Talk:New Order

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Contents 1 Indie? 2 Singles 3 Gillian 4 New Order tracks which include the title in the lyrics 5 Rob Gretton 5.1 Speaking of trivia... the "New Order" name 6 Blue Monday sleeve 7 Just one word 8 New Order Tours 9 Discography 10 Disambiguation 11 Yes We Do 12 neworderonline.com vs neworder.cc 13 Template 14 FAC number template 15 Media samples 16 KUDOS... 17 "Turn" at Articles for deletion 18 They also won an award for lifetime achievment in 2005 in the "Dance Music awards" 19 Murder 20 NPOV? 21 Frente 22 Serious NPOV problems

[edit] Indie?

new order as indie rock? it's well placed in new wave band list, but when you see the info... "New Order are an English indie rock band "

This is a bit more complex - they certainly started as an indie rock band with synths (arguably even "post-punk"?), and even though many of their recordings were club hits in remixed form, the albums as released retain a definite "rock" sound. Possibly "New Order are an English rock group who fuse indie rock with dance music"? Rayray 09:25, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I don't really think of them as indie. First, they already had a good following before the band had even formed. Second, I think their 80s albums have a definite rock sound in many places, but not indie rock. New Order is (or was in the 80s) a post-punk band that turned more and more new wave as time went on. Well, at least that's how I look at it. I would strongly endorse Rayray's statement if the word "indie" was replaced with "alternative". Folkor 19:32, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree but I wouldn't use the word, "alternative" because it sounds too general like "new wave" although "new wave" is more appropiate; use the term we use now, "synthpop". New Order is more in line with synthpop (at least their 80's hits are)than anything else. So I see them as a "punk-rock" band (joy division) who became a synthpop band and now has evolved to do some different styles. Check out Depeche Mode, Erasure, Pet Shop Boys, Orchestral Manoeuvres in the Dark and Alphaville to name a few and you'll see what I mean (Besides, to make my case, these bands are from same era and place: England and Germany). To put it in another way, The Cure did some synthpop sounding songs early on but they're not known as a synthpop band.

[edit] Singles

Do we really need a page for EVERY single? The three most notable ones - Blue Monday, True Faith and TPK already have non-stub articles that I started, although I didn't write most of the BM one. Adding stubs for them all is a bit OTT. Kiand 10:57, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

They're not so much stubs as they are short articles, as the point is to chronicle more the releases than the songs themselves. I think they're pieces of general interest (and consider that there is an article that lists songs by NO that don't have the title in the lyrics!), but then again, I'm the culprit in this case. ;) - hN

New Order singles (throughout the 80s, at least) were very interesting releases. Since almost all of them sold a ton of copies, and most featured non-album singles or at least very different versions of album tracks (with the exception of "Subculture", which was just given a mild remix). New Order's a pretty big band, and their 80s output is very influencial. I would argue strongly for the existence of individual single pages - that's how most bands' Wikipedia articles work. Well, most bands that have a big enough following to have big pages. I agree here with hN. Also - I would argue that "Bizarre Love Triangle" and "Temptation" are just as notable as "The Perfect Kiss" and "True Faith". Folkor 19:39, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Does anybody know why they re-recorded Confusion and Temptation for Substance 1987? I did hear the original Confusion recording on the 1989 Substance video collection, and from listening to it, would assume they re-recorded it because of Sumner's shockingly-poor vocals on it. Also, does anyone know where one might find the original recordings of these songs?

[edit] Gillian

Has Gillian really left the band? I know she has to take care of her ailing son, but she does get to work with the band, if not tour with them right?

She's officially out, Phil's officially in; she's not on the new album.

Now the core members of Joy Division decided to change the name of the band if one of them were to leave the group. Did they choose to ignore this promise when Gillian left New Order?

That was an agreement between them as Joy Division they obviously didnt make the same pact or whatever as New Order live at the witch trials 12:31, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure that she's officially out. She appeared with them in 2005 at an awards ceremony - some hall of fame awards, if I remember correctly. Can anyone remember the exact awards? She was also at the 2005 Q Awards. Her increasing public appearances (increasing by New Order standards, that is!) may suggest that she may make a return to the fold at some point in the future, no? Pure speculation though. By the way, I think her sick child is a girl, not a boy.

[edit] New Order tracks which include the title in the lyrics

What a banal piece of trivia. Is this really necessary? Edwardian 07:50, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)Edwardian

It was a seperate page, to offest the fact that a full New Order section on the list of songs without the title in the lyrics could have been close to a hundred entries long; someone merged it without discussing it first... Kiand 17:49, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It might have been an intersting bit of trivia when it was RARE for New Order to directly label a song after something in the lyrics, but not any longer. Would anyone mind if I remove it? Edwardian 21:49, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)Edwardian

Considering I spent an hour or two checking it, I'd kinda like it to stay in some form, but as most of Get Ready and WFTSC have the titles in the lyrics, it could get a bit unweildy... If you can see some way of mentioning it but removing the list, go ahead Kiand 21:56, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Maybe the tracks from the two latest albums should be left out of the list, and just a note saying that most of them are named after lyrics be put under it? --Zilog Jones 01:05, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I don't want anyone to feel as though he or she has wasted his or her time, but I'm still trying to understand why this list is deserving of inclusion in the article. Just because a list of something can be made, that doesn't mean it should be included. Why not a list of all New Order songs with BPM = 120? Edwardian 01:40, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Because this is one of the more distinctive features of New Order. I suggest moving it back to its own page. --Hn 02:43, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)

2nd that thought. The list distrupts the flow of the article. --Madchester 21:18, 2005 May 10 (UTC)

I think this deserves neither a full section in the article nor its own page. The trivia section is looking pretty skimpy - why not consolidate it into a short blurb there? --jiy 02:17, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Rob Gretton

Who gives a crap about trivia? How can this article go 3.5 years before its first mention of Rob Gretton? Edwardian 07:52, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Speaking of trivia... the "New Order" name

The article states:The late Rob Gretton, the band's manager for over 20 years, is credited for having found the name "New Order" in an article in The Guardian entitled "The People's New Order of Kampuchea". FYI: Johnsons' 1984 book says "the article spoke of the 'New Order of Kampuchean Liberation'", Flowers' 1995 book says Gretton got it from a passage in an essay about a "new order of architecture", and Middles' 1996 book says Gretton got it from "a television documentary about Pol Pot". Edwardian 07:30, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Blue Monday sleeve

"Blue Monday" is the best selling 12" single of all time, though because the packaging of the first pressing was so elaborate, resembling a large 5¼" floppy disk I think it was actually based on an even older format - eight inch or possibly eight and a half. Used to use them on a Honeywell Level 6 in the early eighties. BTLizard 12:14, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

The 1983 Blue Monday 12" is definately modelled on a 5.25" floppy disk.

[edit] Just one word

Hi, changed just one word. The article had "current personnel ...". I just thought this was way to military discourse. So I substituted 'personnel' for 'members'. Still a neutral word. Just not so harsh. Any objections then change it straight back Cheers. --203.220.120.188 14:39, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Given their tendency toward Nazi imagery, I think military discourse might not be altogether inappropriate. ;o)

[edit] New Order Tours

The article is lacking detailed information about tours. I know they did a Low Life tour and have the dates from a promotional postcard. Maybe someone who knows more about their touring should start a new section. - Shiftchange 12:02, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

They did a hell of a lot of touring. See NewOrderOnline concert list. Folkor 19:59, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm adding a qualifying statement - they did a hell of a lot of touring, prior to 1993. They haven't toured much since - few dates in 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002 and 2005 basically.--Kiand 20:11, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Discography

Quite large, could warrent its own page - New Order discography. Any objections? --SaltyWater 13:21, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

What's wrong with leaving it? It's hardly in the way and a discography is a fairly central part of any band page, large or not Me677 14:08, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Most other articles with large discographies are split onto other pages so the articles aren't too large. The Beatles, Madonna (entertainer), and the rest... --SaltyWater 14:42, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm in favor - lots of bigger bands have seperated the two. Folkor 19:06, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Disambiguation

If you search on New Order, then you immediately come to this page... I think it should go to the disambiguation page first, and then people can select the appropriate link. New Order has other, equally important references, including a big chunk of modern Indonesian history, and a slice of German (Nazi) history, and it's easy to miss the link to the disambiguation page at the top of this page. Let me know what you think, and if there is general agreement I'd be grateful if I could have some help in doing it. Thanks.

Well, Sepa, that doesn't sound like too bad of an idea. However, in my experience, I've never known anything else as big as the band that also held the same name. Obviously, my experience is limited, but for me, the band is what would come first. However, disambiguation is always helpful, and if enough other people would find it helpful, then I'd say go for it. Folkor 18:04, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

I have to say that with the general northern hemisphere and western hemisphere bias on here, as well as it going towards modernity, the band are probably receiving more inward links than the others combined. Additionally, both the Indonesian and German ones are translations into English and not the original names. I'd keep it as it is. --Kiand 18:07, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Yes We Do

In response to the person complaining about ot wanting to know EVERY New Order, every single written and performed by New Order is compeling and beautiful and needs to be told with detail.

So yes we do :D

Pmftroy 10:32, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] neworderonline.com vs neworder.cc

neworderonline is a fanrun website, but it is officially endorsed by the band and their record label. neworder.cc is just a little site made by the record company to promote the latest album. I'm very much in favour of neworderonline.com being classed as the "official" site in this article; both in the infobox and under external links. Afterall, which link is in the Waiting for the Sirens' Call artwork? Quite. Comments please. SaltyWater 21:37, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I think I'll have to abstain from this, I have neworderonline.com tshirts in my wardrobe :p --Kiand 21:50, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Template

There's a template doing the rounds: I've added it to the main article, the member pages and the studio album pages. Feel free to add to any other New Order related pages. Do so by typing {{New Order}} at the bottom of the article (after external links but before the category links). Also feel free to make any changes to the template, as long as they're not shit. SaltyWater 10:17, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] FAC number template

This actually goes under Factory Records, but i thought i 'd put it here also: I made a simple template for listing FAC numbers. I don't know how useful it is, but if anyone wants to use it, write {{FACnumber | FAC=foo}}, where foo is the full FAC number, like "FAC 123". It's a full-width template, so i suggest putting it near the bottom of the page. Improvements are welcome. Or, if it feels silly, remove it... // S4ndp4pper 20060603 17.16 UTC+1

Here's an example:

Factory Records Catalogue Number
FAC 73 Blue Monday (12", 1983 )
« 72	73 »

Interesting idea. Might be better if it was smaller, and floats on the right. It would always be useful to have a "previous" and "next" link and room for the title of the release/object. SaltyWater 16:20, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Cool! I have some comments, they are on the template's talk page.

[edit] Media samples

I know we're already a bit heavy on the auld media samples, but I think one of Regret wouldn't be out of place for this and its article. As their only song to top the US rock *and* dance charts, its a damn good example of the crossover that is in much of their work. Here To Stay is similarly suited (and indeed a personal favourite of mine), but Regret did better commercially. I'll cook one up if nobody else minds. --Kiand 19:19, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I've been hoping someone would add "Regret". WesleyDodds 04:43, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] KUDOS...

TO WHOEVER GOT THOSE ALBUM COVERS, ONE OF MY FAVORITE BANDS!

[edit] "Turn" at Articles for deletion

I'm nominating Turn (song) for deletion; see here. Absolutely nothing is happening, and there seems to be no possible commercial impetus left to release it now. –Unint 02:45, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

No, it should stay. The song appeared on 'singles' (as a new edit), and a video was released. Its a valid article. The only thing that should be changed is that it was not released. -negative1

You'll want to take that to the AfD page itself. Also have a look at the developing notability guidelines: Wikipedia:Notability (songs). Non-single song articles are generally held in low regard. (And AFAIK the video was never used for actual promotion.) –Unint 17:26, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] They also won an award for lifetime achievment in 2005 in the "Dance Music awards"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQOB8ujSSz0

Does anyone know where I can find a better place to cite from, I just found this randomly while looking at you tube.

[edit] Murder

A not too distant cousin of 'Ecstasy' from Power Corruption & Lies? I can honestly say that it sounds nothing like it in my opinion. Murder is a largely guitar/drums effort whilst Ecstasy in an all-out electronic dance track.

[edit] NPOV?

Some of the descriptions of the music seem to be outside NPOV.

[edit] Frente

If you're going to mention Orgy, you have to mention Frente as well. Andrewhime 08:32, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Serious NPOV problems

For example, "Brotherhood" also features the band at their most ably human and sensitive in 'All Day Long', a concise tale of child abuse of which Bernard Sumner can be rightly proud;

The sections on the albums shouldn't read like album reviews. Caleb462 19:17, 1 December 2006 (UTC)