Talk:Noahide Laws

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Someone insisted on categorising this with Category:Jewish Christian topics. I dispute this. The Noahide Laws have no role in Christianity, and post-hoc apologetics will not change this. Christianity has never attempted to satisfy the Noahide Laws, and there is a strong indication from some Jewish sources that Christianity can't actually conform to the Noahide Laws. JFW | T@lk 23:01, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Category "Jewish Christian topics": "comprises articles pertaining to the religious interface, differences, and relations between Judaism and Jews -- and Israel as the Jewish state -- with Christianity and Christians." Of the sections in Noahide Law, I notice: "Other religions as Noahide", "Christian criticism", "Christian adoption of the Noahide Laws?". In addition, the word "Christian" appears 30 times. I can understand an objection to placing this article in the "Christian" category, but the reasons for objecting to its placement in "Jewish Christian topics" escape me. Quite clearly, in addition to being a Jewish topic, it is also a Jewish Christian topic. As for your claim that "Noahide Laws have no role in Christianity", I quote this from the article: "Several Christian congregations have abandoned traditional Christianity (rejecting the Nicene Creed) and adopted Noahidism in recent years. In the United States a few organized movements of non-Jews (primarily of Christian origin) have been influenced by Orthodox Judaism; rather than converting to Judaism, they have chosen to abandon previous religious affiliation and live by the Noahide Laws. The rainbow is the symbol of many organised Noahide groups, and the best-known group is probably the one led by Vendyl Jones. So far, however, being a Noahide has never been considered to be part of an organized religion."

According to organised Christianity rejection of the Nicene Creed is a departure from Christianity. But whatever, this is not a "Jewish Christian topic". At the so-called interface between Christiany and Judaism the Noahide Laws have never featured. JFW | T@lk 22:59, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

I can immediately think of five prominant exceptions to your claim that: "At the so-called interface between Christiany and Judaism the Noahide Laws have never featured." 1. Council of Jerusalem 2. Apostolic Constitutions 3. Isaac Newton 4. Jewish Encyclopedia 5. Vendyl Jones. All five are cited in the Noahide Laws article. Four are Christian, the Jewish Encyclopedia cite is about Paul of Tarsus, another Christian. I'm sure there are other exceptions. Isn't one exception sufficient? Can you cite a significant reference for your claim? If so, shouldn't it be included in the article? If not, perhaps you should concede that your pov might not match the facts of evidence? Can you express what you feel are the errors or dangers in placing this article in the "Jewish Christian topics" category?
Noahide laws do not really feature in modern Christianity. However, there is a fairly popular scholarly suggestion that the so-called 'Council of Jerusalem' of Acts 15 based its decree on the Noahide laws. Whether that is a correct intepretation of Acts 15 and whether, if it is, the author of Acts is correct in his presetation and interpretation of the actual events is, of course, open to question. But this, and other suggested allusions to them in the New Testament (Revelation in particular) does mean that they are of interest to reconstruction of early Christian ethics, and Jew/Gentile relations within the early Church, and it is at least plausible that they were being applied (in some form, and in some places) at some point in early Christian circles. I'm not arguing that any of this is correct, but it is a live academic debate, and means that the Noahides are at least of interest to Christian scholars, and perhaps also to the ealy Christians themselves.--Doc ask? 20:30, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Agree with JFW, his arguments make perfect sense. IZAK 04:14, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
  • JFW is correct only if one views all Christian sects that do not agree with "Christian Orthodoxy" to be excluded as Christian. Some of these sects view mainstream "Christian Orthodoxy" to be incorrect teaching in a number of areas including the abrogation of the Law, or the Torah. Is Orthodox Judaism the only reference source for articles on Judaism?--Kevin 20:14, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Disagree. Of course Orthodoxy cannot claim a monopoly on Judaism-related articles. But the whole category "Jewish Christian topics" is misleading. It is supposed to be a historical category that deals with the years during which Christianity split off from Judaism. It is not supposed to contain articles which may have an ideological link to both religions (the list would also be endless). There is NO proof that the early Christians were thinking about the Noahide Laws when they were converting gentiles to their new ideology. JFW | T@lk 21:37, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Partial Agreement -At least we have come to an agreement on the description of a Christian to include almost any group claiming to follow the teachings of Christ. I would agree with your statement above (conditionally) that Christianity in general, does not conform, nor even attempts to teach obedience to Noahidic Law (the condition is to remove comprehensive adverbs such as never). We only need to come to agreement on the comprehensive understanding of Noahide Laws (and perhaps the purpose of the Jewish Christian article). Your description of what the article is supposed to be about in terms of history is not in agreement with the description of the subject, or the inclusions. Agreed, the list of articles under the present description could be almost endless (far longer than necessary, even at this point). Yet, your description would narrow the list to exclude many pertinent facts linking the histories of Primitive Christianity and Judaism. There are some who still attempt to observe this primitive apostolic Christianity, which in many ways links more to Judaism than Orthodox Christianity. Agreed, there is not absolute proof that the Noahidic Laws were considered in early Christianity, yet there is ample evidence to support the theory.
I have experienced that some are offended by the terms Jewish or Judaic being combined with Christian. Could this be considered an underlying reason for your disagreement, JFW?--Kevin 23:06, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Are we having a disagreement? Anycase, I don't need to disclose what informs my decision to hold the views I hold. JFW | T@lk 00:07, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
That is fine. I might have suggested a minor change in the title of the Jewish-Christian topic list to be more PC, if there was an issue. Noahidic Laws will be a relevant addition to the list; my suggestion is that the description of the list be more precise, and those subjects that are superficially related be removed.--Kevin 00:26, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Agree with JFW, though this may be resolved now, which is good. KHM03 01:10, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
  • The real issue is that Christians believe in a Trinity and Jews consider this to be idolatry; this has only a tangential connection with the Noahide laws, so I don't think this article rates a Jewish/Christian category. There are enough irrelevant articles in that category already. Ben Standeven 21:54, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Ben, have you seen the info on shittuf in the article? Not all authorities see Christianity as idolatry. But you are right on the basic premise. JFW | T@lk 22:23, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

In addition, Ben, you are correct in the understanding that most calling themselves Christian do view the acknowledgement of the trinitarian nature of the One Most High, as required for orthodox Christianity; this is not an undeniably written doctrine in the scriptures understood as either the original Hebrew, or even the Christian New Testament. There are a few Christian sects that view this teaching as human speculation, and possibly Pagan in origination. The article includes discussion the idolatrous nature of trinitarian belief. We are in basic agreement on the subject, I believe; our differences might be on the description of Christianity as only those groups that accept trinitarianism as orthodox, or acceptable.--Kevin 03:22, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Christianity in this article

The material on Christianity vs the Noahide Laws was sprinkled through the article. I have now moved everything to the relevant section, and I suggest all Christianity-related content remains there. It's odd that while this is a Jewish subject, about half the article is still about whether it is to be accepted by Christians, discriminatory of Christians, a part of Christian history, etc etc. Perhaps some condensation and rationalisation, with the necessary source support (which is now lacking) will make the article more lean & mean. JFW | T@lk 15:55, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for consolidating the Christian perspective. I agree that it needs some work. I disagree that this is only a Jewish subject. This is a subject about Jewish acceptance of Gentiles. It has been a source of friction between the two groups for thousands of years. This subject is not under the heading of Judaism. Let's do a disambiguation to distinguish and include the Christian perspective (of which there are many sides).--Kevin 16:12, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

There has not been friction between the groups for 2000 years because of the Noahide Laws. The friction is because most Jews would not convert to Christianity, and were subsequently accused of deicide. I'm quite unhappy with your new fork Noachian Law, which I've put of AFD for obvious reasons. This is one article on the concept of the expectations of Jewish law from Gentiles. Nothing more and nothing less. Please just work on the "christianity" section on this page; removing all irrelevant content and sourcing the remainder will do more good than creating a new article to flesh out every single point. JFW | T@lk 22:23, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Sounds like there should be two articles: "Noahide Laws in Judaism" and "Noahide Laws in Christianity" with a disambiguation page for Noahide Laws, much like the current divisions for Sabbath, Passover, OT/Tanakh, Messiah, etc. 63.201.27.54 (talk • contribs).
Firstly, 63.201.27.54, I think it's mighty rude of you to flag up a request for comments[1] without letting us know on this page.
No personal attacks please. Address the issues. 63.201.27.224 (talk • contribs)
Do not confuse criticism with personal attacks. I've been addressing the issues, thank you very much. JFW | T@lk 10:32, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
I think splitting the article is the worst thing one can do. There are no "Christian" Noahide Laws. I think all the relevant information can easily be contained in this article. In fact, I think the Christian relevance is much overstated. I'd say >95% of all Christians would not have the slightest idea what the Noahide Laws are, as they are a distinctly Jewish phenomenon. There will be no split and no disambiguation page. At any rate, disambig pages are only for articles with similar levels of importance, see Wikipedia:Disambiguation. JFW | T@lk 00:15, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
All the more reason to separate the two articles: Noahide Law in Judaism and Noahide Law in Christianity. You can be self appointed czar of the Judaism article, let other people handle the Christian article. You don't even need to bother yourself with the Christian article, that way you can continue to convince yourself that it doesn't exist.
I am not a self-appointed Czar of anything, but you cannot demand a split where the content does not need it. All the Christian views on the Noahide Laws hinge on its existance as a primarily Jewish phenomenon. That makes a fork unsustainable. JFW | T@lk 10:32, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
  • We are in agreement that there has not been friction between Jews and Gentiles due to the Noachian Law. Noachian Law can be used to bridge the void between the two. From the Christian perspective this primarily deals with the early Jewish converts' (to Christianity) unacceptance of fellowship with uncircumcised Gentiles. There is much to be stated concerning the friction caused by both early Jewish Christian rejection of the Gentile converts, and Roman Catholic antisemitism and murderous persecution, all in the name of the Creator. The last is far more offensive than the first, yet each viewed his unbelieving neighbor as either untouchable, or worthy of death. Both are arrogant, and one murderous, and without reason in view of Noachian, or Mosaic Law. There is no justification for either view of self-righteousness regardless of birthright, or belief. That is what the article is about, whether it be from the Jewish perspective, or the Christian perspective. Noachian Law is the bridge which only the humble and contrite will attempt to cross.
  • There is a place for Primitive Christian belief alongside Noachian Law. We are the minority, and perhaps the remnant, that observe these universal ideals without judgment on those who do not. You are becoming more correct in your estimation that >95% of Christians would not know what the Noachian Laws are about, and would not this be a great opportunity to teach those who seek answers to why? The relevance is of supreme importance to a minority who seek reconciliation of the two divisions. This is a very important and controversial subject that concerns Christian understanding, far more than Jewish concerns. There is much to be gleaned by the understanding of the these precepts, from both approaches to the issues of acceptance, and conformity to one anothers' understandings of the requirements for obedience.
  • There are some sources that I will add to the article, but you must understand that Primitive Apostolic Christianity has always been persecuted along with Judaism, and squelched throughout history and yet there is evidence of this belief in continuance through to this day.--Kevin 04:15, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

I will have no further discussion if you feel the need to rant about "Jewish pomposity", "arrogance", "self-righteousness" etc. You'd better change your tone, and fast. Obviously you have unconventional views. If you expect to be taken seriously you'd better start providing some useful outside evidence on the role of Noahide Laws in Primitive Apostolic Christianity. JFW | T@lk 04:44, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

  • My apologies! It was not my intention to rant. There was just some confusion about how some view Noachian Law, and you misunderstood my comments as to where friction between Jews and Christians is derived. I just wanted to make myself clear as to how Noachian Law may be seen from both perspectives as a healing approach. I have made my above statement more precise, and left out the P word. I think you misunderstood my intention, saw red, and ignored the rest of my comments. I was not saying everyone is included, only those who refused to accept one another.--Kevin 18:35, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV dispute

This article needs to be split into "Noahide Laws in Judaism" and "Noahide Laws in Christianity" because of dictatorial statements like this: "I think splitting the article is the worst thing one can do. There are no "Christian" Noahide Laws. I think all the relevant information can easily be contained in this article. In fact, I think the Christian relevance is much overstated. I'd say >95% of all Christians would not have the slightest idea what the Noahide Laws are, as they are a distinctly Jewish phenomenon. There will be no split and no disambiguation page." The Jewish material should go to "Noahide Laws in Judaism" and the Christian material, which a certain dictator claims does not exist, should go to "Noahide Laws in Christianity". There is plenty of precedent for this for obvious reasons: Old Testament versus Jewish Bible, Sabbath versus Shabbat, Passover (Christian holiday) versus Passover, Christ versus Messiah, Hell versus Gehenna, etc. Obviously, both Judaism and Christianity are based on the same source material, but draw different conclusions, for this reason articles should be split, neither side will ever agree that the other might be correct or sometimes that another side even exists. But of course it does, and neutrality dictates seperate articles. 63.201.24.99 (talk • contribs)

All the "Christian" conclusions hinge on the Noahide laws as a Jewish phenomenon. A subpage would be warranted if the material became too bulky (e.g. >32 KB), but at the moment we're nowhere near. Please stop calling people "dictators". That's a personal attack. JFW | T@lk 10:32, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
Please stop acting as a dictator. I assume you are Jewish and I understand your desire to defend this article from a Jewish perspective, which is fine, but underlines why there should be a "Noahide Laws in Judaism" which is from the Jewish perspective and a separate "Noahide Laws in Christianity" which is from the Christian perspective, thus avoiding these problems which will occur over and over. Obviously, Christianity is based on a "Jewish phenomenon", thus the need for separate articles. Obviously Judaism and Christianity draw different conclusions from the same source material. There is no point in arguing which one is the correct conclusion, just separate the articles, express both pov's. 63.201.25.11 (talk • contribs)
I have explained this to you ad nauseam. My religion has nothing to do with this. The conclusions are the same. You should stop calling me names. Those are personal attacks. JFW | T@lk 15:35, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
As I am apparently the czar of this article, I have done a general copyedit. This has enabled me to look carefully at the material presented. I think all views are here in a coherent and logical fashion, and the important points about basic Jewish requirements for non-Jews (Acts 15) have all been brought out. I really wonder what the benefit would be of an extra article dealing with that phenomenon specifically.
I doubt, by the way, that Acts 15 refers to any form of Noahide laws, but this is just my personal view. The whole concept of "Noahide" is not mentioned, nor the number seven. In fact, the earliest Jewish source for the Noahide laws is Tosefta Avodah Zara 9:4, which was committed no earlier than 200 CE. JFW | T@lk 11:19, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
The number 7 is not the Christian view, Christians come at this same topic by looking at the laws present before Moses, in other words laws at the time of Noah, hence Noahide Laws. The earliest source for Christian Noahide Laws is Acts 15, circa 100ce. And you are correct that the Jewish concept of Noahide Laws is not mentioned in Acts 15, what is mentioned is the Christian concept. Understand the need for seperate articles now? You are attempting to interpret the Christian Noahide Laws from the Jewish perspective, nothing wrong with that, but the npov way to handle that is in seperate articles. Christians derive the Christian Noahide Laws from the Christian Bible plus Apostolic Fathers plus Ante-Nicene Fathers. Jews derive the Jewish Noahide Laws from the Jewish Bible plus the Talmud. 63.201.25.11 (talk • contribs)
So why bother inserting all that material into this article then? Who on earth calls these laws "Noahide laws"? If you want to write an article about them, "Noahide Laws" would be a very poor choice of title. JFW | T@lk 15:35, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Christians had already been taught obedience to the Ten Commandments. The Noachian Law is mainly included within the Ten. The Council of Jerusalem was clearly adding the items not specified in the Ten as the only other requirements they were going to place on the Gentiles. As you stated above, the term Noahide, or the number seven were most likely not even in use at that time.--Kevin 19:57, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

"Noachian law" appears to simply be a variant of "Noahide Law", and is used to describe the Noahide laws. What encyclopedic sources are you using for your descriptions of the Christian view of them? Because I haven't been able to find any. Jayjg (talk) 21:24, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Primary source is Apostolic Constitutions, part of the Ante-Nicene Fathers collection, cited in the article.
http://www.google.com/search?q=Apostolic+Decree
http://www.didache-garrow.info/firstchristiandocument/whatisdecree.htm
"The Didache's base layer contains precisely the kind of ambiguity required.
Didache 6.2-3 'If you are able to bear the whole yoke of the Lord [=Torah], you will be perfect (teleios), but if you cannot, do what you can. Concerning food, bear what you can, but abstain strictly from food offered to idols, for it is worship of dead gods.' This is the final instruction in the sequence leading up to the baptism of Gentile converts. Once baptised they are entitled to participate in the Eucharist (cf. Did. 9.5). Significantly, there is no explicit requirement to be circumcised. At the end of the text, however, Didache 16.2 reveals that this was only intended as a temporary concession, not a long-term solution.
Didache 16.2 'You shall assemble frequently, seeking what your souls need, for the whole time of your faith will be of no profit to you unless you are perfected (teleiothete) at the final hour.' The concept of 'perfection' refers to full Torah observance (as understood by the particular community) and would have included circumcision." 63.201.25.11 (talk • contribs)

And I will repeat my question: where is the term "Noahide". If these laws are not identical with the 7 laws from the Talmud, and nobody calls them "Noahide Laws" (including your source above), why use this article as your vehicle? JFW | T@lk 15:35, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Exactly; nothing about "Noahide" or "Noachian" there. Jayjg (talk) 23:50, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Would you prefer the long form of the Apostolic Constitutions: "Laws .. given to the ancients who lived before the law, under the law of nature, Enos, Enoch, Noah, Melchizedek, Job, and if there be any other of the same sort"? You don't believe "Noahide Laws in Christianity" is a reasonable abreviation of the above quote? What would you suggest? Pre-Mosiac law? Pentateuchal law before Moses? Old Testament law before Moses? 64.169.4.89 (talk • contribs)

Those are some peri-Noahide laws (Melchizedek lived after Noah, and Job's epoch is not certain). But the Noahide laws without a modifier refers to the seven laws from Talmud Sanhedrin. How about you move this content to Apostolic Constitutions. It seems we have found a home for it after all. JFW | T@lk 20:58, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

If you want to get technical about terminology, the correct Jewish term is "Seven Commandments". "Noahide Law" is the Christian term, just as "Mosaic Law" is the Christian term for Jewish "Torah". So, move the Jewish content to article "Seven Commandments of Judaism" and the Christian content to article "Noahide Law in Christianity" for clarity.
One more comment: After all this, does anyone seriously still believe this is *NOT* a Jewish-Christian topic? LOL
Yet another comment: JFW, taking the Jewish pov, suggests moving the Christian content of Noahide Laws into its source of the Apostolic Constitutions. Of course, one could just as easily take a dictatorial Christian pov: Why not move the Jewish content of Noahide Laws back into its source of the Talmud. Obviously, perhaps painfully, Noahide Laws is a Jewish-Christian topic, even if some people are uncomfortable with that fact. 209.78.22.8 (talk • contribs)

No, the correct Hebrew term is Sheva Mitzvot Bnay Noach, "The Seven Commandments of the Sons of Noah". There is no Christian term for it; Christians don't do the Sheva Mitzvot, at least they hadn't done so until Jewish writers brought them into the public discourse in the 20th century.

Your reply aimed at me personally shows in all its colours how poorly you have read the above discussion. There are no Christian Noahide Laws! There are some pre-Abrahamititic laws that the Primitive Apostolic Christianity people express a great deal of interest in, such as the High Sabbaths, but you are morbidly mistaken that this subject should go "back into its source of the Talmud" (whatever you mean by that). The majority of the article is about this phenomenon in Jewish law and its adherents of the newly developing Noahide movement. This is not a Jewish-Christian topic, and your irony is completely misplaced. JFW | T@lk 23:37, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Oh, and for the record, Kevin, one of the protagonists of the Jewish-Christian theory, has done the sensible thing and moved the relevant content to Primitive Apostolic Christianity. I'm pleased we're finally getting somewhere. JFW | T@lk 23:44, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Simply speaking, the "Noahide Laws" are a Jewish concept, and are only testified to in Jewish sources. Some writers have argued that they overlap the "Apostolic laws", that POV is an entirely modern view. Jayjg (talk) 23:50, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Facts are facts: The Christian Apostolic Constitutions "Laws .. given to the ancients who lived before the law, under the law of nature, Enos, Enoch, Noah, Melchizedek, Job, and if there be any other of the same sort" predates the Talmud's "Seven Commandments of the Sons of Noah". 209.78.22.8 (talk • contribs).

So what? JFW | T@lk 00:56, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, I suppose it's always possible that they do, but what does that have to do with the Noahide laws? Jayjg (talk) 00:59, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Your claim is that the Jewish Noahide Laws preceded the Christian Noahide Laws, when actually it's the other way around. No historian would be surprised at this, obviously the issue of what Bible laws applied to non-Jews arose first in Christianity. Judaism of course has always had converts, but they convert, to Judaism, which generally means circumcision for males since that's the greatest difference between Judaism and Greco-Roman paganism from the Greco-Roman perspective. But, again obviously, the question arose, should Christian converts convert to Judaism? One answer is no, they should follow the Christian Laws of Noah. An additional claim made was that only the Jewish Laws were called Noahide when in fact it is the Christian Laws that are called Noahide (i.e. "Laws of Noah") and the Jewish Laws are called the Seven Commandments of the Sons of Noah. Seven is the most significant part of the Jewish Noahide Laws, but isn't a factor in the earlier Christian Noahide Laws which instead are merely whatever (number irrelevant) laws were present in the Christian Bible before the Christian Mosaic Law, the Christian notion being that God decreed the Mosaic Law to the Jews whereas the other laws stated in the Christian Old Testament apply to all people, thus they would apply to non-Jewish Christians. Of course none of this is understandable from a pov perspective, only when you step back and take a neutral historical perspective does it begin to make sense. If you insist that Christian Noahide Laws don't exist, then from your pov, they do not exist. That's the beauty of Platonic logic. 209.78.18.73 (talk • contribs)

Dear 209.78.18.73, there are no Christian Noahide Laws. There are some laws mentioned in Acts 15, which seem to be Jewish laws meant for non-Jews, but they are not called Noahide laws, the non-Jews in question are not designated "Noahides", and so on. You can do with your Platonic logic anything you like, but not mangle terminology until it suits your point of view. The "neutral historical perspective" does not seem to be in agreement with you. JFW | T@lk 13:27, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

I've made no such claim; rather, I'm pointing out that there are no pre-20th century sources which refer to "Noahide laws". All you need to do to disprove that is to cite reputable sources which provide references to "Christian Noahide Laws". Jayjg (talk) 00:58, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

  • The noun Noahide does appear to primarily refer to Judaic teaching and identification pertaining to legal requirement. Yet, secondarily there is also some Christian discussion of the original requirements of the Gentile Christians relating to Noachian law. The term "Noachian" is an adjective which modifies a noun as to time and/or understanding. Noachian time and/or understanding precedes the birth of Judah (or Yahudah), therefore it is an adjective that is not limited by Judaic, or Christian belief and/or understanding. There should be a separate article which disambiguates between Noachian and Noahide, and allows for NPOV articles that include all POV.--Kevin 04:05, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Kevin: show me one serious source that supports your assertions. Otherwise please do not post on this page. Jayjg and myself have requested numerous times that you support your ideas with evidence. All you have just done in your comment today is rehash the same comments you've been making since the beginning of this discussion, and I think we'd be going round in circles if I were to explain to you again the relevance of the original research policy here. JFW | T@lk 04:56, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

  • There is a good article on the subject of early Christian adherence to Noachian law at www.haydid.org/spirit2.htm by Dr.Ron Moseley. He quotes several books and New Testament passages that support the view. David Flusser also has authored Judaism and the Origins of Christianity, in which he discusses observance of the Noachian commandments as incumbent on all God Fearing gentile converts to Primitive Christianity. Here is an excerpt of the article by Moseley:
These laws of Noah were basically the same as the spiritual principles listed in the New Testament for Gentile converts requiring them to love their neighbor, avoid sexual sins, pagan rites, idolatry, and to worship the one true God. This was the ruling of the early church leaders in Acts 15:28, 29 when they listed the Noachide Laws as the necessary things that were required of the Gentile converts. The earliest church was one body made up of believing Jews and believing Gentiles. They were united in the Messiah who broke down the wall of partition between them [Ephesians 2:14].. The Acts 15 decision was regarding Gentile converts who had embraced the one true God and His Messiah, and these necessary things were the only part of the 613 Jewish laws and traditions required of Gentile converts. Originally there were three Noachide Laws that were commonly summarized into a list of seven, and then often a shorter record of four categories as we see in Acts 15. In studying these we actually find some 66-67 biblical imperatives as off-shoots of these main categories that pertain to the Noachide system. These Gentiles were called by various names including; "Righteous Gentiles," "Proselytes of the Gate," and "God Fearers." Jewish law divides all non-Jews into three categories: (1) the Akkum, one who does not observe the Noachide laws; (2) the Ben Noah, one who does observe the Noachide laws; and (3) the Ger Toshab, one who, before Jewish courts, declares his intention of adhering to the Noachide laws, and is then permitted to reside in Palestine. While the Jews always kept the basic 613 Laws for obedience and identification as the "Chosen of God," the believing Gentiles had a different system of the same morals in the Noachide Laws. David Stern in his Jewish New Testament Translation says the New Testament is not actually a New Covenant, but the Law of God given through Jesus the Messiah to the Gentiles, like the original Law was given through Moses to the Jews, and that this is the actual meaning of Hebrews 8:6 concerning the term, better covenant.
  • The article concludes that the understanding and observance of Noachian precepts was the basis for Primitive Christianity.--Kevin 18:35, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Kevin, why has it taken you more than a week to come up with some basic sources? Moseley wrote the cited material in 1993, which is several decades after Lubavitch started popularising the Noahide Laws. The Flusser book he quotes is from 1988, and the Lichtenstein book is actually a Jewish source - it does not discuss this phenomenon in Christianity. So we have a small number of authors borrowing the Jewish term to refer to the Apostolic Constitutions. So what has happened is that Jewish terminology was applied to these laws after they gained popularity in the scientific and popular press. I find this a fairly poor reason to start a parallel page, as this phenomenon did not develop independently but in response to the Jewish "Seven Commandments". In what way do you disagree with my conclusions? Doesn't it make much more sense to say that "Christian writers in the 20th century found similarity between the Noahide Laws and the Apostolic Constitutions" with a reference to Moseley? I think this is the best way forward. JFW | T@lk 18:54, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Your claim that the Apostolic Constitutions are the Noahide Laws is incorrect, as far as I know, you are the only one making that claim, I can only assume for rhetorical purposes. The Apostolic Constitutions are an early Christian text, part of the Ante-Nicene Fathers, part of the Bible of the Ethiopian Orthodox. According to the Apostolic Constitutions 6.64: "Wherefore my sentence is, that we do not trouble those who from among the Gentiles turn unto God: but to charge them that they abstain from the pollutions of the Gentiles, and from what is sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication; which laws were given to the ancients who lived before the law, under the law of nature, Enos, Enoch, Noah, Melchizedek, Job, and if there be any other of the same sort." Thus, the Apostolic Constitutions are the earliest record of the use of the term "Laws of Noah" and the reference to Acts of the Apostles 15 is clear. These "Laws of Noah" were of significance to Christianity well before they were to Judaism, which as stated earlier, see above, would be obvious to anyone familar with the early history of Christianity.
But it doesn't single out Noah's laws, no? It just lists a couple of pre-Abrahamitic Biblical personages. And subsequent Christian literature does not refer to any body of laws as "Noahide Laws" until the 20th century, right? JFW | T@lk 20:54, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
  • There is no reason to be unreasonable JFW, this has not been my priority. Perhaps you are confusing my comments with some others unsigned above (for example the above with which I differ with his conclusion that the laws of Noah were insignificant to Judaism prior to Christianity). Regardless of the date of the sources, my purpose was merely to give support to my point that there are various authors who have discussed the evidence of Noachian instruction being the source of understanding for primitive Christian inclusion of Gentile converts. So you seem to be saying that Jewish writings can be documented to have occured previous to modern Christian references to Noachide Laws, or even Noachian precepts; does that mean that the terminology is owned by the originator. These were translations from the Aramaic Tasefta source. I would think the English term Noachian, referring to the era of Noah does not have to be solely possessed as Jewish terminology. Apostolic Constitutions, or Apostolic Decree as a reference is acceptable from Noahide Laws. It is just that the term Noahide is rather limited in scope, when approached from a Christian point of view. Noachian requirements of God fearing Gentiles seems more broad in approach in my POV. Many of the Christian authors use the term Noachian when referring to Primitive Christianity, and Noachide Laws when referring to Jewish parallels. That is a better approach from the Christian perspective.--Kevin 20:36, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

As all these authors are developing their terminology borrowing from the Jewish concept I am not inclined to change my mind here. If you can prove to me that any aspect of Christian law was called Noahide, Noachian or anything similar by notable Christian writers prior it the popularisation of the concept by Jewish writers will I be anywhere close to conceding. Otherwise, you are invited to change the Christian adoption paragraph according to our discussion above. JFW | T@lk 20:54, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Kevhorn (talk • contribs) created another fork to confuse the issues. Noachian Covenant now redirects here. The links can be removed. Please provide evidence that any writer uses the term "Noachian Covenant" in any context. This is getting tiresome. JFW | T@lk 03:02, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

On the basis of the limited evidence that Kevin has given us I have now removed most speculative material from the section in question. Most of it was speculative, unsourced and hence likely to be original research. I will repeat my assertion that until the 20th century few Christians cared for the Jewish concept of "Noahide Laws", and all else is historical revisionism of doubtful significance. JFW | T@lk 03:09, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] External links

The list of external links includes what looks like some vanispamcruft. I am pruning the list per my understanding of WP:EL:


Yahoo groups, tripod pages, "I think that too" pages and so on are not good, authoritative sources. The Jewish Encyclopaedia is, and the Institute of Noahide Law apperars to be as well (although anyone can call themselves an Institute, so I might be misjudging that) - Just zis  Guy, you know? [T]/[C] AfD? 11:29, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Is there more information about what rabbis say about Islam being a Noahide religion? Thank you. RedCrescent 04:45, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the link http://www.bneinoach.org/news.php twice because I do believe that it meets Wikipedia high standards for external links. I you disagree please read Wikipedia:External links first and then explain here why you believe I am wrong. Jon513 00:16, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

There are a lot of rules there, do you want me to go through each one? Since you are deleting it, you have the burden to prove that it violates those rules. Why don't you tell me what provision there has been violated. Then we can talk. In the meantime would some neutral wikipedia people please weigh in so we can reach a consensus.

It seems you are well versed in wikipedia rules already wikipedia:Ignore all rules: If the rules discourage you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia's quality, ignore them. The rules you want to look at in Wikipedia:External links are "What should be linked to" #4 and "Links to normally avoid" #2, please read them. The site has a few articles, a few downloads, and a FAQ. I don't think it has a "level of detail inapropiate for wikipedia"; in fact I think the current article, while not yet brilliant prose, contains all or most of the facts contained on the website. Jon513 19:17, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
    • Are the above the reason why a link that I posted does not appear? I posted http://sagavyah.tripod.com [The Path of Abraham / Biblical Monotheism] which is the only site I have seen so far which collects the SOURCES for the Noachide Laws from the Mishneh Torah. The Mishneh Torah is the only historical codification of Jewish law which also codifies the Noahide Laws, though of course there are some disagreements among poskim about a few specific details of the Noahide Laws. Nonetheless, ANYONE who is somewhat familiar with Orthodox Judaism and the Noahide laws should know that Maimonidies Mishneh Torah is the main AUTHORITATIVE source for these laws in Jewish history, aside from the Talmud itself. Could someone please explain to me why the site I mentioned above does not appear? If it's a matter of the Mishneh Torah not being an authoritative source on the Noahide Laws, then I don't know what is. Additionally, of all the websites I've seen on the topic of the Noahide Laws, I do not know any other site which goes into detail about the Noahide Laws while all the time making clear distinction between the Noahide Laws themselves, as codified from the Talmud, and the various interpretations and applications of these laws which various individuals have made over time. Thanks. - Mikhael

[edit] Question

"the ... principles ... upon which our great Nation was founded ... known as the Seven Noahide Laws ... without these ... civilization stands in serious peril of ... chaos ... Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, leader of the Lubavitch movement, is universally respected and revered and his eighty-ninth birthday falls on March 26, 1991 ... in tribute to this great spiritual leader ... his ninetieth year will ... turn to education and charity to return the world to the moral and ethical values contained in the Seven Noahide Laws" Sure do seem to be a bunch of "..."s in this quote. "the...principles...upon which our great Nation was founded...known as the Seven Noahide Laws..." Is this accurate and contextual? --Yodamace1 20:15, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

After you read the entire quote it hardly makes more sense... It's lip service to an influential constituency, something like the Jewish equivalent of the Christian right. Actually, many people, including many observant Jews, would find the statement as goofy, out of kilter, false, or any combination thereof. elpincha 13:53, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Another Question

In modern Hebrew, the term 'gilui arayot' refers to incest alone. In Biblical Hebrew, besides incest, it also referred to a woman having sex with a man who is not her husband, regardless of relation. However, none of these definitions imply a generic rule of sexual morality. Where did the broadening of the definition to include other supposed-sexually immoral acts come from? If this isn't a mistake, it needs to be sourced. --Telecart 21:40, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Gilui Arayot both in the modern and biblical useage refers to all types of sexual imorality. The source is the Mishneh Torah. Accoriding to many opinions the rules in the bible are stricter than those for a non-jew. Jon513 21:56, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
For the statements of "Not to crossbreed animals" and "No castration" the sourse is stated as Shmuel ben Hophni Gaon. Jon513 22:00, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rabbi Aaron Lichtenstein

The Rabbi Aaron Lichtenstein who wrote a book about Noahide Laws is NOT the same Rabbi Dr. Aaron Lichtenstein, the Rosh yeshiva of Yeshivat Har Etzion. I think he might be a first cousin. Jon513 21:21, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] accurecy

The ip address 203.214.133.79 believes that the section Christianity "need[s] to be rewritten with more accurecy". Jon513 17:06, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Judaism

The article belongs in the Judaism section. It has nothing to do with Christianity. Christianity is idolatry according to the Noachide Laws. Keep this article under Judaism. This article shouldn't have anything to do with Jewish-Christian "dialogue."

The key word here is JEWISH-Christian. You are eliminating the Jewish bit and keeping the Christian part

[edit] External links II

The external links on this page has gotten out of hand. Looking at the links, very few of them met the criteria of Wikipedia:External links and should be removed. I have already tried to removed many of these sites in the past and they seem to just be constantly put back in. I don't have any inclination in edit waring with such people. Jon513 19:56, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

    • Are the above the reason why a link that I posted does not appear? I posted http://sagavyah.tripod.com [The Path of Abraham / Biblical Monotheism] which is the only site I have seen so far which collects the SOURCES for the Noachide Laws from the Mishneh Torah. The Mishneh Torah is the only historical codification of Jewish law which also codifies the Noahide Laws, though of course there are some disagreements among poskim about a few specific details of the Noahide Laws. Nonetheless, ANYONE who is somewhat familiar with Orthodox Judaism and the Noahide laws should know that Maimonidies Mishneh Torah is the main AUTHORITATIVE source for these laws in Jewish history, aside from the Talmud itself. Could someone please explain to me why the site I mentioned above does not appear? If it's a matter of the Mishneh Torah not being an authoritative source on the Noahide Laws, then I don't know what is. Additionally, of all the websites I've seen on the topic of the Noahide Laws, I do not know any other site which goes into detail about the Noahide Laws while all the time making clear distinction between the Noahide Laws themselves, as codified from the Talmud, and the various interpretations and applications of these laws which various individuals have made over time. Thanks. - Mikhael

[edit] Cleanup

I find the layout of this article to be too inclusive of different noahide issues. Please note, I agree that the content is good, I am acting in good faith.

  1. The Seven Laws of Noah should have its own article and be the main article on the topic having noahide laws merged with it.
  2. B'nei Noah has also been tagged for cleanup, so I think perhaps noahide could be its new title, replacing the hebrew title.
  3. There should be a noahide template as apposed to the present Judaism one.

The main point is that the Seven Laws of Noah will only be about the laws, the origin and their subdividions. All else will have its own article. Chavatshimshon 06:58, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

This is the sort of thing that editors can do when they are being "bold" here in wikipedia. It does seem like a bit of work to me, and that it requires far more knowledge of this area than I have. I might go and develop the footnotes section a bit in the meantime, though. - Kukini 01:18, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Chavatshimshon, sorry I'm late to the party. I guess you noticed my discussion of the Noahide Laws in the Clementine literature, which are believed to be of Jewish-Christian origin. How can I help with the cleanup? Ovadyah 02:43, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the above statement that this article should be only about Noahide Laws and not Noahide groups. I would start by putting the Recent Developments and Other Religions sections in an archive to separate this material from the main page. There may be some useful material in there that can be retrieved later.
With respect to the main topic, it reads too much like an editorial. It's as if someone looked up the Laws in the Talmud and provided a commentary on what they mean. Interesting reading, but it's also original research. It would be better to look at the history of the Noahide Laws and report on what scholars or historical figures think they mean.
The current section on subdividing the laws is a list of lists. All this material needs to be put in summary style.
To make this article truly NPOV, I would bring together the versions of the Noahide Laws from the Talmud, Acts 15, and the Clementines, then report on scholarly discussions of what is the same and what is different. What are the remaining contentious issues, if any, about which scholars can't agree? If these Laws can be retrieved from the Mishnah, that would be preferable, since the Talmud is much later than the other sources. Ovadyah 14:06, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I disagree. As Noahide Law is first and foremost a topic in Jewish law (halakha), the talmud and its commentaries should be presented as mainstream. Acts 15 and Celmentines is a separate subject which some equate with Noahide Law and others do not. While the talmud and its commentaries cannot be easily read by everyone it is in no way original research. It is standard practice in all topics of Jewish law and rituals to use the original talmudic source, not scholarly sources, to quote Jewish laws. Jon513 22:13, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
It could be split: Noahide Laws (Judaism) and Noahide Laws (Christianity), there are plenty of other similar precidents. The earliest reference is Jubilees 7:20-33 (2nd century BCE) which is both Jewish apocrypha and Christian scripture (Ethiopian Orthodox). 75.14.208.206 00:11, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
What evidence is there that a notable body of Christianity calls its rules of behavior for non-Jewish converts "Noahide laws"? So far as the sources that have been provided are concerned, the idea that the two concepts are the same, or that the Jewish phrase is appropriate for the Christian concept, seems to be entirely original research. Best, --Shirahadasha 00:55, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

There is plenty of WP:RS, see Council of Jerusalem. Also, "Noahide Law" is an English phrase, not a Jewish phrase. 75.14.223.198 19:36, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Folks, I was asked to come here to help, not pour more gas on the fire, so please assume I am acting in good faith. A lot of sharp disagreements are taking place on this talk page. Imho, some disagreement is healthy, and it will make for a better article. Don't let it degrade into incivility. (See the Nazarene archives for how bad it can be.)

First of all, our job as editors is to report the facts as we find them in credible sources. Stating that the Noahide Laws are Jewish halakah, and therefore the mainstream opinion, is original research. Citing a review article or scholarly publication that says so is reporting the evidence. The Talmud is an appropriate source for listing the Noahide Laws. An editor's interpretation of what the Noahide Laws mean based on the Talmud is religious commentary, and therefore, original research. I would say the same for any commentary about Acts 15 or the Clementines. Similarly, stating that Acts 15 and the Clementines are a separate subject is an opinion. Fine for the talk page, not fine for the article. A published source that reaches that conclusion is fine for the article. An opposing view from a published source that says they all derive from the same source document is also fine, and including that view would make for an even better article. Follow the evidence. Ovadyah 20:18, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

OK, it is very good we are discussing this. The article will be cleaned up in accords to the very source of the Noahide Laws themselves which is the Talmud. Citing Council of Jerusalem as source for the said idea would not be in line with Wikipedia:Citing Wikipedia, where as citing the Talmud is in line with Wikipedia:Citing sources. The one thing I would like us to establish is that this article should detail the laws and shortened in the general. In the process we could create a bunch of other articles. FrummerThanThou 10:33, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree with this course of action. There is so much good material here already, it should not be that difficult. I would start by archiving material that is outside the scope of this article, such as Noahide groups. This will end up in a separate article. Let's agree on the outline of the article for the remaining material. For example, I would like to see a History section. JFW already mentioned some useful historical references in the archives. We should also agree on how to disagree if possible. Minority views based on verifiable sources will make for a better article. Ovadyah 15:35, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I am going to proceed with the cleanup by creating an archive on the talk page for Noahide Groups and move the Recent Developments and Other Religions as Noahide sections into it, as I stated previously. Nothing will be lost. We need to narrow the scope of the article and focus on the essentials. Ovadyah 01:10, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I would not waste time right now on the Subdividing the Seven Laws section. This all needs to be rewritten in summary style. Let's work on the lead section and the Intro/Backgound and Seven Laws sections first. Ovadyah 01:29, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I created an External Links section in the archive. Someone, please move most of these links to the archive, and only keep the links that are essential for the Noahide Laws. Ovadyah 01:37, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I moved all of the links to the Noahide Groups archive. This section was like free advertising for every Noahide group under the sun. Move back only those links that deal specifically with the Noahide Laws themselves. Ovadyah 18:10, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
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