Talk:Nitrogen

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Article changed over to new Wikipedia:WikiProject Elements format by David M, and Malcolm Farmer. Elementbox converted 12:08, 23 Jun 2005 by Femto (previous revision was that of 02:15, 18 Jun 2005). \=== Information Sources === Some of the text in this entry was rewritten from Los Alamos National Laboratory - Nitrogen. Additional text was taken directly from USGS Nitrogen Statistics and Information, USGS Periodic Table - Nitrogen, from the Elements database 20001107 (via dict.org), Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) (via dict.org) and WordNet (r) 1.7 (via dict.org). Data for the table was obtained from the sources listed on the main page and Wikipedia:WikiProject Elements but was reformatted and converted into SI units.

Contents 1 nitrogen 2 premalignant 3 Is nitrogen or liquid nitrogen adding to conductor to make it superconductor and how? 4 uptation 5 nitrogen really colourless? 6 nitrogen tire inflation comment 7 Instant frostbite? 8 Liquid Nitrogen on food? 9 Nitrogen safety 10 Cryogenic History 11 Liquid nitrogen 12 Vandalism on Intro Paragraph 13 N2 in tires 14 Liquid to solid Nitrogen Video

[edit] nitrogen

[edit] premalignant

Sure, use that word if you want. Richard Cane 20:56, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, Richard. Precancerous sounds amateurish, or maybe it's just me :-) JFW | T@lk 21:59, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Is nitrogen or liquid nitrogen adding to conductor to make it superconductor and how?

Liquid nitrogen can make certain materials superconduct because it lowers their temperature, not due to any property of nitrogen itself.

[edit] uptation

tis needs to show how nitrogen is used by plants and how it can be returned if deplenished :*) Scout 21 16:01, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] nitrogen really colourless?

Well, if you see this [1] - air is supposedly slightly blue. Nitrogen being the major component of this, I would expect to be slightly blue in hue - or is this due to the water vapor? -- Natalinasmpf 01:00, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

The scientific folklore, as I remember it, claims that it is the oxygen in our atmosphere causing the blue tint. WayneConrad 20:43, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Oxygen is blue due to the electronic configuration of dioxygen allowing a forbidden transiton to occur (electron spin inversion) which absorbs yellow light.

[edit] nitrogen tire inflation comment

The comment regarding tire inflation may be incorrect. According to the entries on Nitrogen and Oxygen, the Atomic Radius, Covalent Radius and Van Der Waals Radius are all larger for Nitrogen than Oxygen.--Osudude 16:56, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

It's definitely wrong; oxygen generally diffuses faster than nitrogen. See for example: http://www.uigi.com/noncryo.html#Membrane http://www.airproducts.com/Products/Equipment/PRISMMembranes/page01.htm

Nitrogen has a lower molar mass than oxygen (from looking at the periodic table), so the reference the Graham's law should be deleted and further explanation of why nitrogen diffuses slower than oxygen should be given.

Molecular diameter difference between oxygen and nitrogen overcomes their mass difference effect on diffusion.: http://www.sumitomoseika.co.jp/english/product/n2psa.html

My recollection is that that as the atomic number is increased, the atomic diameter decreases if the marginal electron in both elements is in the same shell. Nitrogen and oxygen both top out in the 2 p-orbital, so oxygen being the heavier of the two is smaller in diameter. Likewise flourine is even smaller in diameter and diffuse more rapidly through porous surfaces. Argon on the other hand, which is used to fill the tires of some luxury cars, is in the next period of the table, topping out in the 3 p orbitals, and thus has a much larger diameter and mass than any 2nd period element, and thus has an even lower rate of diffusion.Badocter 19:25, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

This is not a position on how nitrogen diffuses through tires vs. oxygen, but there are two problems with the current assertions. First, a proper like to like comparison should be of common air vs. pure nitrogen, not oxygen vs. nitrogen. Nitrogen is 78.08% of Earth's atmosphere, and oxygen is 21%. Tires inflated with anything besides bottled gases are already going to be over three-quarters nitrogen. Second, when comparing free nitrogen to free oxygen, the comparison should be N(2) vs. O(2) rather than N(2) vs O; in this case, is the current statement in error? ("Nitrogen molecules are larger than oxygen molecules and therefore...").

[edit] Instant frostbite?

There is a statement that liquid nitrogen can produce "instant frostbite" on contact with living tissue. That depends on what you mean by "instant." You can put a finger or even most of a hand into LN2 and semi-casually flip it around and stir it, without damage, as long as you remove it within the contact limit of about 2 seconds. The Leidenfrost effect protects you for that long, and no frostbite of skin damage is seen. It's just a bit cool. If you guage the timing correctly you can shock onlookers who've read articles like this one, but never actually fooled around with LN2 much. I know, you're going to say WP:NOR. But back at you. Got a reference for instant frostbite? And please quantitate "instant."Steve 21:45, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

The stunt is not without an element of risk as the timing is critical, and since it is done with rapid movement, there is significant risk of splashing the LN2 on one's clothes (or worse, someone elses) -- the Liedenfrost effect won't protect you if you are wearing clothes soaked with LN2 for any period of time. For instruction of proper handling of LN2: http://www.2spi.com/catalog/instruments/nitrodew-supp.html . Dermatologists often use cotton swabs dipped in LN2 for treatment of skin conditions since contact does cause frostbite and death of the top few layers of skin cells in the areas treated -- because of the speed of the treatment and low thermal conductivity of the skin, deeper tissue is not adversely impacted. Frostbite risk is documenented in the MSDS sheet for LN2: http://www.safety.vanderbilt.edu/pdf/hcs_msds/NitrogenCryo_G103_06_04.pdf . Instant is an arguably vague term, clarifying with the words " within a few seconds" is all that was needed.Badocter 03:22, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I didn't deliberately take out the statement-- dunno what happened to it. Was waiting on concensus. Agreed that LN2 on absorbant clothes or shoes is a disaster. In derm, LN2 is applied to skin in a very different way than when a hand or finger is "dunked" in LN2. A cotton swab seems to act in freezing skin much faster than skin freezes when a finger is put into LN2. Must be a surface-area phenom.Steve 03:58, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I might add also that the special dermatology sprayer delivers an LN2 mist which has a hugely greater surface area and heat transfer capability than a glob of liquid of the same mass, so again it acts like the vastly larger area of LN2 as you'd get on a swab. The mist really does cause instant frostbite while the glob will sizzle and airhockey slide off unprotected skin, like water on a hot tilted grill, causing no harm. So both of us are really right-- it entirely depends on the circumstances. Get LN2 on your skin in a dispersed fashion and you get instant damage. The liquid globs on bare skin without dispersion by spray or swab or clothing, or dunking the skin into straight liquid, is not instant. Steve 13:34, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

My experience with dermatologists is limited to my acne treatment as a teen, and the cotton swab with LN2 was what my dermatologist used, but that was many moons ago and I expect things have advanced since then. Best Regards.Badocter 17:44, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Liquid Nitrogen on food?

I heard on the show Beyond Tomarrow on the Science Channel, that there's a resturant called Moto in Chicago, IL, that serves French Onion Soup with liquid nitrogen layered on top. I'm wondering, how could they do this safely? It sounds kind of risky. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Violet yoshi (talk • contribs) .

I can assure you, if handled by trained professionals, French onion soup is absolutely safe. Oh, you mean the nitrogen… Assuming you're not supposed to actually eat it while it's cold and boiling, I'd say it's less risky than your average flambé any time. Femto 13:46, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I didn't see the show, but I'm thinking that it was probably a joke. 161.16.0.50 21:11, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

No I saw the show. Liquid nitrogen is lighter than water and skates around on the surface of liquid water like an air hockey puck, on its own gas cussion, due to the Leidenfrost effect (this also happens when you pour it on a flat floor-- it takes off in every direction). And on water, these drops do very little but generate fog, like when you put dry ice in water. So long as you wait to eat it until the drops of liquid nitrogen are gone (fog stops forming, sizzle stops), you're fine. No more than a few seconds would be needed. You could get a nasty mouth cryo-burn before then, though, in theory. As for the soup, with small dolips of nitrogen, you can't cool it below freezing this way, until it's ALL frozen. Which obviously doesn't happen. So if it's liquid, and the nitrogen is gone, the remaining soup is above ice temp and drinkable.SBHarris 22:10, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nitrogen safety

Is anyone familiar with how gaseous Nitrogen kills? I don't think it works as a simple asphyxiant, i.e. that it supposedly displaces oxygen. I remember hearing from a safety guy that that's not the case; it it were, it would hurt kind of like drowning. But it's supposed to be unnoticable and painless. 161.16.0.50 20:35, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

It IS a simple asphyxiant. Drowning is unpleasant because it's not fun to have liquid in your lungs. Also because CO2 is building up, which doesn't happen when you breathe nitrogen (or any gas asphyxiant). You're low on oxygen, but can still get rid of CO2, so the sensation of needing to breathe doesn't happen. Humans have good CO2 sensors, which makes holding our breath (or being choked) very unpleasant. But we have lousy low-O2 sensors, so breating gas with no oxygen in it, hardly bothers us at all, till we black out.

That's not true of all animals! Rabbits and burrowers have very good hypoxia sensors, so "drowning" in nitrogen is very unpleasant for them. It's quite a different experience from that of humans. The question comes up occassionally in AALAS discussions of acceptable methods of euthanasia for different species of animals. For humans, replacing hydrogen cyanide gas with nitrogen in the gas chamber would be far more humane (and has been proposed, but hasn't been done, mainly for dumb historical and legalistic reasons). But don't test the system on a poor bunny!

By the way, nitrogen isn't capitalized in English. No element is. Just the symbols are. SBHarris 22:04, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cryogenic History

It is worh mentioning that Nitrogen was first liquified in 1883 by Wrobleski and Olzewski. (Taken from "Cryogenic Technology" edited by Robert W. Vance, published by John Wiley & sons inc. 1963)

[edit] Liquid nitrogen

Would there be any value in splitting off liquid nitrogen as a separate article similar to liquid oxygen? I'm thinking that there are sufficiently many applications of the liquid, compared with the gas. Also, cryogenics using liquid nitrogen can be more thoroughly discussed there. --Rifleman 82 10:41, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism on Intro Paragraph

The user Takiasuu vandised the nitrogen article with the following intro paragraph:
Nitrogen (IPA: /ˈnʌɪtrə(ʊ)dʒən/) is a retarded element which has the symbol FUCK YOU and atomic number 2billion in the periodic table. Retarded nitrogen is a colorless, baldy, tasteless and mostly inert diatomic retarded at standard conditions, giving off 78.08% percent of gas into our mouths and Earth's ass. Nitrogen is a gay element of all living tissues and amino acidsand loves to have sex with the element argon. Many industrially gay compounds, such as ammonia, nitric acid, and cyanides, contain nitrogen's sperm.

I have reverted the page and added a warning to the user's talk page. --Wiki Fanatic | Talk 03:24, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] N2 in tires

Does anyone else think the claim that "Nitrogen molecules are larger than oxygen molecules and therefore, all else being equal, larger molecules diffuse through porous substances slower than smaller molecules." is juuust a bit iffy? I mean we're talking like 2 freaking picometers here. Its barely a few percent difference. I suspect that most of the difference seen in N2 and O2 loss from tires results almost entirely from O2's reactivity with the rubber. Do we at least have a source for the molecule size claim?--Deglr6328 11:25, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Liquid to solid Nitrogen Video

I have removed the link to the video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ndbzw60fiYU.

Although this is an interesting video - the way it has been videoed is highly dangerous - and may encourage danergous repeat experiments.

Not only is the nitrogen and helium (used to solidify the nitrogen) extremely cold well under -200 degrees (this temperature if exposed to, could cause almost instant destruction of tissue - as almost showed when this investigator froze his thumb off), but there is a risk of asphyxiation if the room is not well ventilated or the liquid helium is knocked over. Also the investigators do not use appropriate BASIC safety gear - like face guard (one splash of liquid helium in the eye and you are blind), only one glove, adequate ventilation to avoid asphyxiation.

We can not on wikipedia link to this video - the screen shot is not a problem - to do so might encourage people that this is the correct way to handle these extremely dangerous chemicals.

Please either leave a comment here or on my talk page! Lethaniol 14:43, 6 December 2006 (UTC)