Talk:O Brother, Where Art Thou?

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Three of the five Fairfield Four are in the film. Koyaanis Qatsi

Contents 1 96th, huh? 2 Other Film references 2.1 Mac 3 Good material at imdb.com 4 Tommy Johnson 5 the SCENE 6 Another "Odyssey" Parallel? 7 Tommy 8 Requesting sources for theories (no original research!) 9 Lingering questions regarding character of U.E. McGill 10 Historical claims 11 Parallels to the Odyssey

[edit] 96th, huh?

"The song was so popular in Australia that it featured at number 96 in the Triple J's hottest 100 songs of 2003." LOL I wouldn't call number 96 on Australia's songs of 2003 "SO popular". I'm taking out this line if there are no objections. 66.171.140.215 02:11, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Other Film references

Where does O Brother Where Art Thou reference Star Wars? I've seen the film several times and cannot see a reference. Kel-nage 03:19, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I've removed said claimed reference. Input was from repeated vandal. Kel-nage 03:32, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Speaking of references, what are the Oz references? Leibniz 15:58, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• It's in the KKK rally scene, where the klansmen are depicted like minions of the Wicked Witch of the West. Three of the protagonists jump out from behind a bush, overtake and put on the white hoods of some klansmen, and surreptitiously join in on the crowd chanting "OOO-EEE-OOO". There is a rather similar reference in one of the Lord of the Rings films.--Pharos 15:25, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Mac

While on the lamb from police, Babyface Nelson (played by Michael Badalucco), screams of his hatred of cows and begins to shoot the beasts. This part of the scene seems to be in direct response to a 1992 movie called Mac, written and directed by John John Turturro, during which the main character, Niccolo Vitelliac's brother played by Michael Badalucco, walks through a pasture gushing over his love and facination of cows.

[edit] Good material at imdb.com

This page has a lot of interesting info about the film. Some of it might improve the Wikipedia article but I'd be wary of just copying & pasting (verifying & then paraphrasing would be good). Here's an Oz reference, for example: "The scene where Ulysses, Pete and Delmar come upon the KKK meeting is a reference to the scene in The Wizard of Oz (1939) when the Tin Man, Scarecrow and Lion sneak up on the Witch's castle. The chanting and formation marching of the Witch's guards are mimicked by the KKK members. Infiltration is achieved in both films by overpowering three guards and KKK members respectively and donning their garb." --Ds13 05:26, 2005 Jun 4 (UTC)

Ah, yes. I remember the "ooo-eee-ooo-eee" chant by the guard now. Leibniz 12:51, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

However, not all the "trivia" on the IMDB page is to be trusted:

"Odysseus means "man who is in constant pain and sorrow".

According to Odysseus, that etymology is bollocks.

---Leibniz 19:32, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Well, it does mean "man of wrath" according to Homer, so you can just about see where they're coming from... Kel-nage 19:35, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

If the word "Odysseus" is derived from odýssomai it would certainly mean something like "man of wrath". If it, on the other hand, is connected to the verb odýromai, it would translate: "a man of mourning, complaining". I am a bit hesitant in accepting the derivation from οδηγός, as mentioned in Odysseus, but I will look into when I have some time to spare. --Kappel 21:05, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

perhaps someone should note in the soggy bottom boy's/man of constant sorrow section that one of the lyrics in the song is "I bid farewell to old Kentucky, the place where I was born and raised"; emphasising on Kentucky, Clooney himself was born and raised in (Northern) Kentucky. It's unknown if this is was intentional, or if it just fit because of the region of the film and era. Personally, I couldn't imagine it not being intentional. I would edit this in myself, but cannot find a way to word it elegantly. 70.35.222.158 07:00, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tommy Johnson

I changed the part "musicians clearly modeled after the blues singer Robert Johnson" to "musicians clearly modeled after the blues singer Tommy Johnson" as there was a real life blues singer of note named Tommy Johnson who claimed to have sold his soul to the devil, unlike Robert Johnson, who never actually claimed to make a Faustian deal.

[edit] the SCENE

in the scene that happens in which some people of black heritage are sentenced to death without any meaning, does anyone get killed? It's just i'm very open to everyone's opinions, but this is too much for me, and I just can't bring myself to watch it, or speak its name. so does anyone get killed? Or do they escape?

Nobody dies in the KKK scene. Actually, I forgot, one of the members dies. The guitarist and the trio escape unharmed. --Poiuyt Man ^talk 22:49, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, they rescue the guitarist by causing a diversion where they throw the Confederate flag, shouting "Can't let it touch the ground!" The Klansmen all scramble to catch it, and the Cyclops catches it in the nick of time. But while they were distracted, the trio knock over the giant burning cross, and it crashes down on the assembled Klansmen. (Loud cheers all around) The High Wizard or whatever their leader was called escapes, but I'd assume that the Cyclops and most of the other Klansmen were killed or at least badly burned up. (I don't think we see the Cyclops for the rest of the movie, but I haven't seen it in years, so I might be mistaken) 142.161.204.112 23:47, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Another "Odyssey" Parallel?

Can we consider the second "Soggy Bottom Boys" scene another parallel to the Odyssey? In the poem, Athena does disguise Odysseus to appear older so none will recognize him, and Everett does wear a huge fake beard which seems to fool nearly everyone until he tugs it down a few inches. Rituro 16:57, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Also, it says: •In the movie, Ulysses meets an old and blind prophet. In the Odyssey, Odysseus goes to the underworld to seek the advice of Tiresias, an old and blind prophet, who also tells him that his travels will not be over until he takes an oar and walks so far inland that someone asks him why he carries a winnowing-fan (the point of doing this is to bring knowledge of the sea to people who did not previously know Poseidon, thereby "making up" for his mistakes). Upon doing this, he is also to make a sacrifice to Poseidon. This is possibly mirrored in the movie by Ulysses' being given an equally seemingly impossible task -- to find one ring at the bottom of a lake.

I was thinking about it, and wouldn't Penelope's challenge to the servant to move the bed that Odyseus made, be in correspondence with Penny's challenge to find the ring at the bottom of the lake? --Riotgirl329 23:55, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tommy

I changed "Robert Johnson" to "Tommy Johnson," as someone above had recommended, and I added Chris Thomas King, who played Tommy, to the cast list.–Clpalmore

[edit] Requesting sources for theories (no original research!)

There are many reasonable theories and speculations presented in the "Parallels with the Odyssey" section. However, Wikipedia doesn't permit us to introduce new theories or ideas. I apologize if these are old, published theories. That's easy to fix with some citations though. But if these theories can't be verified in a reputable publication, then I think we need to get rid of some or all of them. Thoughts? --Ds13 18:04, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

This is one of those times when finding sources can be a real difficulty. The filmmakers are silent about what they did or did not intend as direct references to the poem; however, many people searching out info online about the movie are looking for Odyssey parallels, and to remove that information from the article seems a shame. Take, for example, the one I recently added; it's widely accessible knowledge that pouring oil over the head is a common way to anoint kings (and indeed the word "anoint" comes from this practice); did the filmmakers intend Ulysses's hair oil to be a reference to Odysseus's kingship? We have no way of knowing, and I've seen this theory on message boards and the like, but are they really citeable? It's a thorny problem with this article. - dharmabum 02:40, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree — it's a thorny problem and it's a shame to lose content, but if the content looks like original research that hasn't been put together and published before at a reputable source, then Wikipedia isn't the place for it. Certainly if a fan site had an ongoing discussion of what the filmmakers had in mind and what certain scenes might represent, then we could link to that site but I think citing even one fan site isn't going to qualify as reputable source for WP's purposes. I enjoyed the movie so I'd love to see a good article on it, but not if it means treading below encyclopedic standards.

A constructive alternative to just deleting unsourced content would be to put it all into a Wikipedia:To-do list here in the talk pages and as verifiable sources are found for these theories, they can be moved with citation to the article page. Just a thought. --Ds13 21:47, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

This is where the line between Wikipedia and a print encyclopedia blur; you can't look to Britannica for good parallels between the film and "The Odyssey", but it's impossible to find sources for all of these; some may be often discussed in citeable publications (you can certainly find many sourced film reviews, critiques etc. on the parallel between John Goodman's character and Polyphemos or the washer women as the Sirens), some may not be (the possible connection of washer women by the river to Finnegans Wake or the slaughter of the cows compared to the slaughter of the Oxen of Helios). The sticking point is that these additions are rarely true original research, but the passing along of material from discussion groups, film and literary societies, and the like.

I hate to see any useful information get moved to the talk page in a case like this, since only a very small percentage of WP browsers ever look at the talk pages. Whether the Coens intended it or not or whether there's a source or not, the fact that a bovine slaughter played a role in both the film and the poem is of interest. Maybe an (admittedly imperfect) solution would be to place the {{unsourced}}, or even the {{OR}} tag on the section without removing the material entirely. It makes it clear that this information is not 100% confirmed or sourced, it might draw editors who watch those categories to try to improve the sourcing, but it still leaves the information there with a caveat to casual browsers that can inspire debate and discussion. - dharmabum 09:43, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

After looking at the article some more, I think part of the problem can be solved by some simple wording. Consider the difference between this statement (currently in the article with a cite-needed tag):

At one point George Nelson shoots at a herd of cattle. This may be a reference to a scene in the book where Odysseus and his fellow travelers slaughter the cows of the sun god Helios.

And this one I just composed:

George Nelson shoots at a herd of cattle, killing several. In the poem, Odysseus's men slaughter a herd of oxen belonging to the sun god Helios.

One directly implies a reference; the other points out two events in the poem and film which simply happened. It leaves the reader to form their own conclusion. I'll work on changing entries under the section to this kind of relationship when I get the time. - dharmabum 10:03, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for giving this some thought. I think your wording is an improvement, since at least it keeps the individual observations verifiable, which is critical. However, presenting them in a "Parallels" section means we are telling the reader that these two things actually are parallel or are interpreted to be parallel according to one or more reliable sources, which requires verifiability at that level also.

Verifiability is a hard policy on WP, but what makes a "reliable source" is only a guideline. Since we both agree that the origin of one of these theories cannot be WP itself, perhaps all we need to do is start tagging each claimed parallel with the most reliable offline or online review or critic or analysis we can find in <ref></ref> tags (with a <references/> section near the end) and refine and improve as we go. If we don't raise this bar, we'll encourage future dumping of original and half-cocked theories here without setting an example of what to aim for. --Ds13 20:28, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lingering questions regarding character of U.E. McGill

I have two lingering questions about the character of Ulysses Everett McGill: 1. Why does he display a heightened fear of fire? ("I hate fire!!!") 2. Why does he have seven daughters? (Odysseus had one son)

[edit] Historical claims

Put in some pretty obvious corrections to claims about "never having read the Odyssey". The joke here is on the critics for believing them [again] (cf. Fargo). --Fremsley 23:27, 28 July 2006(UTC).

[edit] Parallels to the Odyssey

This section is far, far too long, and, as per the above comment, poorly sourced. Also, if I remember my Wiki policy correctly, paragraph style is preferable to bullet point style.

I would like to cut the section down, which would involve removing redundant info and less important parallels. What references to people feel are less important, and could be cut? Natalie 18:37, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Go for it. See the Requesting sources... debate above. While analysys of the parellels is interesting, it does violate WP rules on sources and verifiability. Someone should make an independant website and provide a link from the article to keep this infomation available. It doesn't belong on WP. Ashmoo 00:47, 13 December 2006 (UTC)