Talk:Old English Bulldog

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[edit] Clarification

The Old English Bulldog is a distinct breed of dog that once existed and flourished. No breed has ever replaced it. This article should not be merged with any other article. I have cleaned up the article based on the latest Bulldog books and theories. The article is accurate. Please feel free to expand it but ensure you have done your research first. Thank you Battlefield 23:12, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The breed lives on

First, the statement concering the dogs size is incorrect. 16 inches and 45 pounds is small even for today's bastardized pug-product. There is no way a dog under 50 pounds, however tenacious, could have survived the swipes of a bear and the slams of a bull. No, the dog must have weighed closer to, but probably not exceeding, 100 pounds. There should also be clarrification as to what generation of Bulldog is the subject here. The bulldog of the Elizabethan era would have been more athletic and multi-purpose. Certainly used for baiting and combat, but baiting and combat of a variety of beasts. Utilitarian functions were also of demand in that era. Bulldogs were farm equipment more than entertainers, peasants more than professional pugilists. It makes sense that dogs served practical roles before the Industrial Revolution. One should remember too that distinctions between Mastiffs and bulldogs were only just appearing in print, circa the 1600's. It wasn't until the Industrial Revolution that the English bulldog became specialized (changing from small to capital "B"), serving only a concentrated role. When one looks at British history it is evident why the adaptation of the breed for purpose of roles and formation occured.

During the period of American colinazation, many settlers sojourned the Atlantic accompanied by their bulldogs. The tasks ahead would require hard work - labour's only reward was survival. The American South was then, even more than it is now, heavily forrested and alive with predators and prey. Forced to live with nature, the settlers were dependant on their bulldogs who were capable of dealing with these beasts. The bulldog brought by the settlers would have been of a more utilitarian variety; Leggy and athletic, used to running and working bulls more than for torturing them. The bulldog would have survived as a protector of property and life, even at the expense of his own. Generations of settlers found themselves in conditions that those back in England would have thought were lost to antiquity. This preserved the bulldog. His function persisted and in fact expanded. While there's a clear semblance between all the Bulldogs, the American Bulldog, which is leggier than he from the early Victorian era, has the exact appearance of the Elizabethan one.

Arguably, today's true-bulldogs (American Bulldogs) breed more true to form than any generation of true-bulldog ever did. While different "types" of American Bulldog have recently emerged, different types of bulldog have always existed. Also, it is important to note that many breeders by insistance or circumstance breed only the "Old Country White" type. Many American Bulldog owners, whether their bulldog is Classic, Old Country, Johnson, hybrid, etc., can present specimens identical to Crib and Rosa (dogs from the Industrial Revolution who were fairly leggy). It's possible that, at different points in time, other dog breeds were introduced into AB lines. It is completely untrue, however, that the AB is a constructed breed with a fabricated geneology.

As an aside, I think John D. Johnson has done something interesting with his Bully type. The dog was bred from smaller bulldogs, but now is almost the size of a Mastiff. From this and information from reputable sources, it's probably not a stretch to imagine that Mastiffs, up until the 1600's-1700's looked more like his dog - and not like brindled, short-hair St. Bernards.

The bottom line is the "Old English Bulldog" is extinct, their genetics are lost. There are many varieties of Bulldogs, some look similiar to the OEB, but are not the same genetics. Cordially SirIsaacBrock 00:11, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Maybe you misread what I wrote. The breed was taken to America. Just because fanciers in England changed the dogs there and because true English Bulldogs in America existed only in small, isolated regions, that doesn't mean the genetics are lost. Are Greyhounds in America (or anywhere outside of England, for that matter)not Greyhounds? It's illogical to say the Bulldog of England is extinct on these grounds - the only ones the argument for extinction can stand on.

Furthermore, what is this "OEB" anyway? Define it. Is it the bulldog of 1820, 1600, 1250, 100 BC? Again, the dog was never really bred to form and its role was always changing. If you insist on the OEB as the dog of England's Industrial era, the one used specifically to bait bulls, then yes, that dog is extinct. But the Labrador Retriever, the dog that brings back water fowl, must be on the brink of extinction as well.

Why would people take none bulldog breeds to create the Olde English Bulldogge, why wouldn't they just track down Old English Bulldog pedigrees and breed them ?? They are not able too, because the OED is extinct. My last words on the matter. Cordially SirIsaacBrock 04:28, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Terriers or not

Let's try to avoid any further revert wars here. If there is are explicit citations that terriers were mixed into the breed, please list them here so that other editors can verify the information. Thanks. Elf | Talk 17:20, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

As it states in the article, Terriers were crossed with the Old English Bulldog LATER creating a new breed called the Bull and Terrier. Terriers were not part of the base to create the Bulldog. Thank you for getting involved SirIsaacBrock 22:41, 23 January 2006 (UTC)