Talk:Nguni

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

this article seems to contradict itself.

apparently it says that nguni is, well as a group of languages, also a group of ethnic groups, and then apparently says it ISN'T.

i suspect that i'm not the only person who is getting confused by this.

Gringo300 15:03, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 Removed duplication 2 Use of term nguni 3 A few problems 4 Examples 5 Languages 6 Religion

[edit] Removed duplication

I have taken out some of the duplication (e.g. explanation of Xhosa social structure) and internal contradiction. Nguni is commonly used to describe both the people and their languages, but it seems logical that information about specific Nguni groups belongs in articles pertaining to those groups. Humansdorpie 15:50, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Use of term nguni

Copied from User talk:Humansdorpie

I don't, unfortunately. I've just been flicking through current (2006) UNISA History lectures on Turmoil and Transformation in the Southern African Interior, though. They use Nguni and northern Nguni very matter-of-factly throughout to refer to ethnic groups. Elizabeth Isichei, writing in 1997, [1] makes the points that (a) the word has changed meaning over the last 400 years, and (b) that no ethnic group in present-day South Africa considers itself Nguni - I think her view is that its use is faintly Eurocentric [2]. Isichei compromises by using 'Nguni' in quotation marks as shorthand to describe "African peoples who live east of the Drakensbergs and south of the Tsonga of Mozambique" and their languages. "So-called", in other words... but I think the article already makes that point. Humansdorpie 20:19, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Oh. Because Zimbabwean Ndebele friends assure me they are Nguni, as do Chichewa-speaking friends in Malawi. Perhaps this is a SAfrican thing. I get the impression that, in reaction to the way ethnic identification was (ab)used in the past, SA is in flight from some terms which are happily used as self-descriptors elsewhere on the continent. There's a discussion about just this at bantu. Or I might just be wrong... But yes, the article should reflect the different sensibilities on this.

[edit] A few problems

Where does this lunatic fringe theory that "Nguni" is an artificial term come from (citations, people!)? And why does the article have a link to a redirect to itself? There should obviously be a separate Nguni languages article, this article at present is less than a stub Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 17:38, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Clarified the issue by adding a reference to Wright (1987) and elaborating on what he says. And you're right of course about the need for a solid article on the Nguni languages. — mark ✎ 14:43, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I had a talk with User:JackyR about this a while ago (the conversation is still on her talk page). A brief reading of the history of South Africa suggests that the Nguni speaking peoples do share a common history. Where does the term Ngoni come from if "Nguni" was only "invented" in the 30s? Also note my example from the Sesotho languages, or will you dismiss this as original research?

No, I didn't mean to say that it was invented in the 30s; only that since the 30s, it has come into use as a wider ethnological label the accuracy of which is disputed by some. It is obviously related to Ngoni (the two are just alternate spellings); and I am sure that some (if not all) of the groups that are nowadays called Nguni also share a common history. Wright (1987) just notes that this use of the term Nguni suggests a historical, monolithical unity where in fact there most probably were several closely related groups. — mark ✎ 18:47, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but the article seems to me say matter-of-factly that "Nguni" is a fictitious partitioning and that everyone considers the idea old-fashioned and incorrect - I don't. Could you please wait untill I'm done with my post before you respond? You know my problem, right? Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 18:59, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I know your problem. I wasn't aware that you weren't done yet. I have improved the wording so that it is more clear that not all dispute the term.

Speaking of which, how's your thesis going? Is writing a thesis hard work? Are all those seemingly arbitrary citations really necessary (it frustrates me when I try to teach myself something and I see "was derived in (Smith 1985)"). My email has changed, btw. Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 18:44, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

<cough> I'm working on it right now (or should be). It's actually going quite well; I just need some time off sometimes. And yeah, it is hard work, and those citations are really necessary if you want to do more than re-inventing the wheel. — mark ✎ 19:34, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

"is has never been questioned"? (!?) Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 19:55, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Hm, typo. So, as it is now, I hope the article makes clear that almost everyone (linguistics and ethnologists alike) is happy to use the term Nguni, but that some (like Wright) have raised questions as to the exact use of the term as a generic label, seeing that it might imply a monolithic ethnicity whereas in fact matters may well have been a little more complex historically. To be clear, there is nothing 'artificial' about the term itself; Wright's point is just that its use has changed over time and that one should be aware of that (as happens to every label, of course; see Dorobo for a more dramatic example). — mark ✎ 20:43, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Examples

Joziboy, don't you mean ukuthanda, not ukufuna? Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 07:07, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Oops, yup I did indeed mean ukuthanda, thanks. I've changed it. And I definitely agree about the need for a separate article on Nguni languages. Unfortunately I know less than nothing about Ndebele and Siswati.. but hopefully some linguists out there do! :) Joziboy 19 May 2006, 18:43 (UTC)

[edit] Languages

I'm not sure about that new sentence that's been added - are there even Nguni speakers in Mozambique? Xitsonga isn't Nguni. Joziboy 08:28, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, Mozambique Xitsonga (Shangane) has been influenced quite a bit by the isiZulu spoken by Difaqane refuges (apparently Soshangane was the name of an umZulu general). However, the sentence is rather idiotic (they also speak their country's official languages - how many, and why is this significant/noteworthy?) - remove it. Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 08:52, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

No, Shangane is not an Nguni language, and I don't know of any Nguni language spoken by a significant number of people in Mozambique (although a lot of immigrants to South Africa tend to speak isiXhosa as well, for some weird reason...). Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 08:56, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Man I wanted to call it Shangaan and then thought I'd be PC considering the grilling I got on the Languages of South Africa template talk page ;) But yeah, it is a fairly arb sentence - I mean, some Zulu and Xhosa people speak English or Afrikaans too. But when they don't, they speaking an Nguni language. Is Xhosa really common among immigrants? Isn't it hard? Joziboy 21:56, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

No, Shangane is okay, since this is the name used by many Vatsonga (esp from Mocambique). In popular slang you also have "machangane" which is this weird thin polony type thingy sometimes used in junk food with bread, atchar, and chips (almost like kota/s'khambane/bunnie chow). Whom are you calling PC!? Seriously, dude - isiXhosa! Not only is it a mildly difficult language it's also spoken in the country's South! Why not learn the popular isiZulu or Northern languages like Setswana? Also, many of them seem to get isiXhosa speaking girlfriends (well, the one Mutsonga immigrant I know and some I've heard of - but I'm being prejudiced now). Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 09:43, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Religion

Once you understand completely what animism is, and make the effort to understand African Traditional Religion(s), you'll realise that this is not animism. We need decent articles on Shembe and his church, and the ZCC. Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 09:55, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Nguni"