Talk:Newburg, Dutchess and Connecticut Railroad
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The City of Beacon did not exist until 1913 when Matteawan and Fishkill Landing were merged. The Hudson River terminal of the ND&C RR was at Dutchess Junction about 2 miles south of Fishkill Landing. Their ferry dock, roundhouse, engine and car shops and other railroad buildings were at Dutchess Junction. When the CNE took over in 1905 they began to dismantle the ND&C facilities. The repair shops were sold for salvage in 1907 but local train service continued under the CNE until 1916. The CNE was absorbed into the New Haven RR in 1927.
The D&C RR became part of the New York Boston and Northern in late 1872 but the name became New York Boston and Montreal in early 1873. The Clove Branch and the D&C were to become part of a main line from New York City to Montreal Canada to compete with the New York Central Hudson Line. Later in 1873 the NYB&M went bankrupt and the line was never completed. The lines reverted the Clove Branch and the D&C which declared bankruptcy in 1874. The ND&C was formed out of the old D&C in 1877. The ND&C was purchased by New Haven RR money in 1905 and the CNE was given the job of running it.
The correct spelling for the City of Newburgh is with a letter h on the end.
Bernard Rudberg Author of "Twenty Five Years on the ND&C"
- Thanks for the input. [1] (northwest) and [2] (southwest) are my sources for this area. I see that in 1892 Beacon was Matteawan, but the 1902 map shows Beacon. Additionally, by 1892, the line to the major docks at Matteawan/Beacon existed, and Dutchess Junction looks like just a junction - I can't see how there could have been docks there.
- As for the spelling of Newburg(h), are you sure that's not the same issue as with Pittsburg(h), which had no H from 1891 to 1911?
- With the line to Montreal, that's covered in more detail at New York, Boston and Northern Railway. Though maybe this article could use another sentence or two on it. --SPUI (talk) 05:02, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
- By the way, I've seen mention of a graded but never-used alignment of the NYB&N, but a detailed look at topo maps of the area reveals nothing - do you know anything about this? --SPUI (talk) 05:03, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
(from Talk:Central New England Railway) "The western terminal of the ND&C RR was at Dutchess Junction on the Hudson River south of Fishkill Landing. The tracks from Hopewell Junction to the Hudson River are still active and owned by Metro North RR"
- Neither [3] nor the aerial photo shows evidence of the line to Dutchess Junction existing. What is shown is the line to Beacon, with an apparent track connection about halfway to the old docks. --SPUI (talk) 05:08, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
Take a look at a current Rand McNally map of New York State. You will find a letter h on the end of Newburgh. I have an 1891 map which also has the h on the end.
A friend of mine and I are in the process of writing a book about the NYB&M that was never completed. By the way, the name New York Boston & Northern lasted only about 3 months from November 1872 till January 1873 when it became New York Boston & Montreal. We have hiked most of the old roadbed and there is ample evidence in bridge abutments etc. The line failed in 1873 so the woods have taken over in most places. This story is outlined in my book "Twenty Five Years on the ND&C" which includes a chapter on the Clove Branch and NYB&M. It is still in print if you want to read it. I ran across quite a bit of erroneous information floating around when I researched that book. My book about the ND&C is based on the original hand written record books which are now at the Beacon Historical Society. When the old headquarters building was renovated, the workers found the books in the loft. There are 48 volumes of the 11 X 17 ledger books with 700 pages in each volume for a total of over 30,000 pages of original ND&C records. The oldest is dated 1879 and the newest is 1904. I have read every page.
As for the terminal of the ND&C, it was definitely at Dutchess Junction 2 miles south of Fishkill Landing. It was active until 1916 on the CNE schedules. The City of Beacon did not exist at the same time as the ND&C RR. The ND&C became part of the CNE Rwy 8 years before the City of Beacon was created. There is a Mountain nearby called Mt Beacon and some people began using the term Beacon very early back as far as the revolutionary war but it was not an official city until 1913, well after the ND&C was gone. Actually, the first mayor was an ex ND&C conductor named Frost.
The current rail line to the Beacon waterfront that used to be the CNE connection to Fishkill Landing was built by the NY&NE RR in 1881. The line to Dutchess Junction and the D&C/ND&C dock dates to 1869 and it was torn out sometime after 1916. The Dutchess Junction ferry was in full operation years before the Fishkill Landing yard was built with fill over part of the Hudson River mud flats. The steam boat "Fanny Garner" served Dutchess Junction and Newburgh for many years. Most of the freight traffic across the river was Pennsylvania coal in train cars on the decks of barges with rails on them. This train car traffic at Dutchess Junction and later at Fishkill Landing became obsolete when the big bridge in Poughkeepsie opened in December 1888. By 1904 the Fishkill Landing freight ferry was abandoned by the New Haven RR. There was still a passenger shelter at Dutchess Junction on the NYC as late as 1950. I can send you a photo of it if you like.
The dates for the Clove Branch are not correct. The Clove Branch hauled iron ore out of Sylvan Lake starting in 1869. It was supposed to be a part of the NYB&M which failed in 1873. It continued to haul iron ore and was extended out to Clove Valley along the old NYB&M roadbed in 1877. The Clove Branch was abandoned and torn out in 1898.
Any time you are interested, just give me a yell and I will show you what is left of Dutchess Junction and the NYB&M.
Bernie Rudberg
- I stand corrected - I see the pilings from what was probably the old dock on [4]. However, I still can't find the NYB&M grading - can you give me a pointer for where that might be, like a nearby town or where it crosses a road?
- I've done some rewriting on this article. I'm a bit confused about the post-reorganization history though. Apparently the NY&NE leased it at first, as they built the line to the docks at Beacon. The NYNH&H leased the NY&NE in 1898, but you say the NYNH&H bought the ND&C in 1905, assigning it to the CNE (which it had acquired in 1904). Did the NY&NE lose the ND&C during its 1884-1895 bankruptcy? If so, was it operated independently until 1905? --SPUI (talk) 00:30, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
- I've corrected the Clove Branch - I don't understand how it would have tied into the NYB&M though. The NYB&M would have merged with the D&C near Hopewell, which puts it too far west for the Clove Branch east of Sylvan Lake to be useful. I had assumed the part west of there would have been used for the NYB&M, but you say the part to the east was graded for the NYB&M. Where would the NYB&M and D&C have merged? --SPUI (talk) 00:52, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
I just added a couple paragraphs and now they are gone. What gives ?
Bernie Rudberg
- Did you get an edit conflict message? The only contributions from you and your IP are on this talk page (and the CNE talk page); thus either you got an edit conflict or didn't hit save. Try going back and resubmitting (assuming your browser saved the text). --SPUI (talk) 01:08, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
A few maps ([5], [6]) show a branch running north-northwest from the ND&C south of Millbrook. Any idea what this was? And a map that shows the NYB&M! --SPUI (talk) 01:33, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
This is getting frustrating. It did it bagain after I retyped the text. Can we talk over normal E-Mail instead ? BRudberg@frontiernet.net
I will try again
Both the D&C and the Clove Branch were supposed to be part of the NYB&M. The original Clove Branch went only as far as Sylvan Lake iron ore mines. The NYB&M wanted to extend it eastward and also use the north end of the D&C to get to another link to Chatham in Columbia County. These little towns were destined to be stops on the main line to Montreal but it all ended in the financial panic of 1873.
The Clove Branch hauled iron ore out of Sylvan Lake through a connection with the D&C/ND&C at Clove Branch Junction. The eastern end of the Clove Branch was supposed to connect with a line coming north from Carmel. If you look at Terraserver maps and aerial photographs of Clove Valley you can see the old NYB&M route just east of route 55. It makes a sweeping curve south toward Whaley Lake. Beyond that it crosses I 84 near exit 17 and goes through Lake Carmel. Farther south it connects with the other railroads just north of route 6 in Carmel.
By the way, the pilings in the map you posted are the remains of a trestle built by the BH&E. They were trying to build a deep water port on Dennings Point when they went bankrupt in 1870. The trestle was never completed and the pilings are a hazard to boats to this day.
Now back to the NY&NE. When the NY&NE completed the old BH&E line from Connecticut into Hopewell Junction in 1881 they leased trackage rights from the ND&C. The rights ran from Hopewell Junction to Wicopee Junction just west of Matteawan. At that point the NY&NE built the rails down to Fishkill Landing which are still in place today. The other line down to Dutchess Junction continued until after 1916. it was still listed on the CNE schedules in 1916. After that it was torn out.
Those trackage rights were still active after the NY&NE became the NE RR and later part of the New Haven RR. During those years both railroads ran both freight and passenger trains in both directions on one set of single tracks. It was a traffic nightmare considering the only communications was telegraph and later telephone to control things. That situation lasted more than 20 years.
When the New Haven RR money bought up all the small lines, all they really wanted was the big Poughkeepsie bridge and the Maybrook Line. As soon as they had control they began to dismantle all the east-west lines except the Maybrook and the branch to Beacon from Hopewell Junction. By 1938 they had torn out the ND&C and sold the rails for scrap to Japan. You know what Japan did with all that steel just three years later at Pearl Harbor. That was Dutchess County's contribution to the war effort.
Bernie Rudberg
I have found out that it works if I type the page into Word Perfect and then do a cut and paste into Wikipedia. It is clumsy but at least it works.
Bernie Rudberg
By the way, the map references 5 and 6 above took me off into Maryland and some medical map. ? ?
Bernie Rudberg
- I tried looking some more for the grade without success, but I'll keep trying. All I see is the old BH&E, still in use.
- So did the ND&C remain independent until 1905?
- The Maryland and medical maps are correct - zoom in where the D&C would be. I cropped the one showing the NYB&M, highlighted it and uploaded it at Image:NYB&M.jpg. --SPUI (talk) 02:58, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
The connections at the northern part of the D&C were supposed to be links in the NYB&M but they were never completed. The Rutland in Vermont was also part of the NYB&M route to Montreal.
Yes, the ND&C survived on it's own terms until 1905 when it was bought out by New Haven money and given to the CNE Rwy to run. What saved them many times was the rental money for the NY&NE trackage rights. When the CNE took over they promptly disposed of the engine repair facilities and shops at Dutchess Junction. Everything, including the carpenter shops, brass foundry, paint shops etc etc all went to salvage by 1907. The only thing left active was the Dutchess Junction station. Even that was abandoned in 1916 when the last passenger train left Dutchess Junction for Matteawan. There was still a small passenger shelter there as late as 1950 along the New York Central tracks.
If I send you some GPS numbers maybe you can locate the map spots I am talking about. Do you speak GPS ?
Bernie Rudberg
- Do you have the lat/long (assuming that's not the same as the GPS numbers)? --SPUI (talk) 03:49, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
I am looking at the following location.
UTM 18 609454E 4609746N (WGS84/NAD83) USGS Verbank Quad
(NAD27) USGS Verbank Quad
41° 37' 54"N, 73° 41' 11"W (NAD27) USGS Verbank Quad
This is on a topozone map. That point is just about in the center of the curve going south to cross route 55 and pass by Whaley Lake very near the existing line. If you look at the elevation lines on the USGS map you can see small notches where the roadbed was cut near swamp road and going south alongside Beach Road. There is much more but that will be a start.
Aerial photos of this area show the curve in the background of fields and trees.
Bernie
Farther south, the roadbed crosses the Gardner Hollow Brook just south of the Prison Reservoir. At that point there are large stone abutments for a bridge that was never built.
Lat lon is 41° 36' 36"N, 73° 39' 50"W (NAD27) USGS Poughquag Quad or (NAD27) USGS Poughquag Quad
Bernie Rudberg
Still farther south the NYB&M diverged from the exiting line toward the west. It ran along the shore of Lake Dutchess at the following point.
(NAD27) USGS Poughquag Quad
41° 31' 08"N, 73° 40' 08"W (NAD27) USGS Poughquag Quad
After that it crossed I 84 east of exit 17 and went into Lake Carmel.
Bernie
Farther south in Carmel, just north of route US 6 you can see the embankment where it would have connected to the line marked CONRAIL.
41° 25' 11"N, 73° 40' 13"W (NAD27) USGS Lake Carmel Quad
USGS Lake Carmel Quad
It is getting late. It is 1:00 AM here. I think I will hit the sack. I will check with you again tomorrow.
Bernie Rudberg
- OK, I've started on a map at Image:P&D.jpg. Was the whole thing graded, or only portions? I was expecting this to be easier - I guess I'm used to higher-engineered lines like the Southern New England Railway, where it's really obvious on a topo map. --SPUI (talk) 07:37, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
Don't forget, the trees and brush have been growing over this line for 130 years and there has been a lot of farming and houses built in that time. If you give me an E-Mail address I can send you a marked up map from my files.
Bernie Rudberg
I sent 4 notes with attachments.
I have similar maps of other old rail lines in Dutchess County. ND&C, P&E, P&C, R&C etc.
(Bernie, can I get a copy of these maps? Email is nelson@crynwr.com . RussNelson 23:10, 16 February 2006 (UTC))
Bernie Rudberg
- Sorry for not getting back to you earlier. I think I'm going to give up on making the map, as I really can't find the grade in many areas. A question - do you know when the NYNH&H gained control of the Poughkeepsie and Eastern? --SPUI (talk) 01:56, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
Did you get the four pages I sent ? The route was marked in red on those maps.
The P&E became part of the CNE/NH organization in 1907. The NH money financed the deal and the CNE was given the job of running the P&E.
Bernie Rudberg
- Yeah, I got the maps - I just can't find large parts of the grading on topos or aerials. If I visit the area I may check it out though. If you ever visit eastern Massachusetts I recommend the Southern New England Railway, especially the three-level crossing. --SPUI (talk) 03:21, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
- As for the P&E, did the NYNH&H gain control prior to the 1907 merger? --SPUI (talk) 03:35, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
The P&E was in financial trouble from day one. It never really made any money. It went bankrupt and changed names several time. In 1884 it sold off parts the trackage to keep going. As far as I know it managed to stay independent until it was merged into the CNE in 1907.
Bernie
