Talk:Nuclear terrorism

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Removed statements about use of nuclear weapons during WWII as possible acts of terrorism. These statesments violate Wikipedia guidelines Wikipedia:Cite Sources and Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words. The use of nuclear weapons during a declared war by uniformed military under orders from top government authority is not terrorism. At most, it may be considered a possible war crime, but even that is doubtful.

I just have an honest question about this: "Others believe that the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki constitute such an act." First, I'm not positive I agree with that statement because a declared state of war existed between Japan and the United States, but I can accept it IF someone can point to some sources where people are stating that they believe the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki to be nuclear terrorism. I would then support changing "others" to "$sources" in the statment. --ABQCat 00:00, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I don't know what the article's author had in mind because I didn't write it, but I think the origin of this statement lie in the serious problem of defining the word "terrorist" in a neutral apolitical fashion that would be of practical use when deciding how the international community should respond. The best suggestion so far, IMHO, was made by the Indian government which said it would simply be "any act of violence that contravenes the Geneva Convention". Technically, I think but I'm not sure, the attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki could be arguably said to contravene the convention because they were deliberate attacks on civilian areas of little military significance. The same "terrorism" label is sometimes also applied to the deliberate British bombing of civilian areas in Germany (especially the city of Dresden) as ordered by the famous Royal Air Force officer "Bomber" Harris. Bomber Harris' actions have actually been a great source of controversy in Britain over the past couple of decades, with many now of the opinion that they should never have happened and should be classed as war crimes because Harris' conscious and stated strategy was to end the war by deliberately killing as many German civilians as possible in order to break their morale. Deliberate indiscriminate mass killing of civilians in order to break morale is, in many people's eyes, also a definition of a terrorist act. I assume the phrase about Hiroshima and Nagasaki in the article is meant to refer to similar discussions about the morality and legality of using the atomic bombs on those cities.

[edit] Vandalism by Pro-US editors

Certain editors have first rewritten the sections on hiroshima and nagasaki with horrendous editorialising, and then deleted them outright. Due to the 3RR rule I can't do anything about this right now (but I will continue to reinsert the sections in question at a later date).

The view the these were acts of terrorism is quite prevelant and deserves attention, regardless of whether certian people wish to sweep them under the carpet. Damburger 14:32, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

It seems no matter how much evidence I produce that people do hold that opinion, the pro-US crowd on here stick to blind denial. The section needs to stay as a contrary opinion. Regardless of whether it offends certain editors senses of nationalism. Damburger 14:50, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

You need to start by actually producing evidence, and if, as you claim, "The view the these were acts of terrorism is quite prevelant", you should have no problem producing WP:RS that say this. What you have done so far is not even close. For example, the most recently added citation [1], does not call the acts nuclear terrorism, but rather asks a question 'So who was the terrorist here? The "allies" who used the ultimate atomic weapon -- or was it the Japanese, who had launched the Pearl Harbor terrorist attack on the United States and whose wartime invasion of Asia was notable for its brutal tactics?' - but does not answer it to say that it was the allies who are terrorists. Two other points I'll make to you: (1) Please read and familiarize yourself with WP:CIVIL. Your recent edit summary was abusive, and editors may be blocked for such behaviour (2) 3RR is not an entitlement. Making statements like "Due to the 3RR rule I can't do anything about this right now (but I will continue to reinsert the sections in question at a later date). " indicates an intention to continue edit warring, and will get you reported and blocked even if you do not technically violate 3RR. Isarig 15:22, 15 August 2006 (UTC) +

I have produced 4 links, after having the first 2 challenged on tenuous grounds. Its clear to me that no matter how much I produce you and your allies will never accept the presence of an opposing viewpoint in this article. The question you quote is a Rhetorical question, I suggest you familiarise yourself with the concept.

You produced 4 links. The first two were rightly rejected as they were not WP:RS. The next two do not say what you claim. The CommonDreams article calls Fort Benning the capital of Nuclear Terrorism, but that's unrelated to Hiroshima. It says bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki was evil, but does not once say that Hiroshima was nuclear terrorism. The Asia Media article also does not say what you claim, as I have shown. It is indeed a rhetorical question - one that explictly calls one attack "terrorist" - the Japanese one. You have claimed that the view that it was Nuclear Terroism is quite prevelant - so you should have no problem producing WP:RS that actually say it. Isarig 17:01, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Given that the idea of a reputable source around here mainly revolves around being a representative of the mainstream US media, it is quite hard to find material that doesn't toe the American line. Nevertheless, I have found it, but have been met with constant vandalism of the article (deletion of the entire section, and thus the entire opposing view, is clearly vandalism). Damburger 15:35, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

You are bot incorrect with regards to what makes a WP:RS, and misleading with regards to what your sources say. Isarig 17:01, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

And still there is no justification for deleting the entire section (beyond demonstrably false statements in the edit summary). How can I see this as anything other than vandalism if people refuse to discuss why they wish to remove this side of the argument from the article? I am deeply dissappointed at the level this has got to, with people trying to censor section and refusing to discuss the content at all. Damburger 15:01, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed outline for major revision

Greetings everyone. I'm planning on making a major revision to the page, incorporating information on nuclear terrorism from a number of sources. I'll work from books ( Graham Allison, Nuclear Terrorism, Ferguson and Potter, Four Faces of Nuclear Terrorism), papers ([2]), and official sources like the IAEA. I propose to outline it as such.

1. Definition of nuclear terrorism, including links to Radiological Dispersal Devices (Dirty Bombs) and attacks on nuclear power plants.
2. Incidents that might have been precursors to nuclear terrorism.
3. Scholarship on nuclear terrorism.
   1. Early scholarship and how it has waxed and waned.
4. Efforts to prevent nuclear terrorism.
   1. Proposals and official efforts.

Note if you think I'm missing anything--I plan to make this article about three times as long; see the above list for the extensive scholarship on the topic that this article hasn't even begun to mention. I will not get into the controversy about Hiroshima, though I may mention it toward the end. I would love input from anyone on these changes, which I plan to make next week.Mich112358 22:10, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

As long as the controversy about Hiroshima is actually mentioned I'm happy. A lot of the editors are trying to purge any mention of it from the article.