Talk:Neocatechumenal Way

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[edit] Removal of Criticisms

The removal is necessary, in order to keep the information presented fair. There is first of all a juridical perspective: the personal opinions of the 11 bishops and 2 priests quoted, contrast, in matters not subject to personal judgment, with the constant, authoritative and final words of the Holy See, and therefore, generate confusion and misunderstanding.
Canon Law requires the Supreme Authority of the Church to define the Catholic character of any association. This websites as it was presented by so called Zagor, undermines the official Vatican position regarding the Neocatechumenal Way; it presents for 80% of its content, personal opinions and critiques, contrary to the official position of the Vatican (that is, I repeat, the only legal authority who has definitory powers), and ingenerate the false idea in the reader that the Neocatechumenal Way, could be a reality not approved, or dangerous or mistaken.
Furthermore, it is philosophically erroneous, in an encyclopedia, trying to define the essence of a reality so wide spread in the Catholic world, through the words of its detractors. If you want to define the Necocatechumenal Way, you must keep only its inward nature and true substance, rejecting what is accidental, phenomenal, illusory, and personal. If you want to spread critiques to the Neocatechumenal Way, you are free to do so, but not in a page that must contain its essential definition and only facts relevant to its substance.
You may want to review also the Undue weight rule WP:NPOV#Undue weight USeditor 05:07, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Please note that this is wikipedia. You think that the removel was necessary, and show your opinions about it.

The removal is necessary. This is not an opinion, since your presentation of the Neocatechumenal Way is biased, having “a prejudice in a general or specific sense, usually in the sense of having a predilection for one particular point of view or ideology (see Bias in NPOW)”. Unlike you, I quote the Popes, official spokespersons from the Holy See, and documents issued by the Vatican.

First, you shouldn't apply censorship on known sources. You Neocatechumenals should face the truth.

I beg to newly raise the issue of bias against the Neocatechumenal Way here. I do not understand your “you Neocatechumenals” wording, that appears to be dictated by a personal anger and preconceptions. I am a Christian faithful stating official documents of the Vatican and the Popes. You are the one that is discriminating against the Neocatechumenal Way. This cannot be accepted on Wikipedia, and must not be accepted between faithful of the Catholic Church. This discrimination, which appears from your statement, is equally present in all your presentation of the Neocatechumenal Way: I utterly reject it and will fight against it in any possible forum. However, I am very willing and happy to review the “truth” the “Neocatechumenals" “should face”.

The "geocities argument" is quite unfair. What's better: a citation of a document by only date and author, or a citation of a document by date, author and a link to the original text?

It is interesting that it is you who are mentioning the “fairness” issue…. However, we are not dealing in the field of "what's better", but of "what is true". In the Catholic Church, the validity of any statement does not depend on where the statement is found (i.e. internet, geocities, books, interviews, etc.) but on its author. As such, your comments about where the “citation is found” are immaterial, because the original text, may not originate from a such an authoritative source as another. However, the “geocities” websites issue, has not been raised by me. You could create hundred of websites with the same statements, but their validity would always be the same, because it depends on their author: I quote the Popes, the Vatican and the majority of priests and bishops: you quote two priests and 11 bishops.

The "official Vatican position" is contained in its documents, already cited in the article. No "approval" document exists; only a temporary (and incomplete) Statute has been approved by a Pontifical Council; no "Catechetical Directory" has been approved (neither published).

I beg to differ with your statement, that may be attributed to an incomplete knowledge of the issue. You affirm that there are no “approval documents"; this is a lie. I will fight against it in any possible forum. To read the official document of approval of the Neocatechumenal Way issued by the Holy See you may want to follow the link to: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/laity/documents/rc_pc_laity_doc_20020701_cammino-neocatecumenale_en.html

In this document anyone can clearly read that the Neocatechumenal Way has been approved by the Holy See. To furthermore confirm this fact, you may want to read, again, what John Paul II said to the Neocatechumenal Way on September 21, 2002: Our meeting today expresses your joy over the recent approval of the Statutes of the Neocatechumenal Way by the Holy See. I am glad that this process, which began more than five years ago, has been brought to completion through an intense effort of consultation, reflection and dialogue. I want now to mention in a special way Cardinal James Francis Stafford, to whom I express my gratitude for the commitment and care with which the Pontifical Council for the Laity accompanied the international leadership team of the Way in this process. I would like to emphasize the importance of the recently approved Statutes for the present and future life of the Neocatechumenal Way. Indeed, above all, this norm stresses once again the ecclesial character of the Neocatechumenal Way which, as I said a few years ago, is "an effective means of Catholic formation for society and for the present time" (Papal Letter Ogni qualvolta to Bishop Paul Joseph Cordes, Vice-President of the Pontifical Council for the Laity [today Archbishop and President of the Pontifical Council "Cor Unum"], 30 August 1990; ORE, 7/14 August 2002, p. 4). The Statutes of the Neocatechumenal Way also describe the essential aspects of this itinerary, offered to the faithful in their parish communities who want to revive their faith, and to adults who are preparing to receive the sacrament of Baptism. Above all, however, the Statutes establish the fundamental tasks of the various persons responsible for providing this itinerary of formation in the Neocatechumenal communities: the priests, the catechists, the families on mission and the teams responsible at every level. Thus the Statutes must be for the Neocatechumenal Way a "clear and sure rule of life" (Letter to Cardinal James F. Stafford, 5 April 2001, n. 2; ORE, 2 May 2001, p. 5), a fundamental point of reference so that this process of formation, that aims to bring the faithful to a mature faith, may be realized in a way that is in accord with the teaching and discipline of the Church. The approval of the Statutes marks the beginning of a new phase in the life of the Way. The Church now expects of you an even greater and more generous dedication to the new evangelization and to the service of the local Churches and parishes. Therefore, priests and catechists of the Way, you are responsible for ensuring that the Statutes are faithfully put into practice in all their aspects so that they become true leaven for a new missionary zeal. The Statutes are likewise an important help to all the Pastors of the Church, particularly the diocesan Bishops who are entrusted with the pastoral care and especially, the Christian initiation of the people in their diocese "In their fatherly and careful accompaniment of the Neocatechumenal communities" (Decree of the Pontifical Council for the Laity, 29 June 2002; ORE, 31 July 2002, p. 11), the diocesan Ordinaries will be able to find in the Statutes the basic principles for realizing the Neocatechumenal Way in fidelity to its original plan. You may find this information on the “Osservatore Romano – Weekly Edition N. 40 of October 2, 2002, page 5.

You also state that the approval is "ad experimentum”. In order to understand what this means in canonical language, and to understand the position the Holy See has taken on the “ad experimentum” issue, you may want to read what Cardinal Stafford (FYI back then president of the Pontifical Council for Laity) stated in the occasion of the approval of the Statute of the Neocatechumenal Way: Furthermore, the approval of the Statutes has been granted ad experimentum for five years. This commits the Pontifical Council for the Laity not only to fulfill carefully the mandate entrusted by the Supreme Pontiff, but also "to continue accompanying the Way in the future" (cf. John Paul II, Autograph Letter, op. cit., n. 3), and continue the dialogue with the initiators of the Way to discern and verify the application of the Statutes to the practice of the Way. http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/laity/documents/rc_pc_laity_doc_20020630_stafford-porto-san-giorgio_en.html

You statement is, therefore deeply biased, and cannot be used as a useful Wikipedia source.

There is also "Arinze's letter" reporting "decisions of the Holy Father".

You may know that the Neocatechumenal Way has welcomed these decisions and is following them (if necessary, I can provide the link).

You can't sustain your opinions by adding other opinions. You can't name "contrast" the difference betweeen encouragements and official documents. It's also unfair to "count" the cited pronouncements (11+2) as if they were the only existing in the world.

Are you accusing me of being unfair? I utterly reject this preposterous accusation! I am not talking about "encouragements”. I am trying to raise this wikipedia issue to a level that may conform to the standards dictated by intellectual decency, good sense and obedience to the Church! During 40 years of existence of the Neocatechumenal Way the Supreme Authority of the Church has always supported this experience – if you contest this fact, I can prove you the contrary – and only in extremely rare cases local bishops (i.e. Clifton in England) have closed their doors to this new reality. The fact that some Italian bishops (as quoted by you) have written letters or issued decrees to regulate the Neocatechumenal Way in their diocese, is within their canonical right and power, and as far as I know, the NC communities have always abided by their decisions.

Your method against criticisms could be used against the Way. No Bishop ever wrote "the Way does not contain heretical positions".

I am appalled by this accusation. You perhaps do not know that there is a Vatican congregation (Doctrine of the Faith) that is exactly in charge of defend those points of Christian doctrine and tradition which seem in danger because of new and unacceptable doctrines. For your information, this Congregation is now led by His eminence Cardinal William Joseph Levada, but before him it was led by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI). In all these years, Cardinal Ratzinger reviewed more than once the catechesis given in the Neocatechumenal Way (if necessary, I can provide the link….) and never issued any note, decree, or other document against it. It is the task of the local bishops to protect the integrity and unity of the faith to be believed. The definition of the faith however, is demanded to the Holy See. You are right in saying that “no Bishop ever wrote "the Way does not contain heretical positions", because it does not!

No approval document exists yet.

Please, do not make me repeat what I said before!!!

And your praising the Way should be considered "prejudicial" as well.

I am not praising the Neocatechumenal Way. Unlike you I am thoroughly objective in my presentation. I am stating the official documents of the Church, i.e. Pope Paul VI, Pope John Paul II, Benedict XVI and the Vatican Congregation. I am neutral - that is neither sympathetic nor in opposition to it, because I report the official position issued in public documents by the Holy See, and by the agencies controlling this new reality. You are trying to present with an undue weight, a peripheral, personal and minoritarian point of view, that has been by the highest authority of the Church rejected as false. You are trying to give it the appearance of a valid presentation of this reality when it is in clear contrast with the authority in the Church.

Please note that the article does not contain "anti-Catholic" sources (like lots of other Catholic-related articles in wikipedia).

How does this affect the argument I am trying to present? It would not give you any more credibility to add anti-catholic sources to your campaign against the Neocatechumenal Way.

Deletion of sources from a wikipedia article won't change the facts. Instead of deleting what you don't like, you shuld add some consistent document and wikify and explain terms.

What we are dealing with, is not a matter of deleting what you do not like. It’s a matter of being faithful to the Magisterium of the Church. I am bound to follow with Christian obedience those things which the sacred pastors, inasmuch as they represent Christ, declare as teachers of the faith or establish as rulers of the Church. The Popes have declared the validity of the Neocatechumenal Way clearly since many years, and the Holy See is constantly accompanying the Neocatechumenal Way in the future, to promote the New Evangelization. Any contrary statement being false, will be constantly challenged, and its presentation as a valid statement modified accordingly.

-- Zagor te nay 09:02, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

USeditor 18:43, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

NO! Date and author would not be enough, ISBN number would be requested as well (though ISBN is not required but looks good) and a page number, not only that, but it is extremely advisable to actually write where the information is taken from (ie. copy it word for word onto a reference section). And regarding a statue there is something that you must understand, When the Statues were Approved by JPII it was written that it was an experiment, meaning that those were the official statues and that no bishop or anyone else but the pope could change anything regarding the Way. In order for it to grow by it self without much interference, much like a science project regarding studying the effects of a Magnesium strip placed into Hydrochloric Acid. That is the meaning of the 5 experimental years. It is important to know how to read documents from the Vatican. And yes the vaticans opinion is present in ITS documents and the Vatican does not place them on Geocities.
Ncwfl 23:10, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
So your "anti-geocities war" means that a reader can verify a book printed in Italy more easily than a link? How does one understand that your hysteric statement means "correct method" instead of "defend at any cost Neocatechumenal Way" ? Did you already start wiping out geocities links from the 16560+ English wikipedia articles containing at least one? -- Zagor te nay 12:50, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't get your point. Does the fact that geocities.com is cited in 16560 / 1499693 = 1.1% of articles on Wikipedia make this source verifiable? Another question: how many of these 1.1% are featured articles? The definition of verifiable source is at Wikipedia:Verifiability. It states that no user homepage is a valid source for Wikipedia: "...self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources." Why would geocities not fall into this "largely not acceptable" group of sources? Regards. Ghalas 18:46, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] An Invitation

I agree with Ncwfl, USeditor, and Ghalas. You do not seem to be very open to any possibility that the Way is good or that it may not actually be heretical. Relying on the opinions of theologians and bishops alone does not plainly make the Neocatechumenal Way heretical...you are citing opinions. I have repeated this again and again but you do not seem to listen.

But again Zagor te nay, I will ask you a series of questions you have avoided answering...

Have you ever been to a catechesis?

Have you ever attended a Eucharist?

Have you ever attended a Word Celebration?

Have you ever attended a a Convivance?

Have you ever been to a Redemptoris Mater seminary?

Please answer. Because if you have been to these, then perhaps I might be able to discuss with you the criticisms. My own feeling seems to be that you have never gone to any of these events. User: Ladb2000

My personal experience is not a source for wikipedia.
But if it was, I could largely explain how many heretical statements there were in the catechesis I've been, how many liturgical abuses I saw in different Neocatechumenal Masses and Word Celebrations, how many times catechists and neocaths accused "misunderstandings" and "bias", and how dangerous are those low-quality seminar students going to and coming from R.M. seminaries. Maybe Italy and Austria are not interesting for you. In this article I only wrote what is publicly verifiable. -- Zagor te nay 12:50, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Lol, Zagor=0 NCW=1 Please procede this is bound to be interesting Ncwfl 15:18, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
D'oh... was it a typo? maybe you wanted to score Zagor:1, NCW:0. -- Zagor te nay 13:42, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Well actually it was meant as a joke to the wonderful response you gave to the Invitation, so you possibly couldn’t be awarded a point for such a simplistic response. Also the score is now (Zagor: 0, NCW: 2) simply because you have failed to give any response to USeditors response to the belief of the need of removing the information, also which I should add is a beautiful response and to find a superior argument to his it would have to come directly from god. Actually i'll give you a point for pitys sake (Zagor:1 NCW: 2).

[edit] the neocatechumenal way and the need of adult christian formation in the roman catholic church.

THE NEOCATECHUMENAL WAY

THE PEACE OF CHRIST AND THE LOVE OF GOD AND THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE HOLY SPIRIT BE WITH YOU!

The NEOCATECHUMENAL WAY IS A NECESSITY IN OUR CHURCH and it HAS brought MANY PEOPLE BACK to the church and i have seen many great things in the way and I can say that it has come DIRECTLY FROM GOD , FROM JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD: THE LORD HAS CALLED US TO LIVE A WAY OF CONVERSION , THROUGH WHICH WE ARE COMING TO DISCOVER THE IMMENSE RICHES OF OUR FAITH IN A POST-BAPTISMAL CATECHUMENATE. DURING THIS CATECHUMENATE , GRADUALLY, STAGE BY STAGE ,STEP BY STEP, WE ARE DESCENDING TO THE WATERS OF ETERNAL REGENERATION, SO THAT THE BAPTISM THE CHURCH HAS CONFERRED ON US IN THE PAST , MAY BY OUR ADHEREENCE TO IT , A SACRAMENT OF SALVATION , GOOD NEWS FOR ALL MEN.

I AM A DREADFULL SINNER AND MAY THE LORD HAVE MERCY ON ME ,AND HERE I MAKE MY POINT WE ARE ALL DREADFULL SINNERS AND NEED CONSTANT FORGIVENESS.


BUT NEVERTHELESS , NO MATTER WHAT RELIGION WE ARE OR WHAT SINS WE'VE COMMITED, THE LORD LOVES US ALL EQUALLY.

PEACE

[edit] Removal of Tags

I went ahead and removed the tags from the top of the page seeing as now the site quotes official documnets, if you wish to add them again the please leave a message giving a reason for doing so. Thanks,

Ncwfl 03:12, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal - New Definition of Neocatechumenal Way and Archiving of discussion.

  • I propose to present a new definition of the Neocatechumenal Way in place of the paragraph "Kiko Argüello and the Formation of the Neocatechumenal Way" that may follow its definition according to public authoritative documents and not personal opinions. The Pontifical Council for Laity in its decree of approval of the Statute, condensate very well the beginning of the Neocatechumenal Way with these words that I propose to use, substituting the first five paragraph of the present text:

The Neocatechumenal Way began in 1964 among the slum dwellers of Palomeras Altas, in Madrid, through the work of Mr Francisco (Kiko) Argüello and Miss Carmen Hernández, who, at the request of those same poor people among whom they were living, began to announce to them the Gospel of Jesus Christ. With the passage of time, this kerygma was made concrete in a catechetical synthesis, based on the tripod Word of God-Liturgy-Community, which seeks to lead people to fraternal communion and to a mature faith. This new catechetical experience, born in the wake of the renewal brought about by the Second Ecumenical Vatican Council, was received with lively interest by the then Archbishop of Madrid, his Excellence Mons. Casimiro Morcillo, who encouraged the initiators of the Way to spread it to the parishes which may request it. This experience of evangelization thus spread gradually throughout the archdiocese of Madrid and other Spanish dioceses. In 1968, the initiators of the Neocatechumenal Way came to Rome and went to live in the Borghetto Latino. With the permission of His Eminence Cardinal Angelo Dell’Aqua, the then Vicar General of His Holiness for the City of Rome and District, they began the first catechesis in the parish of Our Lady of the Blessed Sacrament and the Holy Canadian Martyrs. Since that date the Way has spread to dioceses throughout the world and even to mission countries. If you concur with this text, please let me know.

  • Also, I propose to archive the old discussions.

Thanks. USeditor 22:50, 28 November 2006 (UTC)


Works for me do as you wish! Ncwfl 05:12, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi. For me also ok. Ghalas 12:49, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I will proceed.USeditor 13:36, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal - New Definition of Nature and Mission of the Neocatechumenal Way.

I propose to change this paragraph as follows:

The Neocatechumenal Way is at the service of the bishops and pastors as an itinerary for the rediscovery of Baptism and an ongoing education in the faith, offered to the faithful who want to rediscover and relive in their lives the riches of Christian initiation by participating in this process of conversion and catechesis. As the Holy Father wrote, in this process an important help can be offered by "a post-baptismal catechesis in the form of the catechumenate by presenting again some elements from the "Rite of the Christian Initiation of Adults' with the purpose of allowing a person to grasp and live the immense and extraordinary richness and responsibility of the Baptism he has received" (Christifideles laici, n. 61).

The Neocatechumenal Way - whose itinerary is lived in parishes and in small communities made up of people of different ages and social conditions - has the ultimate goal of gradually bringing the faithful to intimacy with Jesus Christ, making them active subjects of the Church and credible witnesses of the Good News of our Saviour everywhere. The Neocatechumenal Way is also an instrument for the Christian initiation of adults who are preparing themselves to receive Baptism. USeditor 13:56, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Notes" on Vatican Document

It's hardly necessary to comment on such unfundamented ways the Vatican resolution issued by Cardinal Arinze. If you want to give some further considerations on the topic, do so based on actual reliable sources in a orderly fashion, not on some loose "notes" after the statements at hand.

The expressions of love and spiritual connection with the Way, although beautiful or interesting should not be present in a talk page whose sole purpose is debating the facts. Neither should the opposite feelings.

Based on this, and on prior discussion not yet resolved on this talk page (like the actual adulteration of terms in the letter), i'm putting the NPOV tag back on.

(Antonius Block 14:38, 2 December 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Neocatechumenal Propaganda

  • Description of the Way contains too much POV and seems a "Copy-and-Paste" from official Neocatechumenal slogans.
    • Interesting; according to the so called zagor_te_nay the documents issued by the Vatican (i.e. the Pontifical council for Laity) are "official neocatechumenal slogans". USeditor 05:54, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
  • "Literature" section contains an excessive amount of unimportant documents and books. As for other sections of this article, it seems a Copy-and-Paste of some Spanish-language listing.
    • It seems to me that in the presented list there are some books that are not so pertinent; however, I do not understand why if it would be allowed to quote the publication of the two Italian priests that expressed concerns against the Noecatechumenal Way, would not be allowed to present many Spanish priests who wrote favorably.... USeditor 05:54, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Added again the "critiques" sections and documents. Some people working on this article seem not to like the truth. Expect some censorship and rollback.

-- Zagor te nay 15:42, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

First of all before you claim Neocatechumenal Propaganda you should try and respond to the response by Useditor since you seem to not have any response to his superbly crafted response, in which he states official documents from the Vatican and you seem to come up empty in front of his response which has been posted over 10 days ago. The list of books may seem to be derived from a Spanish resource but they serve to prove a point, that the number of books which approve and support the Neocatechumenal Way are much greater in number than the ones that oppose it. Also I invite you to outline every point which you believe have POV in the current article and I will show you the parts in the documents you wish to insert which contain a much stronger and clear POV. And as useditor stated I am neutral - that is neither sympathetic nor in opposition to it, because I report the official position issued in public documents by the Holy See, and by the agencies controlling this new reality. You are trying to present with an undue weight, a peripheral, personal and minoritarian point of view, that has been by the highest authority of the Church rejected as false. You are trying to give it the appearance of a valid presentation of this reality when it is in clear contrast with the authority in the Church.. Now please go work on an adequate response to Useditors response to yours.
A small note I agree with the archiving of the Talk page to its current length making it much easier to read.
Continuing with our vocabulary list
Truth: conformity with fact or reality; verity. Ncwfl 19:13, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Neocatechumenal Liturgy and Vatican Letter

I removed the comments on the homily and "echoes". I believe that the letter should be inserted in a larger section of the article, on the subject of Neocatechumenal Liturgy, which is the main cause of controversy regarding it's practices, and where the definitions of "echoes" and such analogous terms could be given from the Neocatechumenal Way perspective, in order that the laity not connected to it could understand the subject at hand.

(Antonius Block 20:00, 5 December 2006 (UTC))


[edit] Neocatechumenal Way

We still need to do some more work on this article folks. And I think we need to expand it a little more.

Ladb2000

  • Is there anything you had in mind?
Ncwfl
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