Talk:Novgorod Republic

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Contents

[edit] Knyazs and posadniks

From http://www.genealogia.ru/ru/lib/catalog/rulers/3.htm . mikka (t)

Новгородская феодальная республика (Х в. - 1478).
Новгородская, Ленинградская, Архангельская, север Тверской обл., республики
Коми и Карелия.
Столица Новгород (Господин Великий Новгород).
1) Князья, назначаемые из Киева (ок. 970 - 1136).
1. Владимир Святославич Святой (970 - 78, 980, потом в Киеве).
2. Ярослав Владимирович (ок. 995 - 1019, потом в Киеве).
3. Вышеслав Владимирович (ок. 980 - 995).
4. Илья Ярославич (1019 - 21).
5. Брячислав Изяславич полоцкий (1021 - 36).
6. Владимир Ярославич (1036 - 52).
7. Изяслав Ярославич (1052 - 54, потом в Киеве).
8. Глеб Святославич тмутараканский (1054 - 78)*
9. Святополк Изяславич (1078 - 87, потом в Турове).
10. Мстислав Владимирович (1087 - 95, потом в Ростове)(1096 - 1113)(1114 - 16).
11. Давыд Святославич (1095 - 96, потом в Муроме).
12. Святослав Владимирович (1113 - 14).
13. Всеволод-Гавриил Мстиславич (1116 - 32)(1132 - 36).
2) Князья, избираемые новгородским вече (1136 - 1478).
14. Святослав Ольгович рыльский (1136 - 38, потом в Новгороде-Северском)(1139 - 41).
15. Ростислав Юрьевич суздальский (1138 - 39)(1141 - 42).
16. Всеволод Ольгович черниговский (1139).
17. Святополк Мстиславич полоцкий (1142 - 48).
18. Ярослав Изяславич киевский (1148 - 54).
19. Ростислав Мстиславич смоленский (1154).
20. Давыд Ростиславич смоленский (1154).
21. Мстислав Юрьевич суздальский (1154 - 57).
22. Святослав Ростиславич киевский (1157 - 60)(1161 - 68).
23. Мстислав Ростиславич суздальский (1160 - 61)(1175 - 76)(1177 - 78).
24. Роман Мстиславич волынский (1168 - 69).:
25. Рюрик Ростиславич киевский (1169 - 72).
26. Юрий Андреевич суздальский (1172 - 75).
27. Ярослав Мстиславич суздальский (1176 - 77).
28. Ярополк Ростиславич суздальский (1178).
29. Роман Ростиславич смоленский (1178 - 79).
30. Мстислав Ростиславич смоленский (1179 - 80).:
31. Владимир Святославич киевский (1180 - 81).
32. Ярослав Владимирович волынский (1181 - 82)(1187 - 96)(1197 - 99).
33. Мстислав Давыдович смоленский (1182 - 87).
34. Ярополк Ярославич черниговский (1196 - 97).
35. Святослав Всеволодович суздальский (1204 - 08).
36. Константин Всеволодович суздальский (1204 - 08).
37. Мстислав Мстиславич Удатный торопецкий (1210 - 14)(1216 - 17).
38. Ярослав Всеволодович переяславский (1214 - 16)(1225 - 28)(1230 - 36)*
39. Святослав Мстиславич смоленский (1217 - 19).
40. Всеволод Мстиславич смоленский (1219 - 21).
41. Всеволод Юрьевич суздальский (1221)(1223 - 24).
42. Ярослав Юрьевич суздальский (1221 - 23).
43. Михаил Всеволодович черниговский (1224 - 25)(1229)*
44. Федор Ярославич суздальский (форм. 1228 - 29).
45. Ростислав Михайлович черниговский (1229 - 30).
46. Александр Ярославич Невский переяславский (форм. 1228 - 29)(1236 - 40)

(1241 - 52).

47. Андрей Ярославич владимировский (1240 - 41).
48. Василий Александрович суздальский (1252 - 55)(1256 - 58).
49. Ярослав Ярославич тверской (1255 - 56)(1264 - 71).
50. Дмитрий Александрович суздальский (1258 - 64)(1271 - 73)(1275 - 81)(1283 - 94).
51. Василий Ярославич костромской (1273 - 76).
52. Андрей Александрович городецкий (1281 - 83)(1294 - 1304).

Борис Андреевич (наместник 1294 - 1304).

53. Михаил Ярославич тверской (1304 - 14)(1315 - 18).
54. Афанасий Данилович (1315).
55. Юрий Данилович московский (1318 - 22)*
56. Дмитрий Михайлович тверской (1322 - 25)*
57. Александр Михайлович тверской (1326 - 27)*

1328 - 1359 московские князья.

58. Дмитрий Константинович суздальский (1359 - 62).

1362 - 1478 московские князья.

3) Московские служилые князья-наместники (1403 - 78).
Юрий Святославич смоленский (1403 - 07)*
Семен-Лугвень Ольгердович литовский (1407 - 13).
Константин Дмитриевич (1413 - 25).
Юрий Семенович литовский (1432 - 40)(1446 - 47).
Иван Владимирович литовский (1444 - 46).
Александр Васильевич Чарторыйский (1447 - 55).
Василий Васильевич Шуйский-Гребенка (1455 - 71)(1472 - 78).
Михаил Олелькович (1471 - 72).
С 1478 московские воеводы.
1611 - 1617 шведская оккупация.
Карл-Филипп, сын Карла IХ шведского (форм. великий князь Новгорода 1611 - 17).
4) Посадники (ок. 950 - 1478).
Первоначально посадники избирались пожизненно, потом на два года.
С 1286 г. установлено коллективное посадничество представителей концов (районов)
Новгорода, из которых на год избирался степенной (главный) посадник.
Добрыня (киевский наместник ок. 980 - 990).
Воробей Стоянович (ок. 995).
Коснятин (Константин) Добрыньевич (ок. 1016 - 16/19).
Остромир (Иосиф)(ок. 1050 - 1054/58)
ок. 1058 - 1100 Завид, Петрята, Коснятин, Миронег, Савва, Улеб, Гюрята,
Микула (Никола).
Добрыня (ок. 1110 - 1117).
Дмитр Завидич (1117 - 18).
Коснятин Моисеевич (1118 - 19)(1125 - 26).
Борис (1120 - 25).
Мирослав Гюрятинич (1126 - 28)(1134 - 35).
Завид (Давид) Дмитрович (1128).
Данила (1129 - 31).
Петрила Микульчич (1131 - 32)*
Иванко Павлович (1132 - 34)*
Коснятин Микульчич (1135 - 36)(1146 - 47).
Якун Мирославич (1137 - 41)(1157 - 60)(1168 - 70).
Судила Иванкович (1141 - 44)(1147- 57).
Нежата Твердятич (1144 - 46)(1160 - 61).
Захария (1161 - 67)*
Якун Андреевич (1167 - 68).
Жирослав (1170 - 71)(1171 - 72)(1175).
Иванко Захарьинич (1171)(1172 - 75)(1184 - 86).
Завид Неревинич (1175 - 76)(1177 - 80).
Михалко Степанович (1176 - 77)(1180 - 84)(1186 - 89)(1204 - 05).:
Мирошка Нездинич (1189 - 1204).
Дмитр Мирошкинич (1205 - 07)*
Твердислав Михалкович (1207 - 11)(1213 - 15)(1216 - 19)(1219 - 20).
Дмитр Якунич (1211 - 12/13).
Юрий Иванкович (1215 - 16).
Семен Борисович (1219)*
Иванко Дмитрович (1220 - 29).
Внезд Водовик (1229 - 30).
Степан Твердиславич (1230 - 43).
Збыслав Якунович (1243 - 50).
Онания Феофилактович (ок. 1250 - 55).
Михалко Степанович (1255 - 58)*
Михаил Федорович (1258 - 68)*
Павша Онаньинич (1268 - 72)(1272 - 73).
Михаил Мишинич (1272)(1273 - 80).
Семен Михайлович (1280 - 86).
Андрей Климович (1286 - 91)(1294 - 95)(1295 - 97)(1299 - 1300)(1301 - 02)(1303 - 04)*
Юрий Мишинич (1291 - 92)(1297 - 98)(1304 - 05).
Семен Климович (1292 - 94)(1298 - 99)(1300 - 01)(1302 - 03)(1312 - 15)(1316 - 17).
Семен Иванович (1298/9 - 1300).
Михаил Павшинич (1310 - 12)*
Варфоломей Юрьевич (1323 - 24)(1331 - 32).
Данила (1327 - 28).
Федор Ахмыл (1329 - 30)(1332).
Захария Михайлович (1332).
Матвей Вафоломеевич Коска (1332 - 33)(1345 - 46).
Федор (Ахмыл ?) (1334 - 35).
Федор Данилович (1335 - 36)(1338 - 39)(1342 - 43)(1348 - 49)(1350).
Остафий Дворянинец (1340 - 41)(1344 - 45)(1347 - 48)*
Оницифор Лукич (1347/48)(1350 - 51)(1353 - 54).
Александр Дворянинцев (1346 - 47)(1354).
Федор Юрьевич (1349 - 50).
Ондреян Захарьинич (1359 - 60).
1360 - 70 неизвестные посадники.
Иван Семенович (1370 - 71).
Юрий Иванович (1371 - 72)(1373 - 74)(1374 - 75).
Михаил Данилович (1372 - 73).
Василий Иванович (1385).
Андреян Захарьинич (1390 - 91).
Есиф Захарьинич (1391 - 92).
Сильвестр Леонтьевич (1392 - 93).
Григорий Якунов (1393 - 94).
Федор Тимофеевич (1394 - 95).
Богдан Обакунович (1395 - 96).
Григорий Богданович (1396 - 97).
Тимофей Юрьевич (1397 - 98).
Александр Фоминич (1398 - 99).
Есиф Фалалеевич (1399 - 1400).
Юрий Дмитриевич (1400 - 01).
Иван Александрович (1401 - 02).
Фома Иванович (1402 - 03).
Кирилл Андреянович (1403 - 04).
Фома Есифович (1404 - 05).
Кирилл Дмитриевич (1405 - 06).
Иван Данилович (1406 - 07).
Андрей Иванович (1407 - 08).
Иван Богданович (1408 - 09).
Борис Васильевич (1415 - 16).
Семен Васильевич (1416 - 17).
Василий Есифович (1417 - 18).
Иван Богданович (1418 - 19).
Александр Игнатьевич (1419 - 20).
Василий Микитинич (1420 - 21).
Михаил Иванович (1421)(1424 - 25)
Тимофей Васильевич (1421 - 22).
Михаил Ананьич (1423 - 24).
1424 - 34 неизвестные посадники.
Самсон Иванович (1434).
Григорий Кириллович Посахно (1434 - 35)(1436).
Борис Юрьевич (1435 - 36)(1436).
Федор Данилович (1435).
Иван Васильевич (1436 - 37).
Федор Олисеевич (1437)(1441 - 42).
Дмитрий Васильевич (1437 - 38)(1450 - 51).
Иван Лукинич Щока (1438)(1455 - 56)(1456).
Исаак Андреевич Борецкий (1438 - 39)(1453 - 54).
Федор Яковлевич (1439).
Богдан Микитинич (1439 - 40).
Есиф Андреевич (1440).
Есиф Григорьевич Посахно (1440 - 41)(1447 - 48).
Есиф Яковлевич (1441).
Анания Семенович (1442).
Иван Максимович (1442 - 43).
Иван Лаврентьевич (1443)(1461).
Богдан Есифович (1443 - 44).
Захария Григорьевич (1444).
Василий Степанович (1444 - 45).
Михаил Иванович (1445).
Василий Сокира (1447).
Афанасий Остафьевич Груз (1448)(1461)(1466).
Дмитрий Васильевич Глухов (1450).
Иван Лукинич Щока (1455 - 56)(1456).
Михаил Иванович Туча (1456 - 57).
Алексей Васильевич Казимир (1459 - 60).
Василий Александрович (1460).
Иван Лаврентьевич (1461).
Яков Алексеевич Короб (1460 - 61).
Иван Немир (1461 - 62).
Василий Глазоемцев (1462).
Кузьма Григорьевич (1462 - 63).
Михайло Семенов (1463).
Александр Самсонов (1463 - 64).
Федор Самсонов (1464).
Афанасий Остафьевич (1466).
Дмитрий Исаакович Борецкий (1470 - 71)*
Тимофей Остафьевич (1471).
Марфа Борецкая (Посадница) (фактически 1470 - 78).
Василий Ананьич Голенище (1471)(1475).
Михаил Семенович (1474 - 75).
Фома Андреевич Курятник (1475 - 76)(1477 - 78).
Василий Александрович Казимир (1476 - 77)(факт. 1478).
Захар Овинов (1477)*
1478 присоединение к Московскому государству.

[edit] Map

Does anyone have a map of Novgorod at its peak that could be put here? The Kievan Rus' article has an excellent map, and this article would benefit from one like it. Esn 09:45, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

You could load the map from from ukrainian wiki --A4 12:00, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism!

Smb cuted ru-sib interwiki. It's a ridiculous vandalism - there is no reason to delete ru-sib interwiki, it was quiet correct and siberian project is already adopted in wikipedia.

Please resrore interwiki!--A4 22:45, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

A4, this has been explained to you at your talk at length. The problem with rusib is someone turned a project into a propaganda machine. It needs either closed or cleaned up from ethnic slurs and obsenicities. Until then, links to it won't be tolerated as per: WP:EL. --Irpen 22:49, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Irpen, go fight with the project if you like. Do not fight with it's shadows.--Oleh Petriv 04:44, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Now do you see that it is impossible to discuss gently with these russian wiki "specialists", who don't know Siberian, don't enough respect other peoples' opinions, but want to pry into something that they don't understand &don't like?--Ottorahn 02:21, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Any propaganda. The interwiki is a common thing for the project. The siberian article about Novgorod does not contain either propaganda or things that could be offensive. --A4 10:08, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
They do... only I don't think you saw them... -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 11:21, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
What do you mean we don't know? It's first and foremost a Russian dialect, and with a decent educational background you're able to understand it. -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 11:23, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Whoever is interested in a more detailed analysis of sib-wiki, may check it at user talk:A4. If reading in Ukrainian is difficult to some, you can ommit the Ukrainian paragraphs of that page. --Irpen 20:04, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
But protecting this LEGITIMATE page prevents very legitimate edits from being performed, except by highly-trusted administrators. And why must one be highly trusted to edit this page for legitimate encyclopedia reasons? Lock up the "Siberian language Wikipedia" and shut down it's "propaganda machine", revert any attempts to keep the link in, and let everyone edit the page for POSITIVE CONTRIBUTIONS!!!! Demanding you need to be a very trusted member just to correct a typo is insane. Keep link off, keep RuSib wik down, keep legitimate edits open. Either that or make it a heck of a lot easier to gain adminship or special "edit protected pages" priviledges or something! 170.215.83.212 23:26, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Just I mentioned that the article about Novgorod Republic is not a place for discussion about what siberian language is. Please note, that siberain wikipedia is already working project and it is a part of the whole wikipedia project. Intewiki is a commons practice for wikipedia, so it is a vandalism to delete it. --A4 20:37, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

This talk page is not a discussion on what the Siberian language is and whether it exists. But this talk is a place to discuss the attempts of certain users to link the decent article to the web-sites that promotes obscenities and hate speech. If A4 is willing to take a mission of cleaining the external site from crap, we can discuss linking after that. --Irpen 21:09, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Siberian article about Novgorod Republic do not contain either obscenities or hate speech. Nothing for cleaning-up!--A4 21:38, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Irpen, the web-sites that promotes obscenities and hate speech. that you are referring to are part of wikipedia project. Whether you like it or not - does not authorize you for deletion of any iw links. Except for when you are acting like a vandal. And please ton down your rhetorics here, Mr. MasterOfThisCornerOfWikipedia.--Oleh Petriv 05:55, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Oleh Petriv, I don't care whose part that obscene site is. Links to sites that promote racist views, obscene language, smut masqueraded as amateurish poetry and other crap will not be tolerated. If you think that the Ukrainian Wikicommunity will see it differently when several users push it into uk-wiki, you might get surprised. But anyway, English Wikipedia's reputation cannot be undermined by links to hate sites, be it the Ku Klux Klan, the American Nazi Party the Russian National-Bolshevik Party or UNA-UNSO. Zolotapedia's place in its current shape is among those sites. Clean it up, if it's possible, before linking anything to it. --Irpen 06:12, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I find it rather unnerving that you take on yourself the authority to decide what should be removed on the ground of "undermining English Wikipedia reputation", or even what constitutes "hate sites"; especially since Wikipedia is deliberately not censored. On a side note, en-wiki contains links to all things you've listed as "inappropriate"; e.g. the article on the National-Bolshevik Party has a link to NBP official website, National Socialist Movement (United States) links to NSM headquarters official website, etc. This is precisely the way things should be according to existing WP policies - just because someone finds the linked sites objectionable (for "hate speech" or otherwise), their relevance is not reduced in any way, and the links should be present for those interested in getting all relevant information more so than afraid of being offended.
Now to apply the same principle to the case here. It has long being implied that articles in other wikis on the same subject matter are not only relevant, but links to them deserve a special place on the article page. Thus, an article on Novgorod Republic in "Siberian" is no less revelant than the same article in e.g. Ukrainian; if one is linked, so should be the other. The debate over the actual status of "Siberian", POV-pushing or the lack of such on the part of its creators, and even the quality of Siberian Wikipedia are irrelevant to the matter. Issues relevant to sibwiki should be discussed there, or, better yet, on the removal proposal discussion page. If the community decides that sibwiki should not exist, than it shall be deleted together with all interwiki links to it. But, as long as it exists, the relevant articles from it should be linked to the same as for any other wiki. -- int19h 10:56, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Irpen, English Wikipedia's reputation cannot be undermined, because it is already too low. Thanks to such "curators" like yourself. Therefore new project will be coming to replace it, citizendium. I hope it will have better luck.--Oleh Petriv 19:09, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
If you think that people running Citizendium will approve OR about "Siberian language" and ethnic slurs, you're heavily mistaken. -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 20:10, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

int19h, note, however, that WP links to the hate sites specifically in the articles devoted to such sites and their host organizations rather than from articles about arts or medieval states.

Additionally and for the record and despite Oleh Petriv's ad hominem above, I am also looking forwards to what comes out of Citizendium. It has every chance to succeed since trolls are nationalist are more likely to be kept at bay in the moderated project. --Irpen 00:46, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

This is not your call, WP:EL clearly does not apply here as this is not an external link. Now is there any policy that would allow the deletion of interwiki links based on the quality of articles?
There needs to be order, we can't just have waring gangs going through wikipedia and setting their own rules. As I understand the Siberian wikipedia is now being heavily disscussed on meta, if the community decides it should be closed the iwiki links will be deleted, but until this happens it's vandalism to delete them just as it is for all other iwiki links. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.16.230.249 (talk • contribs) 00:59, 16 November 2006 (UTC).
Irpen, can you please point me to places in Wikipedia rules and guidelines that even use (and define) the term "hate site", and discuss specific issues when dealing with such sources? AFAIK, the only criteria is relevance. An article in Wikipedia in language on the same subject i, biased or not, is considered relevant by default, which is why we have a special place for those links. I've been dealing with a lot of Balkans-related articles in the last few months, and by your logic, many interwiki links on such subjects to Serbian, Croatian, Albanian ... Wikipedias should also be removed. Similarly, many articles in ru-wiki are quite biased, should we also delink them from en-wiki? Are you willing to go ahead and consistently apply that principle to all other Wikipedia projects on all articles? Besides, as the above anonymous comment correctly states, interlanguage wiki links are not normally considered external links. -- int19h 07:29, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

You misunderstood me. I am not saying we should not interwiki because other articles happen to be biased. We should and do interlink to other encyclopedias. Russian, Ukrainian, Serbian and all those wikis are encyclopedias. Most national ones are less NPOV than enwiki indeed but they all contain a lot of encyclopedic content. Zolotapedia contains none of this sort. It's encyclopedic value is useless as Zolotaryov is the only reader and writer of what he calls a sib-lang and the articles of that encyclopedias are either frivolous or offensive. The meta discussion will hopefully bring this disgrace to a closure. If the non-encyclopedic site happens to have an article on Novgorod republic, it does not warrant a link to it. There are articles on history in Nazi sites. We do not link to them. More at user talk:A4. --Irpen 07:51, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

My point is that the very existence of sib-wiki means that it exists with community consensus, unless and until established otherwise (i.e., when the voting to delete sib-wiki finishes, and if "Delete" will be the decision). So your statement that "... [other wikis] all contain a lot of encyclopedic content ... [sib-wiki] contains none of this sort." is, for now, just a personal opinion, and is irrelevant to the issue. Let's not run ahead of the train here and wait until the deletion poll ends. At least, consider that the very fact that the poll exists, and that there are genuine votes against deletion, shows that there is no consensus on this issue just yet. -- int19h 11:30, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ingria

A related vandalism/edit war is going on at Talk:Ingria (and, I guess on hundreds of other pages). -- Petri Krohn 15:25, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Protection

Dear admins who protected this page,

This is going too far.

Let's see: 1. You said that you reverted the adding of interwiki links to ru-sib according to policy on external links, but an interwiki link is not an external link. You may think that a link to ru-sib.wiki is external, because you don't recognize it as a part of the international Wikipedia, but for now Wikimedia foundation has a different opinion.

2. Protecting a whole page just because of a revert war with one editor is way too much. If you think that a certain editor is a vandal, you can block the editor. Protecting the page completely for all editing is totally against the wiki idea.

3. In the particular case of Novgorod, there is nothing stupid or obscene in the article about it in the ru-sib.wiki. If you think that it is a disgrace to link Hamlet to its silly Siberian translation, i actually agree with you - i think that the existence of that particular translation on a Wikipedia is vandalism and i expressed my opinion about it there. But there's nothing obscene in ru-sib:Великой Новгород. If you think that that article has a non-neutral POV or historical inaccuracy, you are welcome to fix it, not to block it or delete it.

Thanks for your attention. --Amir E. Aharoni 08:05, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

By the way, ru-sib links have been pestering more articles, including Kiev and Alexander Suvorov, among others. --Ghirla -трёп- 08:51, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

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