Talk:Northumbrian smallpipes
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[edit] Name
Most Northumbrian websites seem to have it as "smallpipes," not "smallpipe." Badagnani 07:03, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
- Agreed, but as with most types of bagpipe, if you actually asked someone which they preferred, they would probably consider it an a level with questions like "Do you prefer your tables cooked or raw?". Calum 12:33, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
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- Terminology is a running problem throughout the piping pages. One of the biggest problems is the use of non-English language to categorise types of bagpipe: many of these simply mean 'bagpipe'. The plural/singular question is another area of potential confusion. Speaking as a piper, there are certain ways to use the singular or plural that definitely 'feel' wrong, and there are some that are agnostic. When naming a particular kind of bagpipe, I would use the singular (as here), but in talking about my own set I would talk about my pipes. Calum 20:35, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Changed Northumberland to Northumbria. Northumberland and Northumbria are _not_ the same, but are infact two different areas. The name of the pipes is Northumbrian Pipes, not Northumberland Pipes. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 144.32.128.155 (talk • contribs) 13:19, 9 May 2006.
Northumberland is a modern county - Northumbria was a much larger Anglo-Saxon kingdom. 'Northumbria' is only used loosely for the region including Northumberland and Tyneside. But 'Northumbrian'is now pretty standard as the adjective describing things from this region. JohnGibbons 23:54, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Repeated change: Changed Northumberland to Northumbria. Northumberland and Northumbria are _not_ the same, but are infact two different areas. The name of the pipes is Northumbrian Pipes, not Northumberland Pipes.
Please do not change the article without discussing your changes or citing your sources. Thanks. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Eponymous one (talk • contribs) 17:28, 28 May 2006.
- I'd always thought that (a) 'Northumbrian' was the adjective relating to Northumberland, and (b) the use of 'Northumbria' to refer to Northumberland + County Durham + associated unitary authorities was mainly a Tourist Board usage. It's also worth remembering that Newcastle is in the traditional county of Northumberland. However, you're right in saying that they're played extensively outside the county of Northumberland - I'd changed it in an attempt to make the opening sentence sound less as if it was stating the obvious, and if I cut County Durham out of the picture it was unintentional. Nonetheless I don't think this article is the place for discussion of what Northumbria means (that's what the link is for), so I've made the geographical reference more general with a reference to England - especially useful as most people think bagpipes are the exclusive preserve of Scotland! -- Blisco 00:24, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Technically, Newcastle is not 'in' Northumberland - there is a boundary between them. It has had its own corporation for centuries. JohnGibbons 23:54, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] About Northumbria
Source definition: www.dictionary.com:
North·um·bri·an Pronunciation Key (nôr-thmbr-n) adj.
1. Of or relating to Northumbria or its Old English dialect. 2. Of or relating to the former or present-day county of Northumberland in northeast England.
As one can see, the definition can be used to describe Northumbria as well as Northumberland.
Therefore it is not correct to say that the pipes are from and played in Northumberland only.
Source: wiki page on Northumbria:
"The name reflects that of the southern limit to the kingdom's territory, which was the River Humber.."
also
"At its greatest the kingdom extended from the Humber to the Forth. The later earldom was bounded by the River Tees in the south and the River Tweed in the north (broadly similar to the modern North East England) and was recognised as part of England by the Anglo-Scottish Treaty of York in 1237."
Unless anyone has evidence to the contrary, the information regarding origins should not be changed. -Eponymous
- That argument is competely illogical. You might as well say: "the dictionary defines Highland as: 1. Relating to elevated land. 2. Relating to the Scottish Highlands. As one can see, the definition can be used to describe any high ground, not just in Scotland. Therefore it is not correct to say that the Highland pipes are from and played in the Scottish Highlands only." Dictionaries give all accepted meanings of a term, and you can't select the one you like best in order to support your own thesis.
- Besides, nobody's arguing that the Northumbrian pipes are played only in the modern county of Northumberland. Like the Highland pipes, the NSP is played all over the world, but with a concentration of players not only in Northumberland, but in the whole of NE England (Northumbria, if you will). Similarly, the Highland pipes originated in the Scottish Highlands, but are today associated with Scotland as a whole, and also have players worldwide. It's as ridiculous to claim that because there are pipers in Edinburgh and Glasgow the Highland pipes are therefore not "from the Highlands" as it is to claim that they come from the Highlands of Ethiopia or where have you.
- In any case, we don't need to resort to the dictionary to determine where the pipes are from. According to the Northumbrian Pipers Society website, "The current form of the pipes was developed by makers in Newcastle-on-Tyne and North Shields towards the end of the 18th century". While it may be debated whether or not those places are or were in Northumberland (the Association of British Counties certainly think they are [1]), the Northumbrian Smallpipes Encyclopedia gives the distinct impression that the early development of the NSP took place in Northumberland proper. [2] [3]
- Having made my case I'd rather avoid a petty dispute over terminology, so I've edited the opening paragraph to avoid all reference to anywhere beginning with Northumb. Hardly a satisfactory solution, but I hope I've left a version that no-one will disagree with. -- Blisco 22:21, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
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- I object! They're played on the Scottish side of the Border too! In all seriousness, it's a good solution. Calum 19:42, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Supplemental
I fail to see whats illogical about my arguement.
- Your argument is illogical for the reason I gave above. If that isn't enough, here's another example. I live in Cambridge, Cambridgeshire. Suppose I invent a new instrument, and call it the Cambridge hurdy-gurdy after its place of invention. It is taken up by musicians all over the world, but especially in Cambridge, Massachusetts. You then claim that it originated in the USA, on the basis that 1) there are players there, and 2) Wikipedia states that there are other uses of the name Cambridge, therefore it's not correct to say that the Cambridge hurdy gurdy comes from Cambridge in England. Your argument above is like that: you're basically saying "the Northumbrian pipes come from Northumbria, not Northumberland: they must do because the dictionary says that the word Northumbrian relates to Northumbria, not just Northumberland." Another example: the White Rhinoceros is grey, not white. A dictionary will tell you what colour white is, but to find out what colour the rhino is you need to look at the rhino, not the dictionary. Is that any clearer?
Also, it's incorrect to say that Newcastle and North Shields are in Northumberland. I know for a fact that they are part of Tyne & Wear, which is NOT Northumberland.
SO I guess your arguement could suggest we call the pipes "Tyne & Wear Pipes".
- Tyne and Wear has only existed since 1974. The Northumbrian pipes have existed for 200 years in their present form alone. Before 1974 Newcastle and North Shields may not have been controlled by Northumberland County Council (they were County boroughs), but they were certainly considered part of Northumberland. (That's what I meant by "it may be debated whether or not those places are or were in Northumberland" above). Read Tyne and Wear#Identity - here are the most relevant bits:
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- The metropolitan county crosses the traditional border between Northumberland, and County Durham: the River Tyne. Newcastle upon Tyne and North Tyneside are in north of it, and Gateshead, Sunderland and South Tyneside are in the south. [...] Some organisations do not use Tyne and Wear as a county, instead retaining the traditional boundary between Northumberland and County Durham. [...] Additionally, administrative convenience, demographics and loyalty mean that many sporting organisations also use the traditional boundary; For example, the Northumberland Football Association is based in Newcastle upon Tyne, as is the minor counties Northumberland County Cricket Club and its four regular grounds.
- You don't change the name of something just because boundaries or geographical names change. We don't talk about Iranian cats or Thai twins any more than Tyne and Wear pipes. Liverpudlians still talk about the East Lancs Road even though it now goes to Greater Manchester. If you want further explanation of how former county divisions can still be used even though they don't appear on the map, see Traditional counties of the British Isles.
This further re-enforces my point that "Northumbrian" from "Northumbrian Pipes" refers to the NE as a whole, not just Northumberland.
- Eponymous
- I think it's been fairly well established that the NSP as we know it was developed in Northumberland - not exclusively the modern administrative county, but certainly the traditional county of which Newcastle has long been considered a part. It's up to you to come up with evidence that the pipes originated or were significantly developed (not just played or made) in County Durham, Gateshead, Sunderland, South Shields, or anywhere else that could be considered Northumbria but has never been part of Northumberland.
