Talk:Nezami

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[edit] Protected

Per a request at WP:RfPP, I've protected this article to interupt the current edit war. Please use the talk page to discuss changes to the article, and once you have all reached consensus and believe protection to no longer be necessary, I will unprotect. Note that my protecting the current version is not an edorsement of that version--I just protected what was up when I got here. I also removed the {{copyedit}} tag, as the article's currently protected and should not be edited. AmiDaniel (talk) 20:27, 8 June 2006 (UTC)


[edit] My Suggestion

It seems there is three/four major disputes and instead of writing long messages, here is my suggestion:

1) The ethnicity of Nizami's father. This is never known for 100% and there is no unanamious consideration. Indeed I certaintly believe by the evidence I brought Nizami was ethnic Iranic and Mr. Baguirov wants to force an interpretation of a certain verse, which is not supported in the old and new English translations and also the symbolism is apparent as I have demonstrated above (see the Rumi, Khaghani, Attar quotes). Since all the major scholars of the West and the latest source have never called Nizami's father a Turk, nothing will be written about the ethnicity of his father. The Kurdish mother is not in dispute. So that is left alone

2) Shirin the Armenian and Christian. This is supported by the most recent and ancient sources. The latest source, Encyclopedia Iranica also calls her Armenian. So does the book of Dr. Talattof. Her Christianity is supported by major references as she was an actual person in Khusraw's court. See the quotes by the Cambridge history of Iran I brought that she is a Christian. So this part is not in dispute from the latest available scholarly sources.


3) .As per the term Persian poet, we have already mentioned a Kurdish mother, so I do not see a problem with it, specially since Persian poet means composer in the Persian language. A large amount of sources have called him a Persian poet. I grant some USSR sources after Stalin said: "Must not be surrendered to Iranian literature" have called him an Azerbaijani poet. But for example Bertels before the USSR era consistently mentioned him as a Persian poet. To resolve this dispute, I can suggest Persian language poet who contributed to Persian literature and culture. The fact is in the end culture and language will determine the ethnicity when someone's background is in dispute and Nizami's heritage is in the Persian language and culture. Neither the modern state of Iran nor Azerbaijan nor even the concept of citizenship existed back then. So calling Nizami Iranian or Azerbaijani from a geographical viewpoint does not make sense. It is like calling Homer or some other figure of ancient Greece as Turk because he was born in what is today known as Turkey. But the concept of Iran as geographical entity and Iranian as an ethnic idea can be proven and existed since the Sassanid times. So the term Azerbaijani is purely ethnic term here and refers to Oghuz Turkic speakers. The term Iranian would also be ethnic term meaning an ethnic Iranic. The term Azerbaijan poet is not correct: a)Nizami did not write in Azerbaijani Turkish b) He was at least half Iranic and I believe 100% Iranian (and this matter won't be settled), so by default of his half Kurdishness, he could not be simply called Turkic or even Azerbaijani.

4) There are harsh quotes about Turks(nomad, low descent,taraajgar, deli por ze kin, bi fitnah turki ze maadar nazaad...) and the quote from Lili O Majnoon does not exist in any reliable Persian to English translation done by Dr. Rudolf Gelpke has it correct. I demonstrate that a certain verse does not exist and Mr. Baguirov could not bring the original Persian either. English to English translations have a lot of extrapolations.. G.H. Darab also never translated Lili o Majnoon in 1945 and this was a forgery madeup. I suggest we get rid of the quote part, specially since people are interested to put ethnic materials where some of them really needs context. Else then one can bring the harsh quotes about Turks and then another user would have to try to explain intrepretations from his viewpoint and we get no where. I have already emailed Paul Smith (who does not know Persian) and he will most likely change that part that has no supporting verse.

I would like to hear hopefully in a polite tone from anyone that opposes these suggestion. Note I am being lenient because I believe Nezami Ganjavi is the 30,000 couplets he left behind as he himself said: He is alive through his poetry. Even one article in Britannica mentions him as a Persian poet, but we can keep the outline of the main Britannica article.

5) Let us start new in tone and discussion, we won't change our views on Nizami's father ethnicity and indeed I have some new materials which I can share more in, but it is not necessary here.

6) The page should be locked from future edits until all disputes are resolved.

--Ali doostzadeh 21:20, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

There is also another major dispute: his birthplace. I suggest to mention both versions (Qum, mentioned in the Britannica, and Ganja, mentioned in some other sources) with the explanation that this subject is disputed. As for his ethnicity: Nizami being "a Turk" is one of the most illogical claims ever. There is no known Turkish work of Nizami, although there WERE Turkish poets during his lifetime, for example the Turkish poet Yunus Emre. So, if Nizami were a Turk, he would have written in Turkish ... at least to some extent. But there seems to be a total lack to Turkish poetry, which deffinitly supports the claim of an Iranian, most likely Persian heritage. Tajik 22:25, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the suggestion and I agree with mentioning Qum as well as Ganja. And it is true, there is no Turkish verse from Nizami(and even the Turkish poet Alisher Navai admits it and I will bring the exact quote from Alisher Navai which also suggests Nizami was Iranian from a reliable translation) despite what Stalin claimed. Although I mentioned as well that although Qom is not in some of the older manuscripts, nevertheless many manuscripts and biographers of Islamic time have referred to it. My suggestion is though that we also use the material from encyclopedia Britannica. Nizami was not a Turk since he was at least half Kurdish and the other half I believe was Iranic as well (although some will always disagree and they will never accept it). As per new materials about him being Iranic or Turkic, I think we should discuss it somewhere else. I have put something new about Spand and Spandiyar and Nezami's mother in my latest message above. --Ali doostzadeh 22:42, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Just one comment. You can’t refer to older edition of Britannica, as Wiki rules discourage from using older Britannica. See Wikipedia:Reliable sources: Older editions such as the 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica often have fuller articles than current editions on some subjects, though there is always the danger that the information is outdated. So you can refer only to current edition of Britannica, which says nothing about Qum version. Grandmaster 05:03, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
It doesn't say I can't refer to the older one, just because the newer one is more succient. But for now, okay fine so are we going to all the way with the latest edition of Brittanica. The same Britannica in one article considers Nizami amongst Persian poets. Since I strongly believe Nizami was Iranian, but still my belief in his univerality is much stonger, I am open to suggestions myself. I hope all the history talks is over(and some things will never be agreed upon) and so we can come to agreement and I hope everyone starts with new politeness. Here is a quote by Britannica about Azeris: "are of mixed ethnic origin, the oldest element deriving from the indigenous population of eastern Transcaucasia and possibly from the Medians of northern Persia. This population was Persianized during the period of the Sasanian dynasty of Iran (3rd–7th century AD), but, after the region's conquest by the Seljuq Turks in the 11th century, the inhabitants were Turkicized, and further Turkicization of the population occurred in the ensuing centuries. So if Azarbaijanis consider themseves descendants of old Iranic people like Medes/Persians than I have no problem with calling Nizami a poet shared by Iranians and Azerbaijanis. But if Azerbaijani is strictly defined as Oghuz Turks, like the pan-turkists do, then I am very opposed since the cultural heritage of Nizami is Persian and he was no seljuqid/oghuz turk. As per ethnicity it is a Kurdish mother and although the Qom theory can not be ruled, I have not seen anything definite about the ethnicity of his father and there will never be anything definite. So we can mention his names. These compromises are due to the fact that I feel we were the same country 180 years and although the USSR did major damage to the culture of the area, I firmly believe in sharing the common heritage. As per Shirin, there is direct evidence from history books that she was a real person and a Christian. If her Armenianness is a major issue, let me know, but what is important is that scholarly texts have mentioned her as an Armenian and I have not seen one scholarly text from a major scholar of Persian literature to claim otherwise. Lets see what other people think.--Ali doostzadeh 06:07, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
I think the all differences can be resolved. In fact, Azerbaijani people don’t deny their Iranian and Caucasian heritage, but Oghuz culture is also part of it, but only one of the parts (language), as Britannica mentions. Grandmaster 06:21, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. In any compromise as you know all sides have to know that they can't get something 100%. So let us see what other people think. --Ali doostzadeh 06:33, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
I agree. Eventually we should reach a middle ground. Grandmaster 06:50, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A few minor edits

The article writes the name Nizami as Nezami the correct one is Nizami, but we should put up which one is more populair. Also the article avoids Nezami his lastname (penname) which is Ganjavi, this should be changed and also be added into the title. And after the born date it should be added were he was born which is Ganja in Arran nowadays Azerbaijan. You guys added a citation to the location of his birth which confirms Ganja but its still written Qum in Persia in the article? [1]. Also the article says about the contribution to Persian literature and culture but it should also add Azeri literature and culture along that. For simple reasons because he was born and lived in Azerbaijan and made a massive influence there and in Azerbaijan people are very proud on Nizami, so it has influenced it in the Azerbaijan regions aswell, I dont know about Iran though but I think Azerbaijani literture and culture should be added along that sentence. Baku87 08:46, 9 June 2006 (UTC)Baku87

Both Nizami and Nezami are correct. For example Afghani Persian would probably say Nizami and Tehrani Persian Nezami. I am not sure if Ganjavi is his pen-name. It is just a title added in later because of the city he lived in. Much like Khaghani-e-Shervaani or Hafez-e-Shirazi or Ferdowsi-e-Tusi... At that time, people usually had one name and not a first name and last name. About Azerbaijani literature that would be someone like Fuzuli who wrote in Azerbaijani Turkish. He are also contributed to Persian literature as well. Nizami solely wrote in Persian and hence Persian literature. Besides the stories of Nizami did not really have to do with Oghuz culture, although Azerbaijani culture as pointed out is a mixture of Iranian and Turkic culture. Probably the cultural aspect is more Iranian but the language is definitely Turkic and so Nizami did not write in Turkic. Also since the literature is part of culture, it is Persian culture as well. We already said we will add his heritage is shared by Iran (or as Encyclopedia Britannica put it Persian speaking lands) and Azerbaijan. I will be back in 12 hours or so. --Ali doostzadeh 18:05, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
But which name is more populair according to google, Nizami or Nezami? We should make the most populair one as the title. For all I know he is known as Nizami Ganjavi. And what do you think about his birthplace? There are 2 different sources who say the opposite but only 1 is actually used in the article. Another thing is literature doesnt only have to do with language, for example we have loads of people in Azerbaijan who write in Russian and this is still considered to be a contribution to Azerbaijani literature, so why make a exception here? Baku87 22:48, 9 June 2006 (UTC)Baku87
Both are correct, just like 'Ali and Ali are both correct. The good thing about Wikipedia is that it will redirect. Since the name is Arabic, and Arabs pronounce it as Nizami, I guess that is fine. That is how it is pronounced in some Persian dialects, Kurdish and Afghani Persian. At the same time, a similar page with Nezami can be redirected. For example some words are pronounced differently in Texan and New Yorkian English. As per people in Azerbaijan contributing to Russian literature, they are contributing to Russian language literature, so it is not Azerbaijani literature. Also the current Azerbaijani ethnicity is a synthesis between Caucasian, Iranian and Oghuz Turks if we take the Britannica definition, which I have not seen any disagreement. Such an interesting ethnicity did not exist during Nizami's time and plus we know he was at least half Kurdish and I am convinced the other half was Iranic although we will leave his fathers ethnicity out, since there is no absolute proof despite everyone thinking their theory is 100%. Also we are talking about literature and the language it is written in. If Iranians contribute to English literature, then I do not consider it a contribution to Persian or Iranian literature. Azerbaijani Turkish is a language and contribution directly to Azerbaijani literature by most definition simply means Nizami wrote in Azerbaijani Turkich, which he did not. So the term Persian literature is strictly a linguistic term and that is what Nizami contributed to. --Ali doostzadeh 23:00, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Then according to you since he has also Kurdish blood we should add Kurdish literature and culture aswell Baku87 17:30, 10 June 2006 (UTC)Baku87


Actually you are misreading. Blood has nothing to do with the literature Nizami contributed to. For example if I learn German and then write some German poems, then I am not contributing to Iranian literature but I am contributing to German literature. The definition is not according to me, but it is the logical and historical definition. So if you write some Arabic poems, you are contributing to Arab literature. That simple. As per ethnicity we know for sure he was half Kurdish and the other half although I believe is Iranian, it will be blank. Also here is a short poem by a 13th century author and historian Hamdollah Mostowfi: چند شهر است اندر ایران مرتفع تر از همه Some cities of Iran are better than the rest, بهتر و سازنده تر از خوشی آب و هوا these have pleasant and compromising weather, گنجه پر گنج در اران صفاهان در عراق The wealthy Ganjeh of Arran, and Isfahan as well, So I can make justifications for calling him Iranian.. but I won't and I am waiting for replies from the other side, so that a compromise is reached.

-Ali doostzadeh 17:57, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Good point, this is not a blood issue, do we have any records of him having written in Turkic? Is there any record that he had any ethnic encestry? Both of those are all that matters. Also I didn't knew that Shirin being Armenian was also debated. BTW, great job in documenting, but many of the things you brought here weren't really necessary. Regards. Fad (ix) 01:16, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
I concur, I was quite impressed with Ali doostzadeh's hard work and dedication.--Eupator 01:38, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Hi thanks for your comments. There is no Turkish work from the region during Nizami's time despite some invalid claims made throughout the discussion. There is not a verse of Turkish from Nizami and unfortunately Stalin claimed that Nizami had some Turkish work and such misconception started. Azerbaijani Turkish literature started developing during the Ilkhanid era(several poems and small works which are less than 10) and then during the Safavids it picks up. As per ethnic ancestery, his mother is a Kurd. As per his father, there is nothing definite and although nothing could be ruled out for, I firmly believe he was Iranian by my arguments and the other sides believes he was Turk by their argument. Either way the fact that he was 50% Iranian by ancestry is 100%. Some scholars also have mentioned Qom as the origin of his father since it is in some manuscripts and biographies, but this is not accept by all scholars. So the only thing we know about his father is what Nezami tells us: Yusuf the son of Zakki the son of Muhammad. The Christianity of Shirin is supported by all evidences and ancient sources, and she was an actual person. Her Armenianness is well known in Persian poetry and many Persian poets and even some Turkish (Alisher Navaii) have mentioned it. So the compromise I am trying to reach is that: "Nezami Ganjavi..born in Ganja..Kurdish mother. His fathers name was.... His heritage is shared by Iran and Azerbaijan..Made outstanding contributions to Persian literature and cutlre.". That should end this dispute, but I am waiting for other people and I am not sure what the silence is for. The page will be locked until there is a mutual agreement. I know I wrote a lot, but that was to be expected and I will compile and summarize what I wrote somewhere else since I am not here to push my view when Wikipedia has NOR. --Ali doostzadeh 01:37, 11 June 2006 (UTC)


For Baku87, on spelling here is what Britannica says: Nezami also spelled Nizami greatest romantic epic poet in Persian literature, who brought a colloquial and realistic style to the Persian epic. . --Ali doostzadeh 06:23, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Ok I understand your point Ali but Azeris started speaking Turkic language after the 12th century (well according to some sources and me) then untill the 12th century there was no contribution to Azeri literture? By the way I think we should add this photo of Nizami statue, I think its a real nice statue and represents him very well. Baku87 07:14, 11 June 2006 (UTC)Baku87
Thanks for the nice photo. IS it from Ganjah? It would be nice and accurate to have a photo of his tomb from Ganjah as well. As per Azerbaijani literatur, Qadi Burhan al-din of the 14th century and a certain Nusayr Bakui from the Ilkhanid era were the first to compose in this language from the area. I believe these were suppored by the Ilkhanid courts, who spoke both Persian and Turkish in their courts. Probably though the earliest sample is Hassan Asfarayani, from Asfarayn Khurasan from the 13th century. The Seljuqids either mixed in with lots of royal Iranian families(like the Nezam Almolk family and also the rulers of Tabarestaan and even Alisher Navaoi calls them Sart) and also they did not have any sort of nationalistic consciousness and considered themselves more Iranian than Turks.--Ali doostzadeh 13:30, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] new suggestions

Okay guys I am trying to accomadate the article so that everyone feels they can share in Nizami's heritage.

here is a start:

Nizami Ganjavi (نظامی گنجوی in Persian, Nizami Gəncəvi in Azerbaijani)‎ (1141 – 1209), whose full name was Nizām ad-Dīn Abū Muhammad Ilyās ibn-Yusūf ibn-Zakī ibn-Mu'ayyid is considered the greatest romantic epic poet in Persian literature, who brought a colloquial and realistic style to the Persian epic. His heritage is shared by Iran, Azerbaijan and Persian speaking lands. His mother, named Ra'isa, was of a Kurdish background and his fathers, named Yusuf is mentioned once by Nizami. Nizami was orphaned early and lived with his uncle. Nizami spent his lifetime in Ganja, the capital of Arran in what is now Azerbaijan, then part of Seljuq empire, where he also remained until his death and where currently his tomb is located.

Note I left controversial topics 1) like qom, 2) his father ethnic background (which we will never agree upon perhaps, although I am convinced it is 100% Iranian) out of the picture. Also one line quotes without context to display some nationalism will be left out. The article should try to display the humanity and universality of Nizami. I am still waiting for other users suggestion, specially those that I disagreed with in the past, mainly the following Wikipedia users: Grandmaster,AdilBaguirov, Baku87... Thanks. --Ali doostzadeh 05:35, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

  • support - sounds good to me. Tājik 18:43, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
  • I agree as well. —Khoikhoi 19:50, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
  • support - Although instead of Seljuk empire it should say Sultanate of Rûm.--Eupator 14:19, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
comment - The Sultanate of Rum never extended to Arran. At that time, it was a main domain of the Ildenizid atabekdom of Azerbaijan.--Kober 14:33, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for the prolonged absense, but it's good to see the emotions cool down and many people agreeing on things. My comments: the intro suggested by Ali is better than the present one. But 1) in the list, "shared by Iran, Azerbaijan and Persian speaking lands", Azerbaijan should go first, both due to alphabetic order, the birth place, and the fact that Azerbaijan is not a (predominantly) Persian speaking land - which it implies by having it sandwiched inbetween Iran and Persian speaking lands. Secondly, "Aran" is just a geographic area in between Kura and Araxes, which sometimes doubled as a substitute name for Caucasian Albania in Arabic and Iranian authors, i.e., also had a political connotation. But mainly, and in case of modern usage only, used as geographic entity, like Mughan or Shirvan. Meanwhile, Nizami was born, lived and died in one country, and the country's name was very precise, and well defined by by even Enc. Iranica [2] as the Atabek State of Azerbaijan (Atabakan-e Azerbaijan), which was also part of the Seljuk Empire (although the Great Atabeks of Azerbaijan were the main rulers of the Seljuk empire). Nizami is also mentioned in the article. Same with another article about Ganja, Nizami is mentioned again: “It thus came under Saljuq control and, in the later 6th/12th century under that of the Atabeg line of Ildegizids (see ATAÚBAKAÚN-E AÚZòARBAÚYJAÚN)….. The new town became the focus of a great period of efflorescence, seen in the laudatory verses quoted by Mostawf^ (Nozhat al-qolu@b, pp. 91-92) and its nurturing of the great poet Nezáa@m^ Ganjav^.” [3] Additionally, most scholars even in the West, call him "Nizami Ganjavi", and not just "Nezami". In Azerbaijani his name actually becomes Nizami Ganjali, and that's how they call him in his native Ganja. But most scholars, even Meisami, call him Nizami Ganjavi. This is regarding the less contentious portions.

Regarding Qom - I am not against mentioning this theory, but in light of evidence and quotes presented, it would require to write more (in terms of lines) to show that it was a latter addition, is not credible and is false. Likewise, since Qom issue is important only from the standpoint of the view about ethnic composition of the city, it would require to put information that Turkic population was quite sizeable at the time in Iran as well (and I think Cambridge History of Iran has relevant sources in English about that). Plus the fact that there is a Qom village in the mountains of north Azerbaijan, probably about 150 km from Ganja.

Shirin - she was not Armenian, but Arranian princess and later queen. Ali gave citations of other poets (i.e., not Nizami), such as Turkic poet from India Amir Khosrow Dehlevi, calling her queen of Armenia. That obviously doesn't translate into being Armenian. Moreover, Tigranes II Great, as well as all Orontides, Arsacids and Artaxias are called mistakenly by many as "Armenian" kings/dynasties, while being Persian and Parthian. Many Arabic language authors are routinely called Arab. But in any case, what others thought of Shirin is not very relevant - what matters, is who she was for Nizami. And she was, together with her aunt, 1) descendant of Afrasiyab, the mythical king of Turan/Turkestan; 2) drunk milk as her main food and 3) had almond or gazelle-like eyes. Nizami clearly based the character of Shirin on his wife Afak/Appaq. None other than most prominent ethnic Armenian poetess and expert on Nizami, prof. Marietta Shaginyan, dismissed Shirin's being Armenian, and corrects it to Arranian. Here are the relevant quotes from her book: “Arran princess Shirin” (M.Shaginyan, “Studies/sketches about Nizami”, 1955/1981, p. 23), and “Hammer is mistakenly calling Aghvans [Albans, Arranians – ed.] (inhabitants of Arran) as Armenians”, M.Shaginyan (ibid., p. 63), in critique of the European Orientalist’s 1818 book on Persian literature. That's probably one of the reasons for mistakes, when any Christian from South Caucasus was mistakenly called Armenian very often. Meanwhile, even "Armenian princess", like "Persian poet", does not denote ethnicity.

Despite having Armenia in the text -- which is common to have such an ancient and exotic name to be featured in texts of regional authors -- Shirin just travelled (i.e, not lived!) there, as Armenia was a geographic concept to begin with as there was no independent country either in Nizami's time or in Khosrov time for that matter. And Armenia is mentioned along with bunch of other geographic zones. Here are some relevant verses (from “Shapur’s story about Shirin”) (quick translation into English mine, the first verses are about Mihin-Banu, Shirin’s aunt):

“There, beyond the chain of mountains, where the entire expanse is beautiful, where joyful Derbent, and sea, and gulf, There is a woman. She has the shine of a royal high office/cloth/dignity. Boiling of her army reached Isfahan. Till Armenia the mighty land/country of Arran belongs (is obedient) to her. My ruler, know this: many regions send her tributes like a lamb/cap in hand. In the world there are probably no happier creatures (people). Countless castles she has in the mountains. How large is her treasury – only Allah knows. <…> For any month … she has countless havens. In the days of rose Madam will travel to Mughan [south-eastern region of Azerbaijan]… to enjoy the tribute of the springtime. In the mountains of Armenia she roams/roves in the summer [!!! That’s it!] …. And when autumn will come – and there, she does a raid on the game in Abkhazia [that’s northern Georgia!] In the winter she is in Barda [that’s back to North Azerbaijan, Arran]. Defiant (scorning) times of year, she lives, forgetting, what is foul weather. There [in Barda] she breathes happier, where it is easier to breath for heart/chest … And there, in her castle, it its beautiful captivity, Her niece lives. You would have considered her a diva. <…> She is more beautiful than roses, She was called/named Sweetie, She is – Shirin…. She is said/reputed to be the heir to Mihin-Banu … And after all, Mihin-Banu, who governs/rules/possesses the whole country, has not one/multiple such treasuries”.

When describing Khosrov’s travel after Shirin, Nizami also has the following lines:

“Then – in Mughan [eastern region in Azerbaijan/Arran] he is; then his graceful figure showing wayfarer, he arrived to Baharzan. <….> Mihin-Banu stands up. Kissing the earth, She said: “Shah!” He replied: “I’m listening”. “My capital [!!!], my guest, decorate with your attendance/visit; Barda is so joyful in the winter! You should pack up there. In winter times you won’t get any warmer weather than there, There grass is juicy, there water is in excess”. Khosrov agreed. He said: “You go. I will follow you to that incredible territory/region”. <…> [What a] fine country! The sparkling wreath and ruler’s throne have been brought [to it]”.

From the chapter “Flight of Khosrov from Behram Chubine” in “Khosrov and Shirin”:

“In impassible (bad) roads he penetrated into Arran [western Azerbaijan, sometimes all of Azerbaijan, the name of the whole country], From there he traveled to Mughan [south-eastern region of Azerbaijan (Arran)]: in Mughan did Shirin live [!!!].”

Here’s about both Mihin-Banu and Shirin being descendants of Afrasiyab, in the chapter “Lecture/admonition of Mihin-Banu to Shirin”, where Mihin-Banu speaks to Shirin:

“He [Khosrov] – is the month, you – are the moon, and our heritage/roots are just as famous/celebrated. Yes, we – are [from] Afrasiyab, if he is equal to Jamshid”.

Here’s an interesting passage from the poem, from the chapter “Khosrov leaves/abandons Shirin and goes to Rum [Byzantum]. Wedding of Khosrov with Maryam [the Christian daughter of the Christian king of Byzantum]”:

“In Constantinople to the Kaiser/Caesar [ruler] he [Khosrov] has appeared. Also has become thoughtful then the lord of Rum, And his important head the thought has furrowed. Lucky he has considered for the house Arrival of Khosrov in Rum; and he has embraced him. Having learned, that in numbers of stars there is love/attachment, instead of the insidiousness, To the arrived he has decided to hand over his empire. And to give - though he erected the temple of Christianity - To Parviz [Khosrov] as a wife his daughter – princess Maryam”.

What is the importance of this verse? That is, Nizami emphasizes and indeed stressed an important fact that Maryam was Christian, as was the Rum/Byzantum Empire – something he NEVER did for Mihin-Banu and her kingdom and/or Shirin, her niece and future ruler of the Arran kingdom.

Also, note that Nizami always spells all the names in the Muslim manner appropriate for poetry of his time – i.e., Maryam instead of Maria, Isa instead of Jesus, Ibrahim instead of Abraham, Iskender instead of Alexander, Afrasiyab instead of other variations, etc.

Anyways, I think if we just read the relevant passages (Ali also included I think two verses about Armenia) we can see that she could not have been Christian, much less Armenian, and that her capital was in Barda, perhaps the second most favorite city of Nizami after Ganja - he had it as capital of Nushaba in Iskender-nameh too. --AdilBaguirov 19:03, 19 June 2006 (UTC)



Thanks to everyone for their comments. Looks like ensha' allah we are near an agreement. I even propose that after an agreement is reached, we take out the harsh words and long comments from the talk page, if time permits. I archived all previous talks, so that page is within a friendly atmosphere.

I agree with mentioning the Atabak state of Azerbaijan and the relavent Iranica link can be given.

As per heriated shared by Azerbaijan and Iran, we can say Nizami Ganjavi's heritage is shared by: Azerbaijan and Persian speaking lands Iran, Afghanistan and Tajikistan. This effectively takes care of the confusion. It doesn't bother me if Azerbaijan is mentioned first either since we are saying the heritage is shared. Of course if I was going to be very picky I would say shared equally, but I think that is fine.

Looks like though there is two things Adil disagrees with, and here is my proposal:

1) For the Qom theory actually Nezami mentions "Tafresh" and "Taa" and these are two well known areas of Qom in modern Iran in central Iran near Qom.

cho dorr gar cheh dar bahr-e ganjeh gomam valee az ghohestan-e shahr-e ghomam beh tafresh dehee hast taa naam-e oo Nezamee az aanjaa shodeh naam-joo


But as I said, we don't need to mention that since some scholars agree and some don't. So we don't to have a dispute over this and we'll just mention the fathers names. On Nezami Ganjavi, the Ganjavi part is common and I think even Jami mentions it and Brtiannica does. So we'll leave it as Ganjavi as it is common in the West already.


2) On Shirin which is the more important dispute than it first looked like

For example the Afrasiyaab verse is about Khaykhusraw and not Jamshid and I already discussed it, and she doesn't consider herself a descendant of afrasiyaab, she justs said if he is like KeykhUsraw(son of afarsiyaab) then we are like Afrasiyaab (the father of Khusraw in the Shahnameh)... Jamshid would not make sense in this context from a mythology point of view. Or Armenia is mentioned 12+ times in the story and Barda' being a summer capital does not negate her armenianess. Almond means simply eyes in Persian literature..

Despite this no where does Nizami directly refer to Shirin's ethnicity, her being considered an Armenian by most scholars has to do with the fact that many other poets have mentioned it (even Alisher Navaoi). The fact of the matter is that if we are going to by Nizami, then many of the characters have become very mythical, geographical areas have become blurred (Nizami was not a geography major). That is why one looks at all of Persian poetry. Then there is Christian part, although see the Cambridge history of Iran and other sources where Shirin is actually mentined as a real character and a Christian in Khusraw's court.

But here is my proposal, since I don't think it is necessary to go back and forth on this issue and opinions were given multiple times without any results.

I hope Adil and others that disagree can be satisfied by the following proposal:

We each reference just one source about this matter. Adil can reference the source that she is mentioned as an Arranian(Caucasian Albanian) and I will mention a source the she is mentioned as Armenian (mainly the Encyclopedia Iranica article) and then we will leave it at that. We can leave the Christian and religious part out for scholars as well, although both Caucasian Albanian or Armenian at that time (end of Sassanid era) were Christians and some were Zoroastrians.

I think this would be sufficient to solve this matter. --Ali doostzadeh 21:49, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough, this is indeed very constructive and academic approach. And I agree about cleaning up the archives of emotional word usage. We should have a toast to that Ali! :-) All the best, --AdilBaguirov 00:49, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Excellent

All right guys, thanks to everyone specially Adil for the debates and discussions. Although I don't drink but heck it is good to get this long discussion over with and a toast of OJ is good. :) I have requested unlock for this article and I will put in the minor details we agreed upon as soon as it is unlocked. In due time, I will also clean some of the hard tones from the archives and it is excellent that we all can be proud about Nezami Ganjavi and share in his lofty heritage. --Ali doostzadeh 02:29, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Well done, Ali, I would like to thank you and Adil for the constructive approach, which allowed us to resolve this lengthy dispute. Grandmaster 04:58, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Synopsis of epics -- either too brief or too wordy

Guys, right now I think our priority should be reconicle the info about each of the 5 epics -- as well as mention the Divan of Nizami a little more prominently. The problem I see is that there is an overkill of info about Khosrov and Shirin (too much for an encyclopedia), a lot about Haft Paykar, and almost nothing about other epics, not to mention the Divan (which is mentioned only as "he left a small corpus of lyric poetry", not mentioning the title for such works, Divan, and that they are up to 2,000 beyts from their original size of 20,000). Then, why is there original Persian for one epic but not for the others? Also, why use clearly outdated Wilson's translations when there is Meisami's, and otherwise more modern or poetic translations for others? We are supposed to give a sneak peak of those stories, not try to pack the whole story into a one page. :-) We should not give more than 4-8 lines I think for each epic. Also, we mention Gholam H. Darab as a translator separately for the first epic, but no one for the others - why? Finally, we should mention whom was each epic dedicated to -- that's very important as well. Also, we do not mention anything about his knowledge of languages and in general education. To avoid any problems, we can simply quote those two relevant passages about Pahlavi, Jewish, Arabic, Tabari, Bukhari, etc. It would be good to otherwise include more non-contentious info into the article, such as tezkire's and imitations by other poets, such as Amir Khosrov Dehlevi and Alisher Navoi. Perhaps even some cool quotes about Nizami by famous poets and scholars, attesting to his grandeur. --AdilBaguirov 12:47, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Those are good suggestion.. I have shortened the story of Khusraw and Shirin.. since it is best for users to read it. Soon, I will start a brief but comprehensive section on Nizami's influence on Arabic, Persian, Turkish and Urdu literature. Probably one or two line on each. Also I have put the rulers mentioned. It would be too long to put verses from each poem and so I chose the two best works Khusraw o Shirin and Haft Paykar. See this for example: [4]. Also some praises for Nezami from other classical poets like Jami and Alisher Navai and others will be available soon. I have put the available English translations as well. --Ali doostzadeh 18:42, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
I think Nizami poems each deserve a separate article, and here we just need to give a brief description of them with links to more detailed articles. Just a thought for future. Grandmaster 18:47, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
That is a good point, although writing a long article on each of Nezami's 5 jewls is not easy and might actually do injustice in my opinion. One really has to go through the various stories to appreciate it and a few boring lines will kill the story. I had added some of the most recent translations to the article and hopefully after reading the article, the readers will buy some of the translations from the amazon links.. --Ali doostzadeh 19:16, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
I also think that writting seperate articles foe each of his works is a good idea. These articles should also have a short summary of Nezami. 69.196.164.190
Thanks for carrying out most of the edits Ali, it looks better. But still too wordy I think -- there is too much of verses for some poems, and yet very little about Nizami himself, his abilities, education, etc. For example, there is nothing about Nizami's uncle (from father's side) haji Omar Hasan, who must have played an important role in the upbringing of the young orphan Ilyas. Also, the fact that mother was from the Shaddadi's. while there is no direct evidence, Nizami must have known Afzaladdin Khagani Shirvani and Mehseti Ganjavi. Indeed, when his grave was opened, along with his skeleton, the remains of a woman were found. Academician Hamid Arasly, one of earliest Soviet-Azerbaijani literary experts, dismissed the possibility of those remains being one of his wives, and gave more credibility to the possibility of it being Mehseti Ganjavi (he did this citing folk stories of Ganja's elders). Although it of course could have been Afak/Appaq.

Also, we might want to explain that "Nizami" was a tahallus of the poet and what it meant, in what language, why. It would be become very relevant once we reach the section about his legacy, since the current wording "Nezami was influenced greatly by Ferdowsi, Sanai, Asad Gorgani Asadi Tusi and other great poets before him" (it doesn't mention Rudaki) leaves an ambiguous feeling about him (and I realize that it is hard to succinctly express this point). What I mean is that Nizami knew, respected, perhaps adored all these poets, but clearly viewed himself as the best, with even direct parallels (some of which I've cited in our archives discussion, such as "What the Kings Book had half-said, I said fully: what jewel he had half-pierced I pierced wholly.") about his pearl (a poetic reference) being better than theirs. Hence, he was not "influenced" as in "being in their shaddow", but rather was, just like Aristotle, as great as his teacher Plato. Also, he clearly understood that the time of massive epics Shahname-style about the constant wars of kings and rulers is over, and it is time to come up with new style. It should be noted that in Russian-language scholarship he is considered as a Sufi poet and bringining Rennaissance to the poetry, centuries before European poets such as Thomas Mora or Campanella.

This is why such great German poets as Goethe considered Nizami as one of the 7 greatest poets ever, in the whole world [5] and Henry Heine said "Germany has its own great poets...But who are they in comparison to Nizami" [6]. There is a good quote from Vahid Dastgirdi that "...the poem of Fahraddin Gurgani is weaker and resembles a candle put in front of the Sun" (he compares Vis and Ramin to Khosrov and Shirin). There are some very good quotes from Hafiz, Rumi and Saadi. One of the best is by Amir Khosrow Dehlevi himself: "The ruler of the kindom of words, famed hero, Scholar and poet, his goblet [glass] toasts. In it - pure wine, it's drunkingly sweet, Yet in goblet [glass] beside us - only muddy setting."

BTW, there is nothing about who ordered the Iskandar-nameh in the text. And M.Shaginyan writes that there are more tezkire from Turkic poets to Nizami than from ethnic Persian poets. --AdilBaguirov 16:30, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the comment Adil. About Iskandarnameh, it is not known who it is dedicated to, although there are some guesses, but most scholars are not sure. About references and biographies to nizami, I would guess there is much more Persian books since from classical period there is much more Persian works than Turkish from the classical period. There are dozens of Tazzakura's that refer to Nizami greatly in Persian. Also Sai'd Nafisi lists about 75 classical period Persian poets who tried to imitate Nizami's style. That he was influenced by Sanai and Ferdowsi is well known of course. This does not make him less than any of these poets and indeed Sa'id Nafisi considers Ferdowsi, Nizami, Naser Khusraw, Hafez, Sa'adi, Ommar Khayyar and Attar as the greatest and it is hard to compare different poets due to their different styles. Actually in that verse about Ferdowsi, Nizami mentions that Ferdowsi did not develop the full story of Haft Paykar. Had ferdowsi spent a long time on each story, then his shahnameh would never have been completed. The reason is that Shahnameh basically contains about 50 stories and Nizami developed three of the famous ones: eskandarnamah, haft paykar and Khusraw o shirin. I would say Ferdowsi was Nizami's greatest (of course others have said that) influence and the reason is that he even advises the son of Shirvanshah and his son to read shahnameh plus Nizami references him more than any author and three themes of his stories are from the Shahnameh although with more details. For example Hafez was influenced greatly by Sa'adi, Nizami, Ferdowsi. Virtually none of the classical poets developed on their own and they were influenced greatly by previous poets. Simply said, without Rudaki there would be no Ferdowsi and without Ferdowsi Nizami would not be the same either and without Nizami there would be no Dehlavi or Jami. About Goethe, if you have any quotes in English let me know. Besides Nizami, Goethe himself is a major figure and considered Hafez to be the greatest poet of any language and he knew Eastern literature and the Qur'an well. So that would definitely be great. Nizami does make a reference to Khaghani in his work and how he passed away. I am not sure if this detail is necessary. I have added the quote from Amir Khosrow Dehlavi. About his mother being Shaddadi, I do not see any reference to that in Nizam's work or any classical authors. About his uncle and education, that is a good point and I added a section for education. Nizami makes an interesting comment that he is nothing but his works that is why inserting about his work, is actually describing Nizami himself. I also added Khwajah Umar as his uncle name , which he directly refers to as Khawajah Umar and did not find Haji Umar Hassan in any verse. He mentions Khwajah Umar after mentioning his Father and then his Mother in Layla o Majnoon. If you see Haji Umar Hassan somewhere else, let me know. About the grave I have heared that story. Many graves related to great figures are sometimes attributed as well. --Ali doostzadeh 02:10, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Of course, I am not denying any influences as I made clear -- and realize that Firdowsi had been the biggest such influence. However, the term "influence" might be misunderstood and otherwise could potentially detract from Nizami's greatness. As you noted, their style is very different. I listed both names for the uncle just in case, since I've seen them both before, but Omar/Umar is correct, I don't know where did those sources get the Hasan from. Meanwhile, Haji and Khwajah is the same title, just Hoja is used in Turkic and Arabic languages, whilst Khwajah in Persian. Both should be used to avoid confusion and facilitate search. Unfortunately, I do not have the relevant Goethe book, thus have to go with my own Russian translation. In any case it is orignally written in German. We can mention that Goethe was a big fan of Nizami and knew well of his works, that is easy to research in english. Perhaps at some later date any of us will be able to add relevant quotes. On his mother being Shaddadi, it is written in some Russian-language books (I recall perhaps only 2) and in Paul Smith. The latter also lists the name of Nizami's second wife, which surprized me as I didn't think the names of his two later wives were preserved. Where did Nizami mention Khagani, I do not recall it? I wonder howcome there was no reverse - i.e, Khagani mentioning Nizami? In all books I've read they do maintain they knew of each other, etc., but I've never seen any direct quote from any of the two great poets about each other. --AdilBaguirov 19:33, 12 July 2006 (UTC)


Thanks. Actually Khwajah and Haji are two different roots. Khwajah is Persian word meaning master, master of the house.. and is a respectful title. It has entered ottoman Turkish as Hoja but in in Iranian Azerbaijani, Hoja probably does not exist since the Kh sound exists. The reason anatolian Turkish does not have kh unlike many other Turkic dialects is due to Greek influence. The same holds true with the Arabic Qaf (almost like Q) where the Greek language did not have it and so they produce it as k. Also Haji as you well know is someone that makes the pilgrimage and is not related to Hoja. About Paul Smith, I only see that he translated from English to English so I do not see any support for Shaddadid. I do not think he is a Nizami scholar or has even a doctorate in that field. Virtually I haven't seen any serious scholar of Nezami mention this Shaddadid origin and did not find support for it in the actual works of Nezami nore in any of the old biographers. Same with the name of the 2nd wife which has never been found. Even on the name of his first wife, some scholars just think Afagh (horizon) was an adjective, but it was left there since a good amount of scholars believe so. On Khaghani and Nezami knowing each other there is a very famous verse from Nezami about Khaghani's death: همی گفتم که خاقانی دریغاگوی من باشد دریغا من شدم آخر دریغا گوی خاقانی

my translation: I always said that may Khaghani appear at my funeral mourning What a mourning and pity it has become for me now that I am mourner at Khaghani's funeral.

I think I can find the Goethe quote from Said Nafisi , or other source and will check tommorow. I think it is important to have the Goethe quote and it is a great suggestion. About greatly influenced let me know any suggestions. I think the case definitely holds for Ferdowsi mainly since Nezami mentions Ferdowsi and his book directly at least 5 times off the top of my head and is mentioned in three of Nezami's book as well Nezami advising his son and Shirvanshah's son to read the Shahnameh. Three of the five jewels are themes picked out from Ferdowsi. There is even couplets that are from the Shahnameh, with a only one or two words that are different or couplets that convey the exact thoughts using pretty much the same words. But for example it does not hold as much for someone like Rudaki and it is just influence there. --Ali doostzadeh 21:20, 12 July 2006 (UTC)


okay one of the Goethe quotes was inserted. --Ali doostzadeh 01:57, 14 July 2006 (UTC)


Please add his poam همه عالم تن است و ایران دل نیست گوینده زین قیاس خجل "Iran is The Heart and all the universe The Body, Of this claim, the poet feels no regret or humility."

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