Talk:Northern cities vowel shift

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Hello, phoneticians! This article would be a lot more understandable (and useful) to us non-phoneticians if the language were less technical (describing anatomical movements of the voice mechanism in common language) and specifically the sounds were expressed in terms of changes of pronounciation of common words. A fascinating topic, by the way. Thanks,--Pharos 06:06, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)


Explaining the changes of sounds by common words is totally useless, and this article discusses why: If we say that [æ] is the sound in 'cat', then the people who have had this shift will think we're talking of [iæ], whereas New Zealanders will think we mean [e]. (A different sound shift has occured in the Antipodes, with /I/ 'kit' either centralised (in NZ; to a sound more like the A of 'about') or made tenser (in Au; to a sound more like European i than American i is); consequently, or perhaps to cause it, the vowel of 'ket(tle)' and 'cat' have moved to higher positions, and the vowel of 'cut' is in a more fronted position. The change is more progressed in NZ than Au; I'm an Aussie, and to me, American 'guess' often sounds like my 'gas', and NZ 'gas' sounds like my 'guess'. What complexity!) For all speakers are born under the domination of the moon, which is never steadfast but ever wavering: Waxing one season but waning and decreasing the next. Certainly it is hard to please everyone because of the diversity and change of language. (I have a habit of overusing that quote, albeit modified.) Felix the Cassowary 07:20, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

However, I'm at a loss as to what is meant by '/V/ is backed' in the Article. If /V/ could have been backed, what vowel was it before? [V] is a back vowel to begin with. Felix the Cassowary 07:20, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

In the non-existent "default" dialect of Standard English, the vowel of "cut" and so on, though usually identified as /V/, is generally between center and back, not fully back. So if /V/ is backed from its default position, it's moving closer to true cardinal [V]. I think it may pick up a bit of rounding along the way too, though. AJD 08:23, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

What is the example "ket" supposed to be? That's not an English word. Kesuari's comment seems to indicate that the word was supposed to be kettle? --Barfooz (talk) 17:32, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Of course ket is a word. According to the disambig page it's at least three different words, in fact. None of the common, perhaps, but words nonetheless. --Angr/tɔk tə mi 18:24, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Alright, sheesh... --Barfooz (talk) 20:11, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Where'd Minneapolis come from?

Quote from external links "characteristic of cities like Chicago, Detroit, Cleveland, and Buffalo. Some aspects of it are detectable farther afield, in cities like Milwaukee, Pittsburgh, Columbus, and Indianapolis."

Another of the external links specifically uses the Northern Cities Shift to define a linguistic region (i.e. the region is the area where this shift is taking place) called Inland North, and then shows maps which define the boundaries of this region. These boundaries include the cities mentioned in the first paragraph (Syracuse, Cleveland, Detroit, and Chicago). They definitely do not include Minneapolis, or St. Louis for that matter.

I propose that Minneapolis and St. Louis be removed from the article, unless proof of their inclusion in the shift is shown.


Minneapolis is definitely included in the vowel shift. Have you ever heard the way they speak there? Maybe St. Louis doesn't belong. I'm not too sure on that one. --Lord Voldemort (Dark Mark) 20:12, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Whether Minneapolis is included or excluded needs to be determined on the basis of published research, not subjective impressions like "Have you ever heard the way they speak there?". --Angr/tɔk tə mi 20:35, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

No, clearly I understand that, I was joking. --Lord Voldemort (Dark Mark) 20:53, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I have heard the way they speak there, which is why I question Minneapolis's inclusion. Neilmsheldon 21:18, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

I live 95 miles east of Minneapolis and 300 miles northwest of downtown Chicago. While I have definitely heard people whose speech quite effectively demonstrates the existence of this phenomenon, not only does it not characterize Minneapolis English, it doesn't characterize Chicago English either. In my experience it's an affectation in some peoples' speech, but certainly not a majority anywhere. I suspect what I hear as condescension in Lord Voldemort's assertion is actually a result of a lack of understanding of what the Northern cities vowel shift addresses. A common feature of upper Midwestern from central Wisconsin westward through the Dakotas is a change from /ɑ/ to /a/ or /ɐ/ in some positions. This, however, is quite different (and much more widespread in the affected area) than the NCVS, which asserts that this single change is part of a much more extensive shift. In case anyone is interested in a bit more on how "they speak there", check out my little manifesto. Tomertalk 17:11, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
According to the "Linguistic Atlas of North American English", St. Louis does belong, as shown on the map. The surrounding area speaks the Midland dialect, but the St. Louis region speaks the Northern dialect. Also, all of Minnesota, except for the Northern area (which speaks North Central American English) portion speak the Northern (NCVS) dialect. The Northern dialect extends as far as eastern North Dakota. To the North and West of the areas shown with the brown line are the following dialects which are quite distinct: the North Central dialect, and the Western US/Canadian dialect which are characterised by the absence of the Northern Cities vowel shift, because this shift is not possible when the vowels in words like "cot" and "caught" are pronounced the same way and perceived to be the same vowel. Instead, the vowels are shifted in the opposite direction: caught/cot -> caught; map -> mop, ket -> cat. This can even lead to misunderstandings for someone travelling from for example, Windsor, ON; to Detroit, MI, and asking for a "map" [map] ("map" [æ] shifts to "mop" [a] w/the Canadian Shift ), since [map] sounds like "mop" to someone from the Northern dialect, but like "map" to someone from Canada, the far West, and the North Central area.

Greetingz 04:50, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Audio files?

Hello phoneticians! Another civilian here, who lives in a Northern City, interested in finding out what this Great Northern Shift is all about, and especially what it *sounds* like. The article's "...shifted from IPA [ɛ], [ʌ], [ɔ], [ɑ], [æ] to [ə], [ɔ], [ɑ], [a], [iæ]..." tells me nothing. Zero. Zip. How about some sound clips to actually hear it? Jedwards01 02:05, 17 November 2005 (UTC) Minneapolis, Minn.

It says that we pronounce things cornily, specifically that what is spelled X is pronounced Y (X→Y) thus: bed→bud (although with a schwa (/ə/), kind of like b'd, if you can imagine, rather than with a short "uh" (/ʌ/) sound); bud→baud; baud→bod; bod→bad (although not quite like bad which has the much broader /æ/ sound rather than either /ɑ/ or /a/); bad→bee-add (which is just ridiculous...sorry, I can't think of a pair that demonstrates how this difference sounds…just imagine inserting a "long e" (what they teach you in first grade is an "ē", but is really an [i]) in there) It could be that the article is asserting that we say bad→byad, which is equally silly. Tomertalk 17:50, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
Actually, from what I've heard of the NCVS has [æ]→[ɛʌ], not [æ]→[iæ]. Tomertalk 19:04, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] external links

I removed the link to the Detroit News article bcz it wasn't working. The title apparently said that ppl in the northern US have nasal accents, which I don't think is really "news" to anyone, nor particularly relevant to this article (which doesn't have anything to do with nasalization). If that newspaper article will load at some point in the future, or if someone has the text somewhere and can quote the relevant parts here, please verify that the article is actually relevant before reinserting a link to it.

The PBS article is of rather dubious value since (a) it contains incorrect information and (b) says nothing [correct] that this article doesn't.

The UPenn article[1] is a bit more useful, although it pretty clearly says in the Arizona article that the NCVS is only found in traces in a few other cities outside the "Inland North" (none of which are Minneapolis and certainly not as far north as Brainerd, despite the indication that speakers exhibiting the shift were found in both), which its own map shows ending within suburban Chicago at the western extreme. I continue to highly suspect that the shift is as widespread in the "Inland North" as it's being made out to, and think it instead affects a specific age-group within a specific socio-economic class.

okéi, ái m dan bitxigh äbàut it fär náu. óf tä mor pärdàktïv éríaz... Tomertalk 19:36, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NCVS variants

At least here in Milwaukee, there seems to be a clear set of vowel shifts which seems to be related or analogous to the classical NCVS, but which at the same time is very distinct from such. Such would take the form of: [æ] → [ɛ], [ɛ] → [ɜ], [ɪ] → [ɨ], [o] → [o̠], ([ʌ] → [ɑ]), [ɑ] → [a], and ([a] → [æ]). Note that the arrows only indicate the directions of the individual shifts, and not that the shifts have actually clearly reached the distination positions in any consistent or clear fashion. Also note that the shifts in parentheses are rather marginal, in the case of [ʌ] → [ɑ] only markedly occurring in very unstressed (like in the interjection/filler word um) or extremely informal speech, and the shift [a] → [æ] only occurring in very unstressed/informal speech in the word ja, which is the only word that could be considered to have /a/ rather than /æ/ or /ɑ/ here (except in individuals for which such is learned, such as my mother, which may have /ɑ/ for such), being a German loanword here (but also a North Germanic loanword in other areas of Wisconsin).

What makes this distinct from the classical NCVS is that historical [æ] is not diphthongized at all and is shifted to a lax position, the tense vowel historical [o] is affected, being backed but not lowered, and the lax vowel [ɔ] is completely unaffected. In particular, this shift differs from the classical NCVS in its treatment of the back vowels [ɔ] and historical [o] and in its lack of diphthongization of historical [æ]. One note, though, is that it would not be surprising if the shift [ɑ] → [a] were separate from and likely predating the NCVS, and may very well be at least partially coincidental (even though it may have helped "push" [æ]), since it has occurred in other areas where the NCVS has/had not a very significant influence, as mentioned above, and furthermore could be potentially ascribed to substratum influence, like many other local phonological features such as full word-final devoicing, word-initial interdental "hardening", having purely monopthongal tense vowels in almost all positions, and having very round historical [o] and [u].

Actually, I have to modify that, as what occurs to [æ] is actually more complex. It either diphthongizes or just shifts, depending on the overall level of stress which it is subject to, diphthongizing as [ɛæ] or sometimes [eæ] when more stressed and simply shifting to [ɛ] when less stressed. Note that many grammar words such as can and am invariably shift to [ɛ] except when quite markedly stressed, and many most non-grammar words as well as certain grammar words like can't have [ɛæ] in stressed syllables except when unstressed as a whole. This is probably simply a matter of how stressed such words are generally realized, and is consistent with how can is generally less stressed than can't in North American English.
As for why I wrote what I wrote previously, it is simply due to [ɛæ] being hard to perceive as a diphthong due to only having a rather short glide for a diphthong; compare to the only weakly diphthongal [eɪ] and [oʊ] that one many not too infrequently hear in NAE dialects. Travis 22:51, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

22:51 Consequently, this begs the question of whether other areas of the Upper Midwest have vowel shifts similar to the classical NCVS yet which have significant variations from it beyond merely variations in degree or completeness, especially with respect to how historical [æ] is realized and with respect to which back vowels are involved. This is further begged by that it seems that most research on the NCVS pertains primarily to areas further afield to the east, such as Michigan, Indiana, and Ohio, rather than the western Upper Midwest, such as Wisconsin, Minnesota, and even North Dakota; I myself have heard that the NCVS is definitely present in much of Minnesota today at least amongst younger people, even if it is a more recent development than the presence of the NCVS in other areas of the Upper Midwest. Of course, all of this would require actual scholarly research on the subject for inclusion in the article here, which seems to be rather lacking with respect to the western Upper Midwest. - Travis 11:46, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Joe Flanigan

I removed this paragraph for discussion:

The NCVS can be heard in the speech patterns of a number of popular television actors, including in the idiolect of Joe Flanigan in his rôle as John Sheppard of Stargate Atlantis fame. As a Losangelino, his NCVS speech exemplifies the fact that the name of the phenomenon [i.e. Northern Cities], is a matter of convenient generalization far more than one of authoritative geographical linguistics; since the phenomenon is clearly far more widespread, and the primary importance of its name is found in the "cities" part of its appellation rather than in the "northern" part.

because it smacks of original research, and also I wonder what aspects of Flanigan's speech are considered to show the NCVS. If he pronounces /æ/ as [eə] before nasals (stand = [steənd]), that's part of the California Vowel Shift too. Does he have æ-tensing before oral consonants? Does he front /ɑ/ and back /ɛ/ to the point where they have very close F2s? Those characteristics have to be present too before it can be said he has the NCVS. (And have to be verifiably attested in a citable source before being added here.) Angr/talk 12:55, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Brainerd

There's a serious flaw here in including Brainerd. The cited article indicates that one speaker in Brainerd exhibits the shift, without any discussion of why that might be so. The article in question indicates a number of speakers much further afield who do as well, why not mention those as well? Insisting on keeping Brainerd in the article when the cited sources indicate that most people in Brainerd do not exhibit the shift is not only really bad writing, it's bad scholarship. Tomertalk 17:57, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Which cited sources indicate most people in Brainerd do not exhibit the shift? Angr/talk 19:11, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I don't remember where I got it from. According to this map, taken from the Labov et. al article, however, it should be pretty clear that the shift doesn't extend to Brainerd or Bemidji despite the fact that someone observed it there. It's also been observed according, to that map, in Jamestown, ND, yet that's not included in the article, as well as in [I assume] Hartford, CT and St. Louis, MO. My gripe isn't that this is mentioned in the article, but rather that the article seems to imply that the shift is prevalent outside the "inland north", while the Labov material indicates that it's not even complete within the inland north. Tomertalk 00:56, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Anyway, I've rewritten on the basis of the maps in the ANAE, which are more up-to-date than that map. ANAE considers there to be three basic acoustic parameters that define the NCVS and each has its own isogloss (and its own inscrutable abbreviation):
  • The UD isogloss: The F2 of /ʌ/ is less than the F2 of /ɑ/, i.e. /ʌ/ is backer than /ɑ/. This is very widespread, including RI, CT, Scranton PA, upstate NY, Cleveland, Toledo, Lower Peninsula MI, Gary IN, northern IL, all of WI and MN, northern IA, and northwestern SD. It's also found in St. Louis and Springfield IL, but not the cities between Springfield and Chicago, like Peoria.
  • The ED isogloss: The F2 of /ɛ/ is less than 375 Hz higher than than the F2 of /ɑ/, i.e. /ɛ/ has been backed. This is more restricted in the east and west, extending eastward only to Syracuse, Binghamton, and Scranton, and westward only to Green Bay, Madison, and Cedar Rapids. Like UD it goes down from Chicago to St. Louis, but includes Peoria as well as Springfield.
  • The EQ isogloss: The F1 of /ɛ/ is more than the F1 of (non-pre-nasal) /æ/ and the F2 of /ɛ/ is less than the F2 of /æ/, i.e. /ɛ/ is both lower and backer than /æ/. This is found in western NY (Syracuse, Binghamton, Rochester, Buffalo), Cleveland (but not Toledo), lower peninsula MI, northern IL (but not Gary), southern and eastern WI (Monroe, Madison, Milwaukee, Green Bay), and then also Brainerd, the Twin Cities, and St. James. But not central WI (Appleton, Reedsburg, Eau Claire), so in MN it's sort of an island. Also not in the "St. Louis corridor".
The Inland North as labeled at [2] is basically where all three parameters are found together, while cities outside the Inland North like Brainerd/Twin Cities/St. James, St. Louis, and Scranton have only two of the three parameters. Angr/talk 07:14, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Looks good, although "further back" sounds more "English" than "backer" does. ("Backer" means "supporter".) Tomertalk 15:35, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Much better. Thanks. Sorry to be such a nag. Tomertalk 08:39, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Not Affected

It is interesting that, while I live in New Berlin, Wisconsin, which appears to be in the "core" of the northern cities vowel shift, I do not, and my entire school, and most likely my entire town, does not exercise any of the vowel shifts as described, minus the /æ/ to /eə/ in some individuals. Does anybody else live in the areas shown in the map while preserving the original vowel sounds? Just wondering. BirdValiant 23:45, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

New Berlin wasn't one of the cities investigated in the research this article is based on. It's possible New Berlin is an "island" in the area and that its accent is significantly different from the accent of Milwaukee, Madison, Monroe, and Kenosha (all of which were included in the research, and all of which do show these vowel shifts). But it's also possible that most people who grew up in your town (i.e. not people who moved there) dohttp://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Northern_cities_vowel_shift&action=edit&section=7# have these vowel changes, but because you're so accustomed to everyone speaking that way, you don't notice. Angr (t • c) 06:34, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps I don't understand exactly what is supposed to happen in this... in the Speech Accent Archive, there is a woman from Milwaukee [3]speaking much like how I do, but maybe less nasaly. In the word Stella, instead of /stɛlʌ/ as is shown (I would actually have the final ʌ be more of a schwa), shouldn't it be /stəlɔ/? And brother would be pronounced /bɹɔðɚ/? BirdValiant 22:34, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
One must remember that the classical example for the NCVS path given may not be necessarily be followed. For example, here in the Milwaukee area the shifting of [ʌ] to [ɔ] does not occur, but rather it bypasses [ɔ] and is shifted towards [ɑ] instead. I myself have never heard shifting such to [ɔ] here, much the less word-finally, but I heard shifting such to [ɑ] word-finally here at times. Similarly, even if it is shifted fully, [ɛ] does not shift to [ə] here but instead seems to shift towards [ɜ] here. Consequently, one would instead get [ˈstɜːɰɑː] here, assuming a full shift, which is only unlikely as actual word-final [ɑ] for [ʌ] seems to only show up sporadically here), and taking other aspects of the phonology here into account. Travis 22:39, 5 August 2006 (UTC).
NCVS doesn't necessarily mean the vowels are shifted all the way to the new positions, just that they're moving in that direction. So Stella might not be [stʌlə] yet, but the vowel is definitely back enough that it's about as far back as the vowel of collar. Angr (t • c) 23:15, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Maybe it's the fact that I'm still in school and around the educated sort that pronounce things in the General American way that I speak the way that I do... and having parents in marketing probably helps as well... Anyway, I refuse to say brought like brat(wurst) and cat like with more than one vowel. Or milk like melk (regional?) or pen like pin or Lennon like Lenin (not like there's much difference there). However I do not I do notice that my immediate family talks differently from my family down in the Peoria area and (to a lesser degree) to the north of me, as well as my grandparents. BirdValiant 19:14, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
First of all, unless a feature is stigmatised, no one adjusts their speech to sound more "General American". For example, educated speakers from Canada or anywhere west of eastern North Dakota, do not suddenly eliminate their vowel shift (e.g. the Canadian vowel shift, which affects speakers in Canada, and the northern portion of the West; and the California vowel shift, which affects Californians, and speakers from adjacent states.), nor do they start eliminate the cot-caught merger and start making a difference in the vowels in words like "cot" and "caught"; "odd" or "ought" or "on" and "gone". The Northern Cities Vowel shift is also definitely not a stigmatised feature. In the area of a chain vowel shift, most people who live in the area do not seem to notice that they have any sort of accent, and tend not to be able to hear the fact that they have an accent. Chain vowel shifts do not mean that you just completely swap one vowel for another vowel immediately, but rather one vowel gradually moves closer to another. So, it doesn't necessarly mean that you pronounce "cat" to what would sound to you like two vowels. From the perspective of people who are not from the Northern US, practically every single speaker from the North seems to have an accent (and a strong one at that), and cat will sound like "kay-uht". I've met many people from the Northern US, and I've never heard a single speaker who did not have some of the NCVS. Also, every single one of them insisted that they had no accent, and were astounded that I could tell which region they were from, because they believed that they spoke "General American" with no sort of accent of any sort. The most noticeble features of the Northern accent from the perspective of people from West of eastern North Dakota; Canada, and North Central speakers:
-cat sounds like "cay-uht" (*even* if is pronounced with for example /eæ/.)
-For people who have not shifted "caught" to "cot": caught sounds very odd, almost like "coh-at" (although, in reality it is definitely not 2 vowels, that's just what it sounds like to cot-caught mergered people)
-When the person does not shift this vowel: cot sounds very odd (described by many people as nasal, although it has nothing to do with nasalization): it sounds like "caaht". Same thing with "dollar": sounds like "daaahler". When the speaker does shift, it sounds like "cat", instead of "cot". Example: a taxi driver from the North: "Here's your cappy of the receipt." or in a hotel: "You can bring a cat [cot] in the room".
-Even if they don't have a trace of the Northern Cities vowel shift (although unlikely), they still have æ-tensing before "n". So, ban sounds like "bay-un"; man like "may-un". Many speakers in this region also tense before /g/, so "bag" sounds like "beg" to Southerwesterners. (Southwesterners pronounce "bag" as [bæg] or with the California vowel shift as (General American) "bog".)
$ Or milk like melk $
This one seems pretty common all around. It doesn't seem to be peculiar to any region: milk is either "milk" or "melk". Check out Pacific Northwest English and Canadian English. I've also heard Californians do this.
$ pen like pin $
That's a Southern feature, although it also appears in a few speakers in the Southwest as well. So it's not too surprising that you don't merge these two.
$ It is interesting that, while I live in New Berlin, Wisconsin, which appears to be in the "core" of the northern cities vowel shift, I do not, and my entire school, and most likely my entire town, does not exercise any of the vowel shifts as described $
There's a reason its called the Northern *cities* vowel shift, it affects the major cities in the area the strongest.

Greetingz 15:14, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the info. BirdValiant 04:13, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chicago accent?

On the lines of pharos' request - is this page talking about what's commonly referred to as a "chicago accent"?? If so, i think that should be noted...Because there's certainly a such thing as a chicago accent and it's recognized throughout the country. this would be interesting to note, and add a reference point for those unversed in IPA jargon. Ashwinr 17:22, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

It's not exactly the same as a Chicago accent. As you can see from the map, it affects a much greater area than just Chicago. Also, the Chicago accent involves some things that are not part of the NCVS. But it is true that the NCVS is an important aspect of the Chicago accent. User:Angr 17:58, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
I would suggest someone make a sub-section describing the Chicago accent, or perhaps its own article - I'm surprised it doesn't exist, as it's a prominent American accent.

[edit] Help!!!

I have to say I'm with the person at the top of the page who found themselves completely baffled by this article. Of course it's difficult to describe accents in a print medium--but I think we need to try harder than this. For me and for most readers, the IPA symbols might as well be Chinese characters--when you go to the IPA decoding page, the table gives you examples of words where those words are found, so how is the use of IPA more helpful (to non-specialists) than using common words to illustrate the vowel shift?

I realize that this is kind of like trying to describe color to a blind man--but this article strikes me as being like telling the blind man, "Forget it--if you don't know what colors look like already, you're never going to know." Surely Wikipedia can do better than that.

The most helpful part of this article is actually the editor on the talk page who tried to explain to the person who didn't think they had the vowel shift that they actually did. Nareek 04:55, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I'll second that, this article is completely meaningless to many people, myself included. Here's a suggestion. Most people here will be familiar with a southern English accent, (not Cockney mind you, just regular what they used to call 'BBC English'). How about giving some pronunciation smaples using BBC English as a baseline? --Eamonnca1 07:05, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm glad I was able to help. :/ BirdValiant 03:30, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

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