Talk:Oleksander Koshetz

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I can't find reliable attributions for the attendance record and the Gershwin inspiration, but they seemed too important to leave out. —Michael Z. 02:38, 2004 Sep 6 (UTC)

Contents 1 Anon's problems 2 Kuban kazak's vandalizm of the article 2.1 Ridiculous 3 Edit war

[edit] Anon's problems

Pasted from User talk:134

• Please don't revert war from IP accounts. The reasons were given mutliple times. --Irpen 20:19, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

  Ok can you please tell me what is your problem here: and why is this incorrect both factually and grammatically version:

  • and collected Ukrainian folk songs in Kiev an Kuban’ regions.

should not be:

• • and collected Ukrainian and Cossack folk songs from the Kiev and Kuban regions respectively.

If you do not want to be called дебил or дурень don't live up to those words. --Kuban Cossack 10:39, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

• Also what is this bullshit about not only Cossacks lived in the Kuban region. Sorry but unless you mean the Armenian and Ciracassians (Adygeyans and Cherkess) there is really no one else, minus the 20th century migration.--Kuban Cossack 16:22, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

  Now would you like to explain why your sock, 65.25.223.16 continues to vandalise that page? Ты от меня не уйдешь, лучше сразу все тут выложи.--Kuban Cossack 10:34, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

  Once again, unless you want me to ask to lock that article for the second time I strongly suggest that you discuss your problem here.--Kuban Cossack 22:29, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Now then as you do not have a talk page, would you discuss here. --Kuban Cossack 23:20, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kuban kazak's vandalizm of the article

Oleksander Koshetz was collecting Ukrainian songs in the Kuban region (Russia). User:Kuban kazak being from the region does not like the mentioned fact. He does not like any fact of any mentioning of Ukrainians being lived in the region. For this reason he has reverted the article at least 10 times already, erasing the fact of Koshetz collecting Ukrainian songs in Kuban region. --Anonymous. 23:31, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

First of all get into your brain that Cossacks lived in the Kuban not Ukrainians. True, even I do not deny the Ukrainian influence on the Kuban dialect, but those songs were Cossack songs. Is Rasprigaite Hlopsi Koni or Lyubo bratsi Lyubo a Ukrainian folk song? No they are Cossack folk songs. Here is a POV vandal who thinks that Ukrainians=Cossacks. Have a look at the Russian census for Kuban for that fact. Cossacks are presented as a separate subgroup of RUSSIANS. --Kuban Cossack 23:36, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

И че ты меня про мой родной край учешь? Don't you worry Kuban is Ukrainian as much as Lvov is Russian and as New England is British. --Kuban Cossack 23:40, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Koshetz collected Ukrainian songs in Kuban region at the beginning of XX century. Read more on the history of the region: [1] --Anonymous

Oh dear, honestely do you thing that this pure bullshit is going to stand, look at the refrences: half are published by the authors previous works. Of the rest more than half are published outside Russia. Now here are some hard facts for you, which I can reffer to original documents and manuscripts. Russian ethnograpical study, 2005 ;[2] :

Интересно, что на заключительном этапе исследования они решили добавить в список Южного региона фамилии жителей Краснодарского края, ожидая, что преобладание украинских фамилий потомков запорожских казаков, выселенных сюда Екатериной II, ощутимо сократит общерусский список. Но это дополнительное ограничение сократило список общерусских фамилий всего на 7 единиц - до 250. Из чего вытекал очевидный и не для всех приятный вывод, что Кубань населена в основном русскими людьми. А куда делись и были ли вообще здесь украинцы - большой вопрос. Well I certainely can trace my roots to Zaporozhian ancestros, but we, отнюдь. NEVER called ourselves Ukrainians. That article of yours talks about some random facts about schools with Ukrainian learning. True there were Ukrainian schools in the Kuban, just like ballet schools or gymnastic schools. However they were never closed and all are still open (unlike the Russian schools in Ukraine). The only difference is that prior to about 1930 all teaching was done in the local dialect, and afterwards there was a law saying that it must be taught in standard Russian. As for Ukrainian grammar being taught in rural Kuban schools, dream on no matter how hard you look into local archives you will NEVER find any mention, because that is a pure lie. :) --Kuban Cossack 00:11, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

On your last point, if you check the list of references carefully, you will see "bukvar" published in Kuban'. And speeking on schools, Ukrainian schools are the schools in which different subjuct are thought in Ukrainian language, that is the language in which children can more easy understain and learn. This is contrary to "ballet schools or gymnastic schools", which are specialized schools in one distipline.

Yes, there is a famous Krasnodar print press which published books in ALL ex-FSU languages. And yes there are Ukrainian schools still existing as do Armenian, English and many others with all teaching done in the language. Point is percentage of Ukrainian schools in Kuban was never and is still not greter (or less) than in Khanty-Mansiisk, Yakutiya, Tatarstan or Dagestan as in all other areas of Russia (with possible exception of Moscow). As for local dialect, since 1990s, once again all rural teaching is done in it. --Kuban Cossack 00:52, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Back to Koshets though. Ukrainian songs from Kiev, Cossack songs from Kuban. Agreed. --Kuban Cossack 00:11, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Koshetz was really collecting Ukrainian songs in Kuban region. he foud them, and he published them. These are the facts. --Anonymous

Yes and those songs are exactly those that are sung by us Cossacks, the thing is we sing it in or balachka. Give or take a few words it becomes Ukrainian lanaguage song. Give or take a few other words, it becomes a Russian language song. Your point? However the songs are not sung by Ukrainians that is main point (actually I have altered the article to reflect on this) of my argument. --Kuban Cossack 00:52, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ridiculous

This rv war is ridiculous. This article is practically a stub!!! You're talking about a composer who left volumes upon volumes of written materials behind, travelled the world with a state choir (that didn't even have a state!) promoting his music when travelling wasn't exactly easy, and more importantly taught and/or trained an entire generation of musicians. And you're arguing about an out-of-place sentence that covers a meager 2-year period of this fantastic career. Ridiculous, I say. This whole article needs a rewrite.

Can we talk about the name? Most scholars will use Koshyts' (because that was his name) as opposed to Koshetz. Can we please correct this mistake? I will begin gathering materials to expand the article.--tufkaa 04:39, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Well I certainly agree on your view of the article, unfortunately this anon freind of ours seems to not take things so lightly, as a result the article was actually protected by the anti-vandalism committee, even that did not stop him. I am dissapointed no less than you are. --Kuban Cossack 08:54, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I have to objectives for renaming the article to "Koshyts". Tufkaa, the edit war was initiated by Kuban kazak who was erasing the fact that Koshyts was collecting Ukrainian songs in Kuban region. --Anonymous

Not really, as those songs were not Ukrainian but Cossack ones. However that is OT, I would also move the article to Alexander Koshyts, as that would be the correct english name.--Kuban Cossack 16:44, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

It does not matter what you think is his "correct english name". What matters is his name under which he is known. And it's not Alexander, but Oleksander --KPbIC 16:48, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Well I did not bother to google yet, butI will take your word for it. --Kuban Cossack 16:56, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I know of no manuscript that was signed Koshetz by the composer. While there has been literature printed with the name Koshetz, I do not understand how that changes someone's name. Out of all his students that I know, none refer to him as Koshetz. I don't really know who other than music scholars would know about Koshyts', so what colloquial reference of Koshetz needs to be preserved?

BTW, I'm not familiar with his given name being Oleksander, but rather Oleksandr.--tufkaa 20:34, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edit war

Kuban Cossak Your Edit War is absurd. You try to prove that on Kuban never veins Ukrainians. This disagrees all statistical data. Article from yellow presses as argument - a full absurdity. I heard much groups of ten ukrainian song in performance Kuban Cossaks Chorus. And assure You that they exactly on get prettier the Ukrainian, with small local cut-in, rather then on dialect of the Russian. They have a song and in russian, including and "Lyubo bratsy, lyubo" as well as several Russian song Linear and Don Cossacks. I suppose best your contribution than edit war was write about Kuban Cossaks Chorus. Can give links on their site and scan from cover disk. --Yakudza 22:30, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

The edit war was reached to consensus, and then you once again troll in. Statistical data is explained on that very talk page of the Ukrainian language and it is about speakers not ethnicity. Commenting on the latter, then think about Kharkov, ethnic Ukrainians that have Russian as their native language. Well think of Kuban as mirrored analogy of it. As for Kuban Cossack chorus, then they sing many songs, and some very Russian, some Ural Cossack. However the best folk Cossack songs will be heard in stanitsas, with pure Kuban balachka songs. Fact is Kuban is was and is ethnically Russian, like Kharkov Oblast is ethnically Ukrainian. --Kuban Cossack 22:39, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

However I would certainly love to start it off. Here is the site you are talking about www.kkx.ru. --Kuban Cossack 22:44, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Again, Koshetz collected Ukrainian songs in Kuban region. User:Kuban kazak, please read the external link provided in the article. You have provided absolutely no reference in support of your cooked-up statement that Koshetz was not collected Ukrainian songs in Kuban region. KPbIC 05:05, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

What's wrong with "collected Kuban Cossack songs?" This is certainly precise and the debate of whether Kuban Cossacks are Ukrainians can be addressed in Kuban Cossacks article. There is no denying, that they originate from the Dnieper Cossacks. The only question is when their self-perseption changed. There is no need to resolve this in Koshyts' article. --Irpen 05:53, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Irpen, Koshetz was not collecting just "Kuban Cossack songs", he was specifically looking for Ukrainian songs which were still in memory of Ukrainian kazak settlers in Kuban'.

Українці Кубані свято берегли й передавали наступним поколінням привезені з України пісні, думи, перекази, активно розвивали хорове мистецтво, гру на народних інструментах. Великого поширення на Кубані набула гра на бандурі. Кубань дала цілу плеяду видатних бан-дуристів, які прославили гру на цьому інструменті далеко за межами України. У 1913 році в Катеринодарі світової слави бандурист-віртуоз Василь Ємець відкрив першу кубанську кобзарську школу. Капели бандуристів почали створюватись у багатьох станицях. Олександр Кошиць, коли записував на Кубані в 1903–1905 роках українські пісні, згадував, що в кубанських станицях можна було чути такі репліки: «Ми теж запорожці, й діди наші були запорожцями». З цього приводу О. Кошиць дає такий коментар: «У своїй уяві вони (кубанці-чорно-морці) цілком відріжняли Кубань від Росії. Для них вона була цілком чужий світ, а про Україну казали: «У нас, на Україні». Прислухаючись до чистої української мови, якою розмовляв Кошиць, «частенько який-небудь старенький козак напідпитку, ударивши мене по плечу, в захопленні казав: «О, цей пан краще балакає по-запорозьки, ніж ми!» [2].

О. Кошиць признається, що на Кубані доля дала йому щастя роз-мовляти «в якомусь містичному тумані з самою історією, чути, як б’ється серце всієї нації, сама моя батьківщина шепотіла мені на вухо всі свої жалі, свої образи, свої скарги, свої сподівання. За це я дякую моїй долі! Це просвітило мій розум, дало національну силу моїй душі, національно ушляхетнило моє серце й навіки спрямувало мою жит-тєву працю» [3].

As a side note, it would be nice if you start your valuable edits from the latest version, not from Kuban Cossacks's version ignoring later corrections by Yakudza and me. KPbIC 07:01, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

I did take into account the Yakudza's correction. At least so I tried. Go correct me, if I missed smth. Now to the issue, this seems to me a POV source. The issue of whether it was correct to call the residents of Kuban at the turn of the century "Ukrainians" is debatable at least. That the author of the book says that they were "Українці Кубані" , is his side of the story. Also, the Imperial census, if one beleives the UA L article, shows that half the population of Kuban spoke the "Little Russian dialect", that is Ukrainian of course. But those Great or Little Russian speakers were certainly all Kuban Cossacks and no one else. So, to say that these were Kuban Cossack songs is factually accurate. To be sure, I added that the population originated from Ukrainian cossacks. This makes it clear the connection between the songs and the Ukrainian culture. I thought the rest belongs to the K.C. article.

I notice you reverted me already, hence it is important for you to be more explicit in the article. Fine, I just stopped by here by accident prompted by user talk:134 discussion. Have it your way. I have my hands full already. --Irpen 07:20, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

I do not understand from what did the problem. Some russian ethnographer could collect the russian song on territory of the Ukraine, Koshits collected ukrainian song on Kuban region. The phrase "Cossacks song" not quite exact. On Kuban veins not only Cossacks but also Inogorodnie (Иногородние), which Сossacks were not. Besides Cossack song were and on Ukrainian and in Russian. We do not know collected Koshits song in Russian. No no sources about this. The phrase "collecting Ukrainian songs in Kuban region" to my mind - more exact. --Yakudza 08:09, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Irpen, sorry, but I found the correct DOB of Koshetz (only in wikipedia for an unknown reason it was Sep 14, instead of Sep 12 everywhere else), added info on the memorial concert (based on the link Kuban kazak provided; Kuban didn't forget to mention the patronage of UOC, but "forgot" to mention the patronage by Yuschenko), added additional category, and, yes, I changed the vandalized by Kuban kazak part back to original Michael's version "collected Ukrainian songs in Kiev and Kuban' regions". You reverted all of this in the first place... Based on what..? So, I did correct you...

Speaking on the issue. We are not talking whether it is "correct to call the residents of Kuban at the turn of the century "Ukrainians". Koshetz specifically collected songs from "переселенців, у свій час депортованих з України козаків" [3]. This is a specific subset of songs he was interested in, Ukrainian songs. KPbIC 08:16, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Deported my freind is a POV, but there seems to a myth that goes deep into all of the articles that people cite. First of all if one examines chronicles that were kept by Kuban Cossacks prior to 1917 all will be published in Russian. Second, the whole term "Ukrainian" was never mentioned there. It is a well known fact that the Dnieper, Zaporozhian Cossacks simply reffered to themselves as Ruthenians. So far that name continues to be applied. Yes it is true we see ourselves different from the people that are now called Russians (Velikorossy) however the population censuses have clear different category for ALL Cossacks as a subgroup with ability to specify who we identify with, none chose Ukrainian. The analogy here is that if talk about Ukrainian not as a citizen, not as a political man, but simply on the ethnic base of that term i.e. Malorossian then Carpathian Ruthenians would not fall into that umbrella. Same with Cossacks and Russians. I mean there are non-Russian Cossacks that came up on the census. e.g Nağaybäk (Tatar Cossacks), there are Bashkirians that serve in the Ural host. However the census clearely put that the Ukrainian umbrella does not extend to the Kuban Cossacks. Sorry to dissapoint you. Can we now srop this issue? --Kuban Cossack 10:40, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Moving on, Irpen what I think KRbICA and Yakudza are trying to say is that when Koshetz went to the Kuban he was trying to see wether, after a century of alienation since the Zaporozhians left wether or not the musical similartities existed in their descendents, and as people say there was some (there would be some now, because we are still the same Zaporozhians, and loyal to the Treaty of Pereyaslavl for eternity, like it was agreed 352 years ago). I think we should neither have collected Ukrainian songs or Kuban songs but that paragraph right there, as that is clearely a valid fact, nor is it a POV, as you have already provided a source. --Kuban Cossack 10:39, 26 April 2006 (UTC)