Wikipedia talk:Notice board for India-related topics/India disambiguation discussion

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All Wikipedians are welcome to weigh-in on an issue which is sensitive and has been causing edit wars and problems between Wikipedians.

ISSUE: "India" the historical region is different from the Republic of India. It consisted also of modern Pakistan, Bangladesh, but a search for "India" automatically redirects to the Republic of India. Should there not be a clarification?

Review:


Contents

[edit] From talkpage of user:Spasage

Hi - I appreciate your taking the time to talk about this issue, but please try to understand that there is no nationality or citizenship known as "South Asian" or "British Indian." Iqbal himself talks of "Indian Muslims," and "India." And neither can "Indian subcontinent" be used because its just a broad geographical area that exceedes British India. I appreciate you being civil, and I assure you that I'm not trying to push an Indian nationalist POV. Rama's Arrow 06:49, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

If you see the bio I wrote about Mujibur Rahman, I describe him as an East Pakistani politician before citing him as the founder of Bangladesh. Rama's Arrow 06:50, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
As for due credit, both Jinnah and Iqbal are described as Indians, but immediately given credit for founding and conceiving Pakistan. Its not like their significance is being discounted. Rama's Arrow 06:52, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
You are right, but my point is word Indian or India changed after 1947. Now if we say India, we are talking about present day India. So dont you think, using India or Indian means present day india, which does not include Pakistan or Bangladesh. Can we use some other word? What do you think about it? I feel that using word Indian or India, kind of exclude Pakistani and Bangladeshi from undivided India. They were Indian, but they were part of Undivided India, not present day india. I would like to you comment on it. --Spasage 07:00, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
I've been wanting to discuss this issue collectively with Pakistani and Bangladeshi editors, so as to avoid edit wars and hostilities (and no Pakistan or Indian occupied Wikipedia!). Here's my idea:

The page Indian is a disambiguation - we must simply add the fact that the word "Indian" was used to describe the people who lived in British India, before changing in 1947 to mean only Republic of India. And I will remove the link to India from the bios of Jinnah and Iqbal. Rama's Arrow 07:04, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Indian Subcontinent is term used by wikipedia to refer to fact you are talking about. I think instead of British India, this land was known simply as India and people living here were refer to as Indian, but it was before 1947. I think this fact should be mentioned in both Indian and India pages. Fact that there is difference between present India and India before 1947 is ignored in many articles. Please recommend names for India and Indian before 1947. --Spasage 07:21, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
As of now on the Indian page, both your "Indian subcontinent" and "British India" as different from Republic of India are included in the top 3 definitions. I think this is a pragmatic, clean solution as Wikipedia must follow conventions and not promote new interpretations. Indian subcontinent includes Sri Lanka, Nepal, Bhutan and perhaps Afghanistan, whose people to the best of my knowledge have never been described as "Indian."
If you would like to undertake a deeper analysis and come up with something different, I recommend that we organize a discussion on a subpage of Portal:Asia, and invite amongst others, Indian, Pakistan and Bangladeshi editors to weigh into the issue. Or we can simply ask people like user:Nichalp, user:Ragib and user:Pepsidrinka to drop by and give us their views on your talkpage here itself. Rama's Arrow 07:27, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
What is your suggestion, to describe Indian and Indian before 1947? --Spasage 07:32, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
As I said, the Indian page itself differentiates between "British India" and "India after 1947" - it implies that the word "Indian" has been used to describe different things. As it is in the top 3 definitions, it would serve as a good clarifier. Rama's Arrow 07:35, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm going offline now, so I'd like to just say that I appreciate that your civility and that you took time to discuss this rather sensitive issue with me. There is a need for a general understanding amongst "South Asian" editors about such a question/issue, based on technical facts and convention, and not politics, bias or revisionist history. Rama's Arrow 07:41, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
Ok, so when we mention India before 1947, we can use Indian Subcontinent and when Indian we move to Indian page, there is difination. Is it correct? If it is we can add other user so that same defination is used everwhere. What I understand it is ignored in many articles.

Before 1947

 India -> Indian Subcontinent
 Indian -> Indian, use definations.

After 1947

 India -> India
 Indian -> Indian, use definations.

--Spasage 07:49, 3 July 2006 (UTC)


Correct on count of "Indian." Not so for "India" - one must use what is accurate as per chronology. There is a big difference between the "Indian subcontinent" of the Gupta dynasty, and the "Indian subcontinent" of the Mughals. Prolly the only thing one can use "Indian subcontinent" for is the Indus Valley Civilization and the Indo-Aryans, Vedic civilization.
There is no need to mention that Iqbal was an "Indian Muslim" when the very next sentence talks of him as a philosopher of Islam. Iqbal also shares the most common Muslim name, so its redundant. I only wrote in "Indian Muslim" in Jinnah becoz he was explicitly a Muslim political leader, who disassociated himself with other people. Iqbal is just a poet and Islamic philosopher.
I must also repeat two things: (1) neither South Asia nor Indian subcontinent correlate with with the people known as "Indians," except unless you're going BCE. (2) Iqbal, Jinnah and most others referred to British India as "India," and themselves and others as "Indians." Most encyclopedias and reputable sources describe it as so, so Wikipedia must honor that convention, and while pointing out the technical differences, not attempt to push a new interpretation. Rama's Arrow 11:49, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
My point remains unanswered, is it just to link any person before 1947 to present day India, even if he spent his whole or large part of life in present Pakistan or Bangladesh. Yes you are right, they call them self Indians, but in wikipedia, we are directing them to present day India. This is my point. I am not saying anything else. Take example of Iqbal. How much time he spent in present day Pakistan and how much time he spend in present day India. We can refer him as Indian, but where he was living, where he died, is it present day India. We are doing the same mistake in every other article, by referring to anything, anyplace simply by "India" and linking it to present day India. Don’t you think it is unjust, keeping in mind present day boundaries? As you correctly mentioned definitions of word changes, and I think definition of India should accommodate this fact.

I hope you understand my point, THERE IS DIFFERENCE BETWEEN INDIA OF TODAY AND INDIA BEFORE 1947. --Spasage 05:22, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes I understand your point of DIFFERENCE - I share that outlook and believe that it must be a clearly understood idea. To again answer your point - no the person must not be linked to Republic of India, but to Indian (a disambiguation page) and specifically to the explanation that the people who lived prior to August 15, 1947, were known as Indians but in British India.
Ok, you say Iqbal lived most of his life between Lahore and Sialkot, both now in Pakistan. He should be correctly described as an Indian who lived in British India. But in objection to your latter description - Iqbal lived/worked/spoke and thought about the issues/situation in British India - 75/80 percent of which became India in 1947. His work, political ideas and effect on literature and poetry has a big place in the history and heritage of the Republic of India - Iqbal's work is widely respected in India, and India has close to 140 million Muslims - the people he was addressing his work and opinions. When Iqbal talked, he always spoke of "Indian Muslims," albeit with the connotation that they were a separate nation. This Fire Burns Always 06:21, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
What I'm trying to say in the latter bit is that Iqbal's connection with the Republic of India is not insignificant in comparison with what he has in Pakistan. Similar case is Rabindranath Tagore - he is widely respected in Bangladesh, and even though he cannot be described as a Bangladeshi poet, his connection is no less important. This Fire Burns Always 06:30, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for your reply, I am comfortable with term Indian, because it explains what is difference between present day Indian living in Republic of India and person of historically India, which is described in Indian page as Historically, the Indian subcontinent (also known as Hindustan) or a person or attribute thereof . That’s what I am saying. We need different word for Pakistan-India-Bangladesh before 1947, it can be undivided India, Hindustan, British India or Indian Subcontinent. I think we can use Indian Subcontinent for pre 1947 India. I want your comments on this. Indian is clear. There is not ambiguity; ambiguity is in word India when referring to land before 1947, because it links to present day India. Comment specifically on India and word we can use in articles to identify this land. Thanks. --Spasage 09:38, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] On India

I originally used to get very angry if an editor put in "partition of British India," or "Unified South Asia." This was because most historical works I've read talk of "India" when it comes to the Mughal era, the Indus Valley Civilization or European colonies. Iqbal, Jinnah, Gandhi, Nehru, Patel et all refer to the political entity they lived in as "India."

This is the core situation Wikipedia cannot start referring to "partition of British India" or "British rule in Indian subcontinent" or "South Asia independence movement" because it is against conventional use, original research and neologism. We are here to write facts, not evolve different interpretations. Having said that, I completely agree that we cannot speak of Iqbal as someone who lived in the Republic of India - when we describe him as "Indian," it must be clearly understood that this refers to the British colony.

Now Indian subcontinent or South Asia are definitely (IMO) not good - because they refer also to Sri Lanka, Nepal, the Maldives, Bhutan, Afghanistan. These countries were not associated with the "India" Iqbal lived in - nor are people who live in these countries ever referred to as Indians. The terms themselves are entirely geographical in meaning, thus one cannot say that the someone who lives in Ankara as from the Anatolia, or that a native born in Casablanca is from the Sahara Desert.
I think that a reference to "India" in the time of Iqbal should redirect to India (disambiguation), where just like "Indian" it is explained that the term "India" has been used to describe different political entities, and that India of European colonists is different from the Republic. Alternatively, I don't think we can redirect to British India - my only issue with that is the article does not describe the country of British India, but the "British Raj" political system. And since conventional view is that of British India being a colony, I don't believe that it can be used to describe a nationality.
I think the only solution is to create a page where "India" is thoroughly and precisely explained as not "Republic of India" but a geographic, economic, cultural entity that has existed in the Indian subcontinent under different political entities at different times. I realize this is highly controversial becoz it sounds like India is a nation, but we cannot ignore the historical connections between the hundreds of kingdoms, regions, empires that have inhabited this land, and that in fields of economy, geography, culture there has always been a continuity that politics has not provided.
Perhaps this itself is against convention, a new interpretation. I don't know - I think to solve this problem, we must have a group discussion with other editors. This Fire Burns.....Always 20:40, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
To be mega frank, the sensitivity of the situation arises when Indian editors feel that some Pakistani editors are arguing that there was no "India" ever in history, so as to justify the Two-Nation Theory and disconnect Pakistan's Indian connections. Conversely, some Pakistani editors are irked that by redirecting to the Republic of India, the conventional interpretation imposes the Two-nation theory as invalid for historical purposes. This Fire Burns.....Always 20:44, 5 July 2006 (UTC)


Thanks for your time and openness in discussing this issue. I think best solution is to have a page describing India, which clearly marks difference between India before 1947 (historic) and partition which led to creation of 3 countries in India. I think we should have page like we have for Indian, where India is define. Present day India is moved to Republic of India, and if user like to read about history he can move to different page, like undivided India, Indian subcontinent etc. What you say?

For example, in India disambiguation page:

Reason for talking with you in such detail is, people living in Pakistan and Bandledesh are as Indian as any one living in Republic of India. This is due to simple fact, that they are Indian. If some westerner sees Indian, he cant distinguish between Pakistani, Indian or Bangladeshi. He can say he is India. Also culture, history etc are similar. Variation are there due to people and their choice of living, but fundamentally they all are similar. So, again thanks for you time. Please comment. --Spasage 07:49, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with your idea completely. However, I've asked some other editors to weigh in on this, as we can't make such a big move without general consensus. This Fire Burns.....Always 08:47, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Disambiguation pages are not a good idea as they increase the work for both the editors as well as the readers. I have gone through the above discussion and I only see a "solution in search of a problem." It is highly uncalled for. Also, the right place to discuss this would be WT:INWNB. --Gurubrahma 09:00, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Would "a _________ from unpartitioned India" do good? I know its contrived, but can't we use that for the sake of political correctness? -- Sundar \talk \contribs 09:07, 6 July 2006 (UTC)


Unpartitioned India is not bad. Gurubrahma I again stress on the same point that everyone living in Pakistan, India (present day), Bangledesh own (whole) India as much as today’s India owns it. Ghandi, Jinnah, Iqbal, Nehru all were Indian, but that India was undivided. We are taking away from them, huge part of land, culture, heritage by just confining them to present day India (Republic of India). I think, for correctness, we should have disamg for India, like we have for Indian. I think it will do justice with everyone living in pre-partition India (today’s Pakistan, Republic of India, and Bangladesh). Yes, we can have discussion on it; we can also invite members from Pakistan and Bangladesh. But this discussion should take place with open mind not to push agenda. To avoid any confusion I state what I am saying again and I would like everyone to comment.

India after 1947 consists of three countries, Pakistan, India and Bangladesh. When we use word India, in articles, refereeing to whole India, links are such that they bring us to present day India (Republic of India), reducing size of pre-1947 India considerably. Is it possible that when we refer to pre-1947 India we use a term which encompasses whole India not just present day India? Please comment.

I hope members from Pakistan, India and Bangladesh will take this in good spirit and find come to a good conclusion. --Spasage 09:45, 6 July 2006 (UTC)


Following are options:

--Spasage 11:31, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps it would be some help to take a look at the arrangement on the China article:

The term British India can be used only from 1858 to 1947. deeptrivia (talk) 13:14, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

This is a good idea ... I haven't gone through all the discussion above, but having china-esque disambig pages are necessary. I find it increasingly confusing when India as the modern country is often linked to articles or wikilinks actually indended to mean India the geographic region. Definitely, any person who lived before 1947, such as Tagore, Iqbal, etc. were "Indian", and from "india", but here the word points to the historic region, or may be the British colony, which is a superset of the current day country. We need a clear way to point that out. The discussion above is a step in the right direction. Thanks. --Ragib 14:17, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
There was no India before 1947. That was why Gandhi was assassinated in the first place! For all articles about events during 1857-1947, I prefer the word British South Asia in the same vein as French West Africa, Dutch East Indies,.. This is because though Pakistan and Afghanistan were included in the Anglo administration during this period, their cultural milieu was more closer to Safavid Persia than Hindustan. Also, remember Russia still had significant interests in this theatre.
For articles about events during 957-1857, I prefer the word Hindustan or Al-Hind. This conforms to the language used unanimously by Middle Eastern scholarship then. Anwar 19:33, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
That, my friend, is a bit too much! There was obviously a region considered to be "India" in English and other European languages. Columbus DID sail westward trying to find that. British South Asia isn't correct either ... they had the whole Afghanistan, India, Pakistan, Bengal, Nepal, Burma Sri Lanka etc. under that.
The crux of my argument or my point is that, when talking about persons of the period pre-1947, the word "Indian" is fine when considering the greater region generally known as India, but not the modern post 1947 country called Republic of India. Perhaps something like India (region) may be considered? Calling "British India" is not ok, because officially, the British didn't controll all of India, the princely states were separate though dependent, and but yet, they were part of India, the region.
So, perhaps, as Spasage and others commented above, people in pre-1947 days, let the person be Hindu or Muslim or Buddhist or Sikh, were all Indians (meaning a native of India as a region). Sure, Sheikh Mujibur Rahman was born in India (meaning the region), so was Muhammad Iqbal, Mahatma Gandhi, and Rabindranath Tagore and so on. And pre-1947, there was no pakistan, Bangladesh, Republic of India ... rather a greater region to which all three countries belonged. So, adding ownership of people dying before 1947 to any particular country is something we should not do. Hence, Iqbal, Tagore etc. are all Indians when we are talking about the region, but not (Republic of India)ns, (the modern country). Let's settle this thing and end the divisive edit wars in Iqbal/Tagore pages. --Ragib 20:19, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
China is a special case because of the fact that both Taiwan (Republic of China) and China (People's Republic of China) are called China NOW. There is no other place that is currently called India apart from the Republic of India. In my opinion, China should be a page about the PRC because that's what most people would want when looking for it.
We can have a separate disambig page at India_(disambiguation) (there probably should be one already) and link to it from the India page. References of Muhammad Iqbal being an Indian should go to British India in my opinion. Hope my input helped :) Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 20:57, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I like the way the China situation is set up, though I think I find myself in the minority. IMO, India should discuss the historical land known as India and the current India page should be moved to Republic of India. I do agree that something must be done in order to disambiguate the term more appropriately, as the situation now is misleading. Pepsidrinka 00:16, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I am very pleased to read all above comments, because they are in right direction. One fact on which, we all agree is that India before partition (1947) and after (1947) partition cannot be same. So, we cannot link article to present day India (Republic of India) when discussing pre-partition India, as Ragib, User:Pepsidrinka and others pointed out correctly. So, we should have India (disambiguation) page, as China (disambiguation) have. It describes India, historically and present day Republic of India. Also, it should mention Bangladesh and Pakistan and their link with India. I hope no one will disagree with India (disambiguation), it will be a good starting point. For reference please visit America, it is some what similar to what we are discussing. Please comment on India (disambiguation). --Spasage 05:34, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

We need a page India (disambiguation), as per the above. When the general population is looking for India, the vast majority are looking for Republic of India, so I think that India should stay as such, but with a disambiguation header:
For historical and other uses of India, please see India (disambiguation)

-- Samir धर्म 06:19, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

The only thing that a person who types in India into the search box is looking for is for the Republic of India. I totally endorse the creation of an India (dab) page with an {{otheruses}} template on top of the India page. The article India should contain info on the modern-day Republic. --May the Force be with you! Shreshth91($ |-| ŗ 3 $ |-| ţ |-|) 20:08, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Just to say there's another example of organising multiple geographical / cultural entities at Britain (re Great Britain, United Kingdom, Wales, etc). It'd guess most people typing "Britain" in a search box are actually looking for the United Kingdom, but having an explanatory dab-like page alerts people to the different entities they might want and helps avoid offence. I'd prefer moving Republic of India to that name and having India as the dab, per America. Basically I completely agree with This Fire Burns.....Always , above. JackyR | Talk 12:26, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Next step

Hi Spasage - sorry to convert your talkpage to the village pump! Yes the talks do look good, but I agree with Gurubrahma that the discussion should be moved to a sub-page of Portal:Asia. This Fire Burns.....Always 05:38, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I have no issue, it should be moved. --Spasage 05:41, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sundar's take

  • I oppose converting India into a disambiguation page because, the name India most popularly associated with the modern day Republic of India. However, I'm ok with an {{otheruses}} template at the top of the article linking to a disambiguation page. There are hundreds of precedents for this.
  • Though I prefer Indian to be used to describe pre-1947 Indians, I can accept undivided India as a compromise. However, I would certainly not agree with either south asian or "from Indian subcontinent]]" as it's entirely misleading.
I too agree that it is ok to have India as the page for the modern country of Republic of India, this is because when people type India, they are most probably looking for the modern country. As suggested in earlier sections, India (disambiguation) can be set up. Also, describing pre-1947 people as "from Undivided India" sounds ok (however, questions arise on how do you handle someone from Goa? Surely, that is not covered in Partition of India, Goa being a portuguese colony until 1961. But it seems a nice option. ) --Ragib 06:20, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
No one wants to convert India into disambiguation. We'll separate page India (disambiguation). Republic of India will have its page India. --Spasage 06:28, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Why not expand Indian subcontinent to include the political connotations? btw, there seems to be something wrong with WP, some bug or so. Samir had signed but his sig isn't showing. --Gurubrahma 06:47, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] India (disambiguation)

I have just created page India (disambiguation) to avoid confusion. It is totally separate page. India, moder Republic is intact. --Spasage 06:34, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cribananda's comments

  • India should obviously talk about the Republic of India. It cannot lead to a disambiguation page. However, a header with a link to a disambiguation page might be useful. Check out the article on Rome.
  • When the person can easily be linked to a present-day country in the Indian sub-continent, he/she must be referred to as such. For example, X was born in Lahore, which is in present-day Pakistan...rather than, say, X was born in undivided India. If this is not obvious, then other terms such as ancient India, British India can be used.

- Cribananda 06:35, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

One option which in my opinion should be pretty satisfying to all sides is to mention his nationality as Indian and lead the redirect to British Raj Indian.

Omerlives 12:57, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nichalp's comment

I think it's just making a mountain out of a molehill. India was the land that Columbus wanted to reach, and India still makes up a greater portion of South Asia. Pakistan and Bangladesh were cut off from India, but the name India remained (unlike USSR/Russia). You also can't compare India with China because China consists of one nation, two governments. Take a look at other locations from which territories were carved up eg. Ethiopia. Coming closer home, we have Madhya Pradesh, Uttar Pradesh and Bihar all talking about their current geographical area. For the dab, I'd go with Sundar's/Cribananda's suggestions. =Nichalp «Talk»= 17:50, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Please check India (disambiguation). --Spasage 05:19, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately this issue is causing edit wars and some bad blood. I had been hoping for an opportunity to have such a discussion, and thanks to Spasage, it materialized. For example, I was absolutely outraged when I read a mention to a "unified South Asia" as the goal of the Congress in Pakistan (which I removed). The issue is real because there are technical differences between the political entities that compose(d) India, that an encyclopedia cannot leave to general perception. I mean, when real people have questions/problems regarding this, they would look to sources like ours to decide what's right from wrong. This is a pragmatic method to resolve problems, better to be done now than later. This Fire Burns.....Always 05:25, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
While Wikipedia must not promote new interpretations or revisionist history, its important that we have a common understanding of this issue. As Jimbo Wales said on the userbox debate, we are Wikipedians here, advocates elsewhere. So we must find a common framework. This Fire Burns.....Always 05:28, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ragib's comment

In addition to the small snippets of replies I posted above, let me discuss the main issue here. Sure, there was a single geographic region known as India. Many famous people, politicians, scientists, poets were born there. Now, suppose someone from the region of Bengal, who died prior to Partition of India. How would you classify that person? If you say, "Indian" as referring to the modern country, that is not correct. The correct phrase here would be "Indian" as referring to the historic region. If the logic is that "Republic of India" inherited everything associated with the name "India", that would be a fallacy, because Pakistan or Bangladesh didn't came out of nowhere in a second Big Bang. If The modern country India inherited everything related to the name India, Bangladesh, under the same logic, would have inherited everything related to the name "Bengal", right? NO!

So, I like Rama's arrow and Spasage's compromise here to have the disambig page. Just to give a background of why this might be necessary, please see Rabindranath Tagore and Muhammad Iqbal. Two of the greatest poets of the Indian subcontinent. I'm not well versed in Iqbal's literature, but Tagore was a humanist, and a very much anti-nationalist ... he considered himself as a citizen of the world. To assign tags on him would have stirred his ashes ... so to speak. You can't really claim a person for a country he never saw! For people dying pre-1947, calling them Indian or Bangladeshi or Pakistani , when referring to the modern countries, is not an accurate statement in any way. (I had mistakenly argued in this way in Tagore's page, but I have changed my views).

Anyway, I hope we can reach a consensus, rather than trying to rewrite history, and bickering over identities of people. The discussion in this page shows a step in the right direction. Thanks. --Ragib 07:37, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spasage's comment

Before partition (1947) every one living in undivided India called every part of India as his own, even if some one was living in Bangladesh or Pakistan part of undivided India. But now, we have confined almost everyone to either India or any other small part. This is great mistake and injustice we are doing. Hindus or Muslim or Christian used to call Undivided India there home country by simply calling it India (again undivided India). I think it should remain like this for them. They were free to go from Dhaka to Lahore and that was there status (read without visa), a status of Citizen of India, not reduced one which we try to give them or I must say enforce on them. We should identify them with country they call it. Some called it India, some called it Hindustan.

Also good name for India before 1947 can be Undivided India. I am happy we have made some progress but I think a lot needs to be done, only after it we can give people of undivided India (pre 1947) their true Identity. Citizen of Great India, rich in culture. One last request I would like to make is, please contribute in good faith. India, Pakistan, Bangladesh will remain as it is. We are simply adding what was missing. --Spasage 10:22, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] EUREKA!

Hi - I'm not in my bathtub right now, but I think I've got a good idea. There is no article called Indian people - THERE SHOULD BE! After all, the people of India are very heterogenous and there is a lot of inter-mixing going on so it is necessary to have an article at that level. Its important to address how India's people are a common identity beyond ethnic lines.

This will help us solve the problem. We can explain in the lead that an "Indian" meant this, this and this in different periods of history. Lemme know what you think. This Fire Burns.....Always 03:18, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Great idea that fixes the right problem in the right way, IMO. But, from my limited experience with Tamil people (primarily edited by Arvind), I know it'll be hard. -- Sundar \talk \contribs 07:10, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
It is good idea to explain what an Indian mean during different periods of history. --Spasage 06:11, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

That wouldn't work because there is more than enough confusion, ambiguity and controversy as to who or what comprises Indian. There is no such thing as Indian people unless one is talking about people of the modern Republic of India and Demographics of India already suffices that criteria. The word India has diferent connotations to it and different meaning attached at different historical periods. Indian peoples is also not an equivalent for Indian subcontinent as that term itself is very vague like Arabian peninsula, Eurasia, Indian Ocean etc.

There is already a page dealing with Indo-Aryans which because of linguisitic definitions can pan various different peoples by virtue of linguistic (not political, religious, racial, historical, geographical,cultural) affiliations. Hence there is no need for any page for Indian peoples.

I think the best way to describe a persons individual identity is to describe him according to the historical name of the area of the time and how it was seen or described at the time. For example, Machiavelli is deccribed as a Florentine not as an Italian or Roman and Charlemagne is a Frank and not a Roman or French or German (He was Germanic) etc.. Redirecting a hyperlinked word identity to a page which would describe or further dilineate an identity can also be used as in Indian (clickon Indian plaease). Prolly the India disambiguation page is one of the fine satisfying options as well. Omerlives 13:01, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

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