about impartiality? Do you realize I do not care if the whole world comes and see's your quick interpretation of my agenda? Do you realize why I am hateful on this issue? Do you realize that anyone can read this crap and misinterpret this article to form a conclusion such as the United States makes evil little plans to do evil things? Do you realize that I can see right through you? Do you realize that I can't stand people who make judgements about the United States Department of Defense, and do not understand anything about war? Do you realize what was going on in 1962? Clearly you don't and I am not going to sit here behind my computer and educate you about all the things that were going on in 1962. I hope you can open up a book and learn your history, before you make judgements about the rationale of the United States DoD.--Antispammer 08:51, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry. I over-reacted....--Antispammer 09:03, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Look I took a deep breath. Perhaps you are simply a US patriot who is disturbed at the fact that in 1962, the highest ranking military officer signed off on a plan to commit terrorism against the people he was sworn to protect. It's not about that...there a thousands of contingency plans that are made. This is just one contingency plan that was clearly radical and clearly someone found it and was outraged by it and decided to release it to the public.--Antispammer 09:09, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for taking a moment to stand back from the conversation, I appreciate it. I'm not asking just because it is relevant to our conversation - but do you know how many other contingency plans the US military has that involve terrorism against its own people? You say contingency plans do not bother you, and I understand that, they do not bother me either, but this one I hope is an exception, it doesn't bother you that the US military was open to committing terrorism against its own people, especially in the light of a war on terror today? I like to think this plan was an exception, or at least not typical under other JSOS. Another thing I think one should consider is that - shouldn't some things be off limits in a contingency plan? It's one thing to plan for bad scenarios, it's quite another when those plans specifically targeting public opinion, that is tantamount to specifically targeting the US constitution. For instance, do you think there are US military contingency plans which involve assassinating the president? - and if no, don't you think that's a good thing? - that some things, no matter what the circumstances, the US military should not be planning it, because it should never ever have the authority to do so, unless the country was depredated to a point where the argument is moot - and if so, then I think that shows a fundamental lack of faith in the US way of life, a way of life that isn't supposed to be treated as a luxury that the military can disregard whenever the military or a few politicians say so. How can you be sure that these plans are made for the ultimate benefit of the people when they target the people they are sworn to protect - the people who pay the bill for the time spent on making these plans. Just as we should not pay our own military to plan the assassination of our own elected officials, we should not pay them to plan terrorist actions against ourselves for the purposes of changing our own opinion. If the military wants to do something and public opinion gets in the way, then they should not be doing it. But, back to the main question - do you know of other US military plans that target US citizens by terror or other force? Some circumstantial evidence - this document does seem to indicate the authors expect that other people in the government are making up similar plans, and the document does not treat as novel the concept of targeting its own citizens by terror, or using terrorism at all. Also, I think the plan was radical, but the authors not proven as such yet.--Paraphelion 17:58, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

--Paraphelion 17:58, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

I respect your questions. Before I punch the living crap out of my monitor, for you coming up with some wild allegations and give you a knee-jerk reaction response; I am going to take some time off so that I can come back with a more eloquent answer.--Antispammer 02:09, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure what wild allegations you are talking about - perhaps you misread, even if slightly? - please take the time to reread what I wrote. I was saying that I hope that this Operation Northwoods is not common - that the JSOS does not routinely come up with plans, even contingency plans, which involve terrorism against its own citizens. The part about the president is an example of what I was hoping you would agree on should never be planned, to illustrate that there should indeed be limits on what the military plans.--Paraphelion 02:33, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

I was referring to your wild allegations that Cuban-Americans are in any way responsible for 9/11. Please re-direct your ignorance and hatred to OBL.--Antispammer 10:26, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

You may want to reread, I have no idea what you are talking about.--Paraphelion 13:58, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Am I mistaken, or is this all WP:NOR? I hope this isn't being approached as potential material for the article (or a potential rationale for removal of material). Fearwig 05:08, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] LoL

Thanks for trying to incite hate amongst the U.S. and giving ammunition for people that will never understand this document a reason to hate this country.--Antispammer 11:34, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Antispammer, are you interested in the truth of the matter, or protecting the "image" of the country? It seems more like the latter than the former... I for one am outraged that the military whose sole job it is, is to protect the American people EVER seriously considered a "contingency" plan like this at any time in the past. This is more about covering their asses to do whatever they want, than actually being concerned with the protection of their charges: the American people. There could not possibly be any justification for this "contingency" plan, in any reality, at any time, that would be convincing. It is a dark spot in our military history, and I hope to god these things aren't occuring anymore. Ed Sanville 15:41, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

The purpose of an encyclopedia is to provide factual information, or its closest aproximation. However, I must hereby accuse the facts of a POV bias. Due to its obvious anti-American slant, I move that all factual information be removed from Wikipedia. Fearwig 05:12, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Response to disclosure by surviving officials

The article should make note of the public comments of the surviving officials of that period. I don't think anyone has admitted being aware of Northwoods, including McNamara. Mirror Vax 03:43, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Category: Conspiracy theories?

Some people seem to believe Operation Northwoods is a hoax, some believe it really existed, and the whole subject is about nefarious dealings by the government. Sounds like a conspiracy theory to me (in the neutral sense of the term... some conspiracies are real!). Plus Northwoods is also cited by 9/11 conspiracy believers as is mentioned in the article. Other than from the reverter, any objections to adding this page to Category: Conspiracy theories?

Mjk2357 20:05, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Northwoods certainly resembles a conspiracy theory. But it isn't one. That's what makes it interesting. Mirror Vax 00:08, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Would fit better in a conspiracies category.--Paraphelion 03:03, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Are we sure this thing is real? There seems to be some debate that's why I wanted to put it in the "theories" category. Mjk2357 12:04, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

I am, I consider the National Security Archive a reliable source.--Paraphelion 03:02, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
    Its conspiracy fact.
I (facetiously) suggest the first moon landing (and all subsequent moon landings) be moved to Category:Conspiracy Theories, as many individuals deny the legitimacy of space travel. Oh, don't forget heliocentrism. Really though, would it be surprising that conspiracy theorists might use any legitimate conspiracy (or similar event or document) as a basis of their arguments, no matter how illegitimate those individual arguments might be? Guilt by association is not a rational policy. Fearwig 05:15, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I apologize

Sorry for getting angry before

[edit] Category: Articles with unsourced statements

Speaking of unsourced statements, what is the specific basis of this categorization? Fearwig 05:19, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I placed a request for citation on the "bomb Jamaica etc to incite the UK into supporting an invasion of Cuba". I couldn't find anything on it, and I've never heard of it. Hence it comes under cats with unsourced statements --Zleitzen 05:39, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
According to excerpts in [3] (search for "Jamaica") it's in James Bamford's "Body of Secrets: Anatomy of the Ultra-Secret National Security Agency" Rwendland 20:31, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
That book should be cited, then, rather than a 9/11 conspiracy article. This is exactly the sort of trash this article, never mind the encyclopedia, does not need. 141.153.90.177 20:34, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
It would be good if someone checked the book (Chapter Four) - I don't have a copy. But 90% of that extlink does purport to simply be excerpts from Chapter Four, and is given as a source elsewhere in the article. Rwendland 22:00, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Good point; I didn't notice that it already appeared in the article. Big oversight. 141.153.90.177 22:06, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

There seems to be an issue about whether work by James Bamford should be included in this article. Given that the primary sources are all available on this subject - is it really neccessary to refer to secondary sources such as Bamford. Also I haven't a clue why 9/11 keeps getting dragged into this page. Could anyone clarify on either point?--Zleitzen 01:53, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

  • Wikipedia actually prefers secondary sources to primary sources. See WP:RS.
  • Some people want to say the operation northwoods supports the idea that 9/11 was an "inside job" by the US government. Tom Harrison Talk 02:14, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Tom. I understand the WP:RS premise but in these rare cases the secondary source only obscures the subject matter and article - isn't Bamford merely a pundit speculating from the hip on what is actually readily available to us and can be proved or disproved anyway? Perhaps a re structuring is in order to clearly differentiate between the primary documents and one guy's interpretation. As for this 9/11 business, bah and humbug, surely those people cannot be serious sources for this article by the very nature of their claim. btw I've also been discussing restructuring ideas on the Cuban Project page with relation to this page.--Zleitzen 10:32, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
So far as conspiracies go, they are ubiquitous. Everyone is in agreement that the 9/11 attacks were the result of a conspiracy. But those who are genuinely knowledgeable and care about the truth reject fallacious conspiracy theories, such as the U.S. government's lying, self-serving, a-historical, a-factual, and provably false official fairy tale conspiracy theory concerning the 9/11 attacks.
More than four times the amount of non-combatants have been systematically murdered for purely ideological reasons by their own governments within the past century than were killed in that same time-span from wars. From 1900 to 1923, various Turkish regimes killed from 3,500,000 to over 4,300,000 of its own Armenians, Greeks, Nestorians, and other Christians. Communist governments have murdered over 110 million of their own subjects since 1917. And Germany murdered some 16 million of it own subjects in the past century. (The preceding figures are from Prof. Rudolph Joseph Rummel's website at http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/ .)
All totaled, neither the private-sector crime which government is largely responsible for promoting and causing or even the wars committed by governments upon the subjects of other governments come anywhere close to the crimes government is directly responsible for committing against its own citizens--certainly not in amount of numbers. Without a doubt, the most dangerous presence to ever exist throughout history has always been the people's very own government.
Needless to say, all of these government mass-slaughters were conspiracies--massive conspiracies, at that. 209.208.77.73 17:46, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
Readers, and myself, want to know about a series of verifiable policy proposals made between the years of 1961-63 by the United States government, concerning foreign policy towards Cuba. Anything beyond that is irrelevant to this article. This has nothing to do with "conspiracy theories", Rudolph Rummel, Turkish regimes or any of the above comments I'm afraid - interesting though they are.--Zleitzen 19:10, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
If you believe that your current comments are true, then begin by following your own advice, instead of being the hypocrite that you currently are. I merely responded to your irrational remarks disparaging those who rightly are critical of the U.S. government's provable falsehoods regarding the U.S. government-staged 9/11 attacks. If you're going to dish out such comments, then don't get your panties in a twist when those whom you attacked respond. Obviously you like dishing out attacks, but you become upset when one whom you attacked responds. You want to eat your cake and have it, too, as they say. 209.208.77.73 23:30, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
I don't give a crap about who supposedly orchestrated 9/11 - it may as well have been Dick Cheney as far as I care. My concerns are Cuban politics, the Northwoods project and Cuba-US relations. That is my interest here - That is the focus of this article - That is what should be discussed within the article. --Zleitzen 01:04, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
Actually, your present comments here are not true, as can be seen from your comments in your above 10:32, 8 July 2006 (UTC) post. Unless of course you've changed your mind since then. Regardless of the state of your current position, I merely responded to your attack. As I said before, if you believe that your current comments are true, then begin by following your own advice, instead of being the hypocrite that you currently are. I merely responded to your irrational remarks disparaging those who rightly are critical of the U.S. government's provable falsehoods regarding the U.S. government-staged 9/11 attacks. If you're going to dish out such comments, then don't get your panties in a twist when those whom you attacked respond. Obviously you like dishing out attacks, but you become upset when one whom you attacked responds. You want to eat your cake and have it, too, as they say. 209.208.77.73 03:24, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
I haven't "dished out any attacks" - I believe that they are all coming from your corner. Please discuss this article and the subject matter of this article, taking your talk on 9/11 to the 9/11 conspiracy theories page. I haven't "changed my mind" on any point either, linking the verifiable Northwoods to speculative theories on 9/11 degrades the importance of this within the timeline of Cuban history. Which has consequences to the view of Cuban - US relations both at the time and in the subsequent years. If you want to figure more credible speculative theories about the potential upshot of Northwoods - you'll find them in the Caribbean sea rather than Manhattan. But that's beside the point as well.--Zleitzen 14:35, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
You have a persistent problem with not being able to tell the truth. In your above 01:04, 9 July 2006 (UTC) post you wrote, "I don't give a crap about who supposedly orchestrated 9/11 ..." Yet obviously that's not true given your comments in this present post of yours and in your above 10:32, 8 July 2006 (UTC) post. From that latter-said post of yours: "As for this 9/11 business, bah and humbug, surely those people cannot be serious sources for this article by the very nature of their claim." That is hardly a statement of neutrality on the matter, and is indeed a statement that you do "give a crap about who supposedly orchestrated 9/11."
Furthermore, that quoted statement from your 10:32, 8 July 2006 (UTC) post is an attack on those who present evidence and proof that the 9/11 attacks were staged by the U.S. government, for as you assert "surely those people cannot be serious sources for this article by the very nature of their claim." Contrary to your claim, surely those people can be serious sources.
As well, in the present post of yours, you declare that evidence that the 9/11 attacks were staged by the U.S. government is speculative. While as within any field there is some speculation on particular matters, there is nothing speculative about much of the evidence or the conclusion that the U.S. government staged the 9/11 attacks from beginning to end. The case for this is as solid and iron-clad as can be made for any event in history.
So once again, as I said previously, if you believe that your current comments are true, then begin by following your own advice, instead of being the hypocrite that you currently are. I merely responded to your irrational remarks disparaging those who rightly are critical of the U.S. government's provable falsehoods regarding the U.S. government-staged 9/11 attacks. If you're going to dish out such comments, then don't get your panties in a twist when those whom you attacked respond. Obviously you like dishing out attacks, but you become upset when one whom you attacked responds. You want to eat your cake and have it, too, as they say. 209.208.77.138 16:15, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What does it mean?

I don't know where NPOV leaves off and preferring life over murder picks up, but there is something to be said for the goverment institutions and personnel who could cook something like this up.

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