Talk:Nikola Karev

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[edit] POV Template

I don't understand why the POV template is necessary. Can you provide more detail as to which section is POV, because it is unsourced, original research or some other issue?  /FunkyFly.talk_   14:33, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Macedonian or Bulgarian?

FunkyFly, why you needed this? My change wasn't in direction that Karev was Macedonian. I have point out that he is considered both Macedonian and Bulgarian. Why it isn't acceptable for you? By the way, this aticle need to be improved a lot, because it is more an article about the Ilinden uprising than for Karev, so I'll appreciate a lot if you are constructive here. (Zdravko mk 06:27, 1 June 2006 (UTC))

It's not acceptable, as there is no identification as Macedonian on his behalf that is provided   /FunkyFly.talk_   15:48, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

And can you give some proves that he has identified himself as a Bulgarian? Meanwhile, I will put that POV back. And again, I'll ask you to be cooperative, or I can try other ways (Zdravko mk 06:19, 2 June 2006 (UTC))

For one, he was a member of BMARC. Read point 3 of the statute   /FunkyFly.talk_   14:35, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, TMORO was the name of the organization when Karev has joined it. Secondly, the only members of TMORO wasn't members with ethnic Bulgarian feelings. And stop being so stubborn!!!!!!!!!! (Zdravko mk 16:19, 2 June 2006 (UTC))

Wrong, he joined BMARC.   /FunkyFly.talk_   16:25, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Karev was a socialist. The socialists born in Macedonia have joined TMORO only after 1902! So, after the name of the organization was renamed. I don't know how you enjoy being so nationalistic here. If you have nationalist attitudes go somewhere else. This is Wikipedia, not some nationalist garbage (Zdravko mk 12:14, 5 June 2006 (UTC))

Goce Delchev was a socialist too, yet he joined in 1894. I added the passage that he is considered ethnic Macedonian in the Republic of Macedonia   /FunkyFly.talk_   18:03, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I have found various claims about the date when he entered the IMRO, the earliest being 1899. As explained in the Goce Delchev's talk page, it almost certain that the name of the organization was already SMARO in 1898, because:

  • There is a SMARO constitution dated "1898" in the British Foreign Office documents: PRO. - FO 78/4951. Turkey (Bulgaria). From Elliot. 1898; УСТАВ НА ТМОРО. S.I.
  • In two of his 1898 letters Goce Delchev identifies himself as representative of SMARO, and his respondent, archibishop Menini apparently recognizes him as such.

--FlavrSavr 15:01, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

As Nikola Karev entered the organization when it's name was SMARO, I don't see a particular reason why we should add that the IMRO was known known as Bulgarian Macedonian-Adrianople Revolutionary Committees before 1902, because:

  • There is no proof that the organization was generally known as BMARC before 1902, or any time before that.
  • As far as I know, apart from the famous BMARC constitution, repeated zillion times, from the correspondence of IMRO activists, there is no proof that the operational name of the organization was BMARC.
  • The most commonly used name for the organization in English, Macedonian, and Bulgarian is IMRO, despite the fact that the name was given as late as 1920.

I might be wrong, of course, much is speculated about "BMARC" but I'll require sources, to counter my claims. --FlavrSavr 15:01, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] To Flavrsavr who vandalizes

Let me quote a source for you: Who are the Macedonians? by Hugh Poulton, page 53. He says: this organization [VMRO] repeatedly and confusingly changed its name, often as a balance between pro-Bulgarian and pro-Macedonian autonomists (...). It appears to have been originally called the Bulgarian Macedonian-Adrianopolitan Committee (BMORK - the 'O' standing for Odrin or Adrianopole). In 1902 it changed its name to the Secret Macedonian Adrianopolitan Revolutionary Organization (TMORO) while from 1905 it was first known as VMORO and then simply VMRO, where the 'V' stands for 'inner' in Bulgarian. Let me ask you something. Do you have a source that says that this wasn't its original name or the date it was renamed? If not, I advise you to look for something instead of threatening. Also, in that link all he says is that he is a Macedonian. Well even Arben Xhaferi and Kostas Karamanlis are Macedonians. Macedonian can refer to any person from Macedonia whatever their ethnicity.

Thank you for using the talk page. Finally someone to actually cite a source about it. (I'll check into it, though). Of course I have a source about SMARO, I used it in the Goce Delchev's talk page:

[edit] Sources that GD was a member of SMARO in 1898

Here are my sources (to be honest, I didn't expect to find such an explicit statement that GD was the leader of SMARO, not BMARC in 1898)

  • A letter from Goce Delchev to the Archibishop Menini

11 july 1898

Foreign representation of SMARO Sofia

To His Excellency The Archibishop of Plovdiv Mr. Mennini

... Our SMARO is nowadays labeled a terrorist organisation from many representatives of the Christian states, firstly because of the ignorance of our struggle, and secondly because of the personal interests of their states...

The letter is signed by Gjorgji (Goce) Delchev. There is also a similar letter to the same person (Archibishop Menini, send on 3 July 1898, in which again he is a member of SMARO. I'm too lazy at the moment to translate the SMARO parts of that letter).

As per: Archivio della S. Congregazione de Propaganda Fide - Indice della Ponenza di Luglio 1898, Somm. II, 8, f. 4 - 18 - Разгледи, XIII/9-10 (1971), 978-980.

--FlavrSavr 02:27, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

  • A letter from Archibishop Menini to the Holy Congregation for the Propaganda of the Faith

12 july 1898

Plovdiv Holy Archibishopry no. 398 12 july 1898 Plovdiv

To the Holy Congregation for the Propaganda of the Faith Rome

Your Eminency, Enclosed to this letter are the two letters which I have received from the representative of the Secret Macedonian-Adrianople Organisation Gjorgji Delchev related to the given favors to some Macedonian revolutionaries...

As per: Archivio della S. Congregazione de Propaganda Fide - Indice della Ponenza di Luglio 1898, Somm. II, 8, f. 4 - 18 - Разгледи, XIII/9-10 (1971), 980-982.

(provided above) There is a SMARO constitution dated "1898" in the British Foreign Office documents: PRO. - FO 78/4951. Turkey (Bulgaria). From Elliot. 1898; УСТАВ НА ТМОРО. S.I. --FlavrSavr 15:41, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

According to your approach on Goce Delchev, a man who described himself as "Bulgarian", it is original research to infer that that means he was Bulgarian. You say you want a neutral source describing him as such. Now, you want to study his letters, and to draw inferences from them is not original research. In other words, Delchev's letters can be used to prove that the organization was called SMARO before 1902, but not that he declared himself Bulgarian, you want independent sources for the latter only. Smells like double standards to me - typical of Macedonism... --Tēlex 15:59, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
Telex, see Cigor's neutral sources on what "Bulgarian" could possibly mean (the ones which FF has erased at Macedonism). On the other hand, 12 july 1898 can only mean 12 july 1898. Besides, the widely accepted name for the organization is IMRO (not BMARC, not SMARO). --FlavrSavr 16:05, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
This reminds me of a joke I once heard. If GD had said I am a pure Bulgarian, f*ck the Macedonians, it would be interpreted as I am a pure Christian Slav, f*ck the Greek Macedonians, whereas if he said I am a pure Macedonian, f*ck the Bulgarians, that would as a rule be interpreted as I am a pure ethnic Macedonian, f*ck the ethnic Bulgarians. Typical Macedonistic double standards. There could be a million reasons for those letters, including the reason that Constantinople wasn't officially renamed to Istanbul until the 20th century. People referred to it using the new name and intended to officially change it, but never got round to it until a years later. Of course, it would be blasphemy to demand a modern independent source that BMARC wasn't renamed to SMARO until 1902. --Tēlex 16:14, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
Telex, 12 July 1898 is 12 July 1898. While it is possible that Hugh Poulton's (an Amnesty International researcher) book is valuable, it remains suspicious how he deducted that it changed the name in 1902 despite obvious evidence. Moreover, some logical questions also remain unanswered: how could Pitu Guli become a member of the organization if it was exclusively meant to accept ethnic Bulgarians? How come there are no operative documents of the organization under "BMARC" label? How come, even Tatarchev (arguably, the most pro-Bulgarian element of IMRO), says that the name of the organization in its beginning was "Macedonian Revolutionary Organization"? --FlavrSavr 16:43, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I haven't a clue. Take exception to the fact though that Rigas Feraios was also an Aromanian, and he did a lot for Greek independence. If Guli attended a Bulgarian Church, self-identified as Bulgarian, etc, then there is no reason not be believe he was Bulgarian. Aromanians were not an ethnic group per se, but some sided with all sides - Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbs and even Romanians. I raised this issue at Talk:Pitu Guli. In Greece, no one has ever heard of these names, BMARC, SMARO, IMRO etc. We just refer to them as Bulgarokomitadzides who committed atrocities on the native Greek population of Macedonia, dreaming of what Rugova is dreaming for Kosovo. --Tēlex 16:52, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
Telex, thanks for your answer. To be honest, I'm also confused about it. I don't deny the possibility that the name of the organization was at some point "BMARC". However, obviously, much is unclear. The point is that Pitu Guli is not an isolated case. There was a considerable amount of ethnic Aromanian rebels in the Ilinden Uprising - almost a half... The most notable I know were Pitu Guli and Dinu Vangeli. In Krushevo, the site of the Ilinden Uprising even today lives possibly the biggest Aromanian community in RoM, and they still proudly identify themselves as "Vlachs" and not as Macedonians/Bulgarians, so there cannot be a word of total assimilation. --FlavrSavr 17:11, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 1898

Funky, I don't understand your latest edits: don't Bulgarian and Macedonian historians claim that the organization's name was BMARC and SMARO from 1896, respectively? This is nothing about whether their claim is true or not... --FlavrSavr 02:12, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Before 1898 it was BMARC, undisputedly.   /FunkyFly.talk_  05:12, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
It is disputed. Not only it is disputed by Macedonian historians, but it's also disputed by Tatarchev's "Macedonian Revolutionary Organization". Moreover, the 1898 addition makes a false sentence altogether - that is not what Macedonian and Bulgarian historians claim. --FlavrSavr 18:09, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
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