Talk:Negation

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The internet smilies section doesn't really belong in an article about negation. While the smiley is created using a symbol for negation, it has nothing to do with the concept of negation, which is the topic of the article. 18.62.4.221 15:48, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Re move of page to logical negation

Earlier today QQ moved this page to logical inequality, with as far as I can tell no prior discussion. I've now moved the page back. This is the second time that QQ has moved this page there. The first time the page was moved back by Lowellian. In my view this is a highly inappropriate name for this page, since the article also talks about term negation as used in grammar. What might be a good thing would be to create separate pages for the "negation (grammar)" and "negation (logic)" or "logical negation" and make this a disambiguation page, however this would have to be discussed and agreed to here first.

Please no further moves of this page without discussion and agreement here.

Paul August ☎ 17:49, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Separating page is a good idea, but I don't think it is possible. The main reason is that people will revert back after doing this!!! In my opinion, if you think moving article EACH TIME requires discussion, you should talk to the committee of wikipedia. But I respect with your action, don't worry. QQ 18:00, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your "respect". As for making this into seperate articles, If it really is the right thing to do, I'm sure we could get a consensus for that. In that case reversion against consensus, would not stand. As i said on my talk page: ":... moving pages which are likely to be non-controversial, like simple misspellings etc. usually don't require any discussion. However for other moves ... it is always best to start a discussion on the talk page first." Paul August ☎ 18:24, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I'd support the split into "negation (grammar)" and "negation (logic)", making "Negation" a disambiguation page. That would make the other two links (album and comic) less obtrusive at the top. Eric Qel-Droma 13:25, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I would also support splitting the article into two separate pages on grammar and logic/mathematics; not sure that mathematical negation and logical negation require separate treatment. Smerdis of Tlön 13:45, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed split

JA: Oppose for now. First off, negation (grammar) does not make sense, as negation is a semantic topic, not a purely syntactic one. The classical distinction would make it negation (rhetoric), and that big an umbrella would give folks rheum to discuss just about anything that comes to mind. Maybe someday, maybe soon, but right now the article is not big enough to justify it, and mostly needs to be better organized internally, say with a subhead for "rhetorical considerations". Jon Awbrey 15:40, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Well it's not just a question of article size. I see it as more a question of utility, having separate articles would allow other articles to link with more specificity. Paul August ☎ 18:01, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

JA: Okay, I guess. How about something analogous to what we did for Tautology (logic) and Tautology (rhetoric)? But it still seems advisable to keep Negation for the primary logical meaning, instead of creating more havoc with Logical negation (already directed here), or Negation (logic) (a constant PITA to use as a link). Jon Awbrey 18:12, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

One other problem is that we really are not talking about separate subjects here. Grammatical negation clearly relates to logical negation; and various other sorts of negation, such as negation in mathematics or negation in computer programming, are likewise aspects of the same phenomenon: all involve the use of symbols to either flag statements as being contrary to fact, or what to do if something turns out to be not the case. Smerdis of Tlön 19:03, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

JA: Whole books have been written on Negation in wider rhetorical and philosophical senses that go far afield from logical negation. And consider: If pseudoscience is false science — is pseudopseudoscience then true science, or does it just get pseuder and pseuder with re*iteration? The mind toggles, the world does not. Jon Awbrey 19:24, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

JA: So where are we on this? I need to continue working on the "16 function" articles. I'll make a Negation (rhetoric), and maybe a Negation (metaphysics) article for all the Hegelians and No-Exitentialists to toy with. Jon Awbrey 04:05, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Too technical!

This article is all very well, but if someone (like my freshman calculus students, say) wants some help in understanding what negation is, this will leave them more confused. I just added a helpful sentence in the preamble, pointing out that negation is a perfectly natural thing to do and formalizes something we do in everyday language.

This also needs some examples. I'll add some if I have time. Ewjw 07:55, 18 October 2006 (UTC)