Talk:Northern Ireland national football team

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[edit] First game as "Northern Ireland"

Recently, an anonymous user has been removing that information from the infobox on this page. While it is possible that "they continued to pick from all of Ireland until the 1950s and called themselves simply 'Ireland' for even longer after that", as the user suggests, as far as FIFA is concerned, Nothern Ireland exists as "Northern Ireland" since 1921. That's when Northern Ireland was formed. And the first paragraph of this article explains the history.

The point of Wikipedia is to provide information. If someone is to ask, "when is the first game played by Northern Ireland?", there is no right answer to that. Do they mean, "by Northern Ireland as Northern Ireland" or "by the team representing the Irish Football Association"? That's why both dates are given; both are important matches in the team's history. For similiar situations, see Israel national football team and China national football team. --Dryazan 17:46, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Well, that's the point. When they played in 1921 they weren't known as Northern Ireland. Yes, there was now a political entity called Northern Ireland following the rest of Ireland leaving the UK, but as far as everyone was concerned, the team still represented all of Ireland and as such was still known as 'Ireland' (as the rugby union team still is today). It wasn't until 1926 that what is now known as the Republic of Ireland team first played, but they too first called themselves 'Ireland' (they were run by the Football Association of Ireland who were set up as a direct rival to the Irish Football Association). Net result: both teams claimed to represent all of Ireland. It was not until 1946 that the boundaries were sorted out and the older team was designated as representing Northern Ireland and the younger the Republic of Ireland. It then took until 1950 for the rules to be changed, making it that only Northern Irish players could play for Northern Ireland and that only Irish Republic players could play for the Republic of Ireland.

So basically, the issue is not as clear-cut as you make out. I agree entirely that when writing about these things historically we should assume that Ireland became Northern Ireland in 1921 and the Republic of Ireland team started in 1926. However, it is misleading to put the 1921 game as a historic event because it wasn't. As far as everyone was concerned, it was just another game for Ireland. - 81.174.247.96 16:42, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

Maybe we should add the 1946 and/or 1950 games then, with proper explanation in the body of the article. --Dryazan 01:39, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Recently shown on BBC's Best Night, they said Northern Ireland was known by FIFA as Ireland in 1967, the match coverage and programmes from the game advertise it as Ireland v Scotland.

Acording to "the 125 year history of the IFA", published by the IFA, the team started out as Ireland, then became Ireland(IFA), and Ireland (FAI) after partition, and FIFA ordered the 2 teams to change their names in June 1954. Although I do recall seeing match programmes produced much more recently with both NI & ROI being referred to as IrelandFasach Nua 19:42, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

The FAI's official online history dates the intervention by FIFA to 1953, but has more or less the same facts. No mention of 'Ireland (IFA)' and 'Ireland (FAI)' as disambiguation terms though. [1] --Kwekubo 20:31, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Green uniforms

I'm surprised the team wears green uniforms. Is this controversial? I thought green was strongly identified as a Catholic/Nationalist color. Funnyhat 08:44, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

That's true, but green is also the traditional colour of Ireland. Since the Northern Irish football team originally represented all of Ireland (as all of Ireland was part of the UK back then), green was the natural choice of colour. - 81.174.247.96 16:42, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

Ah, that makes sense. To switch away from green when it had been established would have definitely been contentious. Funnyhat 03:20, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Rather bizzarly, the colour changed from blue to green after partition in 1931!

Of the political entity yes, but not the football team. What were the FAI colours at the time? Timrollpickering 00:33, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

The colours are wrong for the uniform. The NI kit has recently changed, the page should reflect that change. TheWickerMan 15:18, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Selection criteria

This edit seems baseless. From this offical history at the FAI website:

1950 was also the year that the problem of players playing for both the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland was finally solved, with FIFA directing both Associations to only pick players from within their own boundaries. FIFA were also to clear up another matter in 1953, when they ruled that the FAI's team would be known as the Republic of Ireland with the IFA's side being called Northern Ireland. Up to that point, both Associations referred to their teams as 'Ireland.'

--Kwekubo 04:57, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

The FAI doesn't even limit itself to Ireland when choosing players, let alone just the Republic. I distinctly recall a player being booed as a "Fenian traitor" (i.e. he came from the northeast but had "betrayed" the six counties by playing for the Republic) by a section of fans during an inter-Ireland game only a few years ago, although I can't remember his name right now.

Lapsed Pacifist 05:24, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

The FAI cannot select parents who are not from the Republic of Ireland - FIFA rules will not allow it. They can, however, exploit the rules that allow for people to qualify for the a country if their grandparents (for example) were born there. - Green Tentacle 22:31, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

The IFA is allowed to select players from the whole of Ireland for the home internationals, (something which it has never done since 1950), I suspect that is because they were not technically competitiuve matchs, anyone know for sure? Fasach Nua 19:59, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

How do FIFA rules handle issues like partition and boundary changes? If one's grandparents lived pre partition would the counties they were born in determine which team one could play in or would they be eligible for either? Timrollpickering 00:33, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I think you are partially right, if your grandparents were born pre-partition, then you are eligiable for both of the new(sic) associtaions. If memory serves the IFA uses parents and FAI uses grandparents for their qualification criterian, hence the FAI tends to have more players across the island than the IFA. I dont think it's quite as simple as that there are passport rules, and other funny anomolies too. Fasach Nua 21:33, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Hmm - could the IFA change its rules to include grandparents and embark on a "Find All Irishmen" type search to boost the Northern Ireland side's fortunes? Timrollpickering 21:37, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

There was talk of doing this in the 1990s during the republic's teams hay day. I think the IFA wanted to keep the team a local team with local players, rather than have the influx of players with questionable Irish connections as the Republic had. As partition disappears further into the past, there are progressively fewer and fewer people under the age of 35 whoes grandparents were born prepartion, and so maybe the argument is gradually becoming less relevant. 20:02, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

The current FIFA rules on this are quite clear. A person can only play for a country of which they are a citizen (citizenship laws do, of course, vary between countries and certain players exploit this). People with dual citizenship can play for either country. There are a lot of people with dual British and Irish citizenship, hence the Find Any Irishmen campaigns of the past. Once a player has played for one country at senior level, they cannot play for another (even if they renounce their citizenship and become a citizen of somewhere else).

As a side-note, the rule is complicated with regards to the UK (but not the Republic of Ireland) as the UK has four teams, but only one nationality (British). The rule here (bashed out by the Home Nations' football associations) is that a player can play for whichever Home Nation they were born in, their parents were born in or their grandparents were born in. If someone qualifies for nore than one Home Nation (say they were born in England, but their mother was born in Wales), then they can pick. Players born in Crown Dependencies (such as the Channel Islands) can also pick which Home Nation to play for. - Green Tentacle 00:49, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What is the correct name of the UK's Olympic team?

Is the UK's Olympic team "Great Britain" or "Great Britain and Northern Ireland"?

see Cfd discussion: Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion#Category:Great_Britain_at_the_Olympics_to_Category:Great_Britain_and_Northern_Ireland_at_the_Olympics --Mais oui! 22:12, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Move

I propose to move this page to Northern Ireland soccer team. There is more than one type of football played in the region, and the use of the word "national" is contentious.

Lapsed Pacifist 14:49, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

All of the teams under Category:European national football teams are in the style "country national football team" so this maybe worth baring in mind. Djegan 19:29, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore the term "nation" (as the root of "national") is not by any means the same as "state". Many teams in the category are not states, but nonetheless have a national football team. Djegan 19:36, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Agree with Djegan, also considering that the org that supports the team is also know as Irish Fotball Assn. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 02:39, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

"Football" bothers me more than "national". Even the Northern Ireland Office acknowledges that the GAA is the biggest sporting organisation in the region. To write "football" as if there was only one kind being played is insulting.

Lapsed Pacifist 16:47, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I do not keep up on what the GAA do, but my understanding is that they do not field any national teams in any of their games and matches? Theirfore "national football team" could not be applied to them in any valid way as we are not comparing like-to-like — if it was county or provincial then that would be a different matter. Djegan 16:56, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes they do. Ireland play Australia every year in the compromise rules code.

Lapsed Pacifist 21:02, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

But this article is about Northern Ireland not Ireland or Australia. Djegan 21:11, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Soccer is an unambiguous word. Football is not. I can't understand why this is contentious.

Lapsed Pacifist 21:25, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Because it is a straw man arguement. Djegan 21:28, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

You've lost me.

Lapsed Pacifist 21:30, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

You still have to make any substantial points that would prove their is a case for ambiguity, if you dont know the difference between Ireland and Northern Ireland then you have not lost me - your simply warring. Djegan 21:34, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Of course I know the difference between the north of a country and the whole of it. You thought the GAA did not operate at international level, and I increased the sum of your knowledge. Go to the football article, and see why the term is ambiguous. You and I know the six counties don't have a team for any other kind of football. But other users may not. What I don't understand is why you don't like the word soccer.

Lapsed Pacifist 21:52, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

So, as you have shown, their is still no substantial requirement for moving the article, it is clearly understood what is meant when the terms “Northern Ireland national” and “football team” are used togetheir; it can only mean one thing, theirfore it follows that it is not ambiguous. As for introducing soccer that just introduces an additional and unneccessary word; that it the test. Djegan 22:05, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

See United States men's national soccer team for an example. The USA does not field an international American Football team as far as I know. In the USA there is a form of football that is way more dominant than soccer. Many people in the USA refer to football (FA rules) as 'soccer.' All of these characteristics apply to Northern Ireland. If you're going to insist on the NI team's page having 'football' in the title then you'll have to do the same for Uncle Sam. --Eamonnca1 16:57, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

You're about as clear as granite, DJ.

Lapsed Pacifist 22:14, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Current campaign

Why a current campaign section? Is Wikipedia a fixture list now? Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 08:04, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Trinidad

Is NI the smallest country to qualify for the world cup? The population of T&T is given as 1,305,000 in the wikipedia, anyone know the NI population in 1958? Fasach Nua 23:50, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

They were the smallest country to quality until T&T, as stated in the article. Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 07:59, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Away jerseys

The shop at the IFA website has for sale both an "Away Short Sleeved Jersey" (white with green trim) and an "NI Away Short Sleeved Jersey" (blue with white trim). I cannot say that I have ever seen NI playing in a blue jersey; which of the two is the current away top? Or is the situation similar to, for example, Ghana, who used yellow home and white away jerseys until this year's world cup when FIFA decided the colours were too similar? --Kwekubo 16:35, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Strangely I was in JJB in Ballymena yesterday and noticed the blue Northern Ireland tops. I believe, as Fasach Nua said on the edit summary, it is supposed to be Saint Patrick's blue. No idea if the change had anything to do with FIFA.   theKeith  Talk!  17:30, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

In the qualification for the 1994 world cup, NI had a Blue away strip, which they wore once(?) when playing away to some other team in dublin. It was criticised for looking like a butcher's apron and the IFA vowed never to use anything other than white for an away strip again Fasach Nua 02:24, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

The old (2006 campaign) away kit was white with green trim, the new (2008 Euro) away kit is blue. No idea why the colours changed, but there's always been some blue on the NI kit, as distinct from the ROI kit

Idunnomeself

The original home strip used o be blue, maybe that has something to do with it? --Fasach Nua 20:57, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Northern Ireland "national" football (sic) team

Impossible. Ask, for example, the following unionist organisations: The Church of Ireland; The Presbyterian Church in Ireland; The Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland.... This latest attempt to give historic legitimacy to the last remnant of the British Empire in Ireland is just as futile as the rest of them. One siege- indeed centuries of sieges- does not make a nation. El Gringo 18:34, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

This is the standard naming format on Wikipedia for all teams fielded by member associations of FIFA. -- Arwel (talk) 23:11, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

The government seems to think otherwise, Gringo. Consider the following non-unionist organisations and/or establishments: the Police Service of Northern Ireland, Northern Ireland Assembly, Northern Ireland Tourist Board... Northern Ireland is a constituent country; see the article of the same name. -- the GREAT Gavini 15:43, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ireland national football team (1882-1920)

There has been an article with the above title created, which is very relevant to this article, on the off chance someone missed it's creation 08:54, 20 September 2006 (UTC)