Talk:Near-death experience

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[edit] Bias

It seems that this was written by someone who thinks there is a definite connection to the afterlife. I like the mention of Howard Strom who was an agnostic but had a bad NDE and became more faithful.

  • This entire article is so unNPOV it's unbelievable. Reading through it, I can't even judge the validity of the sources (i.e. reputed scholar vs. crackpot). This article needs work.

138.251.164.3 11:52, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Linguistic details

In the first sentence, "...dead and then somehow revived" seems to imply that there's something odd or mysterious about this, rather than the common well-known occurrence of medical resuscitation. --Lee Daniel Crocker

It was intended to. Raymond Moody's books explore the possibility that there is more to reality than the material world. Some NDE's involve a being of light telling a person to go back to the world.Dr. Moody himself maintains a strict NPOV on the question of life after death, of course. Unlike me, who believe it.We could change somehow revived to came back to life if you want
"...were brought back to life" is better--it doesn't generally happen without intervention.
Okay, but many of the NDE's occurred without (physical) intervention. --Ed
Such near-death experiences, though, are just that--not actual "clinical death" as the first sentence implies. That has a very specific meaning, and is not generally reversed without some intervention (even if minimal). Most of the people who report NDE's are either (1) genuinely clinically dead, and know this because they are under the care of doctors who tell them about it after they are revived, or (2) are not under the care of doctors, and believe that they were dead for a time, but have no real evidence of that. I have no doubt that people in precarious medical condition report all kinds of experiences--the brain is a marvellous thing. --LDC
If doctors really can bring a dead person back to life it rather takes away the miraculous qualities of the ressurection, does it not?
"Near death" means "Near death" not "Dead". Exile
Furthermore - if you follow the link to clinical death you find this means an "irreversible" state of death. I was under the impression that NDE referred to people who, for example, had cessation of breathing and no pulse but were revived. If you were "irreversibly" dead you wouldn't be able to come back and tell us about it. If no-one responds to this I'm tempted to rewrite. Exile

[edit] NDE's are common

Added some stuff. NDE's are actually rather common.

For NPOV, we need to be sure that we emphasize that NDEs are a well-documented subjective phenomenon; on the other hand, the meaning of NDEs is still up for grabs. Even Jansen is careful to state that his work is addressed to the scientific paradigm. As he notes in [1] and [2]:

'I am no longer as opposed to spritual explanations of these phenomena as this article would appear to suggest. Over the past two years (it is quite some time since I wrote it) I have moved more towards the views put forward by John Lilly and Stan Grof. Namely, that drugs and psychological disciplines such as meditation and yoga may render certain 'states' more accessible. The complication then becomes in defining just what we mean by 'states' and where they are located, if indeed location is an appropriate term at all. ... My forthcoming book 'Ketamine' will consider mystical issues from quite a different perspective, and will give a much stronger voice to those who see drugs as just another door to a space, and not as actually producing that space'.
...
Despite its association with sensationalist media reports, populist books of doubtful scientific value, and a series of dubious Hollywood films, the NDE is still of considerable importance to medicine, neuroscience, neurology, psychiatry, psychology and, more controversially, philosophy and theology (Stevenson and Greyson, 1979; Greyson and Stevenson, 1980; Ring, 1980; Sabom, 1982; Jansen, 1989a,b, 1990b, 1995, 1996). Philosophical and theological issues are beyond the scope of the present discussion, which is based within the scientific paradigm and is thus best assessed from within this paradigm.
...
Spiritualists have sometimes seen scientific explanations of NDE's as dull and reductionist. However, the exploration of the mind-brain interface is one of the most exciting adventures which humans have ever undertaken. The real reductionism lies in attempts to draw a mystical shroud over the NDE, and to belittle the substantial evidence in favour of an scientific explanation.

Science for scietific questions, and religion for religious questions. Cheers - Chas zzz brown 00:16 Jan 24, 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Unexplainable Reports

"Children report seeing relatives who are living as part of the NDE, which begs explanation if the NDE is an experience of an afterlife."

In the paragraph that discusses "Unexplainable" reports in NDE accounts, the last sentence about children's NDE's doesn't really fit, since it isn't about unexplainable reports of worldly events/objects from an out-of-body perspective. Is there somewhere else in the article it should go, or is there a concept it is trying to convey that might need to go in a new paragraph? To me it seems to belong in the realm of interpretations of the NDE. Whether what somebody sees in the spiritual part of the NDE seems appropriate has nothing to do with the paragraph in question. Oh, and it occurs to me that children may blur the different realms and tend to report everything they saw as one realm. Perhaps the see their family living and dead from various realms. ??? Point being that the sentence really needs expansion and justification. Tom 19:01, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Hell NDEs

I was just curious if anyone knows anything, and can add to this article, about NDEs where people report going to Hell. I have read of only one case, in the early 20th century, where a former cowboy, who had killed many people in his days in the Old West, came back from a stroke-heart attack combo and had said he had been swallowed up and had went to Hell. Most reports talk about goiwing to Heaven, but Id be curious to read about going the other way. Husnock 8 Nov 2004

Let's see what we can do. Tom - Talk 20:17, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
There. How's that? (These things just do me in. I can't write them without plucking an undeniable recognizance somewhere inside me.) Tom - Talk 21:09, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
I have added a reference to Attwater's chapter in which he discusses Hellish near-death experiences. Cardamom
These kind of experiences have been discussed by researchers Greyson & Bush, see article bibliography. --Hawol 11:50, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
The author Lobsang Rampa talks about "hell" in his books: your NDE is exactly what you imagine. If you expect winged angels and pearly gates, that's what you get. If you expect black nothing or red devils with pitchforks, your imagination and NDE will matter-of-factly accomodate you.

CBS "48 Hours (TV series)" and Oprah Winfrey had several people on their tv shows who had a near-death experience that included visions of 'Hell', of being seperated from God, and seeing demon-like creatures.204.80.61.10 19:03, 17 October 2006 (UTC)Bennett Turk

[edit] Moving the section

Although interesting in itself I belive that the theme of Hell in NDE-experiences should be introduced later in the article. It would be better for the reader to get familiar with different viewpoints and research before being introduced to this very delicate issue. --Hawol 14:10, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Yes. Have at 'er. Thank you for caring enough to want to re-organize. I am quite sure nobody will contest your actions. I wasn't sure where to put it. Tom - Talk 17:36, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Major elements

The major elements section needs to be finished. It is obviously a stub since Hell is a minor major. I will think about how to expand the section. Tom Haws 19:51, Feb 7, 2005 (UTC)

Please give bibliographical references to any material that is contributed. It is much easier to do a source-critical reading that way. Hawol 15:28, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Out of body hypothesis - random messages

Can someone point out where to find more information on the experiments cited in which messages were placed in positions where people experiencing NDEs should have been able to see them? --68.15.144.115 15:08, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I don't at the moment. Perhaps you could find and add some? Tom Haws 16:57, Feb 14, 2005 (UTC)
Anyone else, please reply if you do have information on them. 68.15.144.115 07:18, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
We could e-mail PMH Atwater or Kevin Williams for help. Tom Haws 19:46, Feb 15, 2005 (UTC)


According to Fenwick (2004) this kind of experiment has been carried out by a researcher called Sartori (from Morriston hospital in the U.K.) who did it as a part of her Ph.D. thesis (not yet published). According to Fenwick none of the experiencers, who supposedly left their bodies, reported seeing the randomized cards that were placed in the room by the researcher. Fenwick and colleagues are however designing a new experiment with a different methodological angle in order to do more testing of the "out of body hypothesis".

Source:

Fenwick, Peter (2004) Science and Spirituality: A Challenge for the 21st Century. The Bruce Greyson Lecture from the International Association for Near-Death Studies 2004 Annual Conference. Also available at IANDS website --Hawol 11:37, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Life flashing

What about one's life "flashing before one's eyes" like one hears about on TV all the time? My mom says she experienced this.. Does this phenomenon belong in this article? Either way I can't find it in wikipedia.

Excellent point. Yes, it does. Can you add something? Tom Haws 16:47, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)

It was in the year 1970, I died and seen a blue light I was above my hospital bed and I seen my body laying there. The nurse aide that was by my bed had just told me that my blood pressure was 320 over 230 and I died. I saw the nurse aide and heard her scream that she could not get a blood pressure nor a heart beat then she ran out of the room. Meanwhile I heard and seen everything from the ceiling. I even heard the doctors telling her to calm down and then I thought that I didn't want the aide getting into trouble so I returned to my body. Since that happened I have dreams and they come true and when I say things to people it comes true. I once told a old boy friend of mine that he was gonna burn twice once here on earth and the rest in Hell and seven years later he fell in a bucket of hot steel at a mill called Sharon Steel in Pa. His name was Ernest Buchanan. I have regreted what I said and my father informed me to always be careful what I say because some people have special gifts expecially after a comeback from death regardless how brief the out of the body experience was.

[edit] Removal

I am removing a phrase from the "As an afterlife experience" "In a story commonly repeated as a parable,". I don't object to this phrase, but it is confusing and needs to be explained better if it is to be in the article. Tom Haws 19:08, Apr 23, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Problematic section - Major elements

I have given this edit a lot of thought, and I hope I do not offend anyone by doing it. I find the section on "Major elements" to be a bit problematic. It's autobiographical tone comes across as fictional and somewhat coloured by new-testament semantics. There is nothing wrong with New-Testament semantics and imagery as long as it is placed within a context where it belongs and where such a context is made explicit to the reader. But unsupported by critical commentary or bibliographical references, as is the case here, these stories - unfortunately - come across as something out of an evangelical pamphlet or a fictional book. If these autobiographical elements should continue to function as a separate section within the article, I belive that they should at least be informed by bibliographical references and critical commentaries from the field of Near-death Studies. The way it is now it is difficult to do a source-critical reading.

I do however appreciate the initiative from the contributor to include autobiographical elements (they are crucial for an increased understanding of the phenomenon), but I cannot support the current version of the section. I hope I have not offended anyone by removing the section (for now). I am - after all - humbled by new insights to this field of study. I do not rule out that I could support some future version of the disputed section. In such a case I suggest that it undergoes a major re-write, including an addition of bibliographical references, and a more academic commentary that can help new readers to orient themselves within this very delicate field of study. The welfare of the reader is important.

See also Wikipedia:Cite_your_sources --Hawol 16:19, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)


Thanks for your careful explanation. Somebody asked for an explanation of Hell in NDEs, so I added a bit, and it got substantially expanded and reworked. Would this version be less problematic? [3] Tom Haws 19:05, Apr 25, 2005 (UTC)


Thank you for your response! Well, it is less problematic but I still can not support the improved version. Since the theme is such a delicate issue as "Hell In NDE- experiences" I believe the version would benefit from critical commentaries from the field of Near-Death Studies (such as-> what has leading NDE-researchers said about this issue? Is it a well-known issue in NDE-research? What are the different opinions about this issue?). It would also help the reader a lot if a literary reference for the three autobiographical accounts could be given, or else they might be interpreted as legendary material (as a kind of urban myth) or as fictional. Finally, I believe that this kind of delicate issue (Hell in NDE's) should be introduced fairly late in the article. It would be beneficial to the reader to get familiar with the broad scope of the article and its subject matter before he is introduced to the issue of hell in NDE's. I hope these are constructive suggestions that clarify my position. I will look forward to any suggestions for improving the article. --Hawol 13:30, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)


Beyond the issues specific to the section you cut, there is the concern I have long had that the section was a lopsided addition. I didn't let it bother me too much. I assumed that eventually we would fill out the article in a more balanced way. I guess maybe I take a more easy-going approach to problems I see in articles. The article should eventually contain much more about the major elements of NDEs, with references from significant studies and accounts. If you want to add references and additional material, feel free. As far as the content that you removed goes, I hope you find a way to add it back in eventually in hopes that the article will continue to grow and improve. Tom Haws 14:10, Apr 26, 2005 (UTC)


Thank you for clearing that up. I see now that this section is more of a first draft for a larger section on major elements of NDE's. Such a section would of course be very relevant to the article, but as the section is now, introducing only one element (Hell), it looks very unbalanced, if not odd. I hope we will be able to put the material back in a more broad and comprehensive context. --Hawol 14:17, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)


Most definitely. Oh, to have a thousand lives! Tom Haws 15:44, Apr 26, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Problematic sentence

There have also been accounts of patients seeing things they apparently could not have seen had they not been out of their bodies.

I have removed this sentence until further notice. Since it is unsupported by a reference it has the tonality of a "hearsay". I believe it is best to leave it out until a proper reference can be given. I know this phenomenon was reported in the BBC documentary on NDE's (The Day I Died. 60 minutes, color, BBC 2002) so maybe it is possible to find it in the research of Parnia or van Lommel.

--Hawol 20:55, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Clinically dead for a day

"It is generally accepted that some people who reported NDEs were shown to be clinically dead, sometimes longer than a day. However, it is not shown that the experiences themselves took place in any time other than just before the clinical death, or in the process of being revived. In altered states of consciousness such as this and during dream states or under the influence of drugs, the subjective perception of time is often dilated."

The wiki article on clinical death "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_death" seems to suggest someone is clinical dead when revival is impossible based on our current medical knowledge. If this is the case, I fail to see how someone could be clinically dead for longer then a day then revived. Even if this definition is incorrect, I don't see any definition of clinical death that would allow someone to be revived after over a day...


It is not unheard of for people to be declared clinically dead and then come back to life. I know somebody who was declared dead multiple times as a baby. Coconuteire 23:23, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Karl Jansen

The discussion of Dr. Karl Jansen's work on ketamine (in the 'Naturalistic explanations' section) places him in the materialist-skeptic camp. This is highly misleading. True, he started out as a debunker of the notion that NDE's are evidence of a spiritual (or at least transnormal) realm. But with time he developed a more agnostic hypothesis - that ketamine may in fact be one particularly powerful trigger of authentic spiritual experiences - of which near-death may be another. In each case, according to Jansen, the subject gets catapulted out of ordinary egoic consciousness into an altered state. To claim that Jansen refuses any ontological significance to the 'worlds' disclosed in these 'trips' is unwarranted. Latterly he seems much closer to Jung, Ken Wilber, Stan Grof and Daniel Pinchbeck (who has written a book on hallucinogenic shamanism entitled 'Breaking Open The Head') than to Susan Blackmore or Nicholas Humphrey (two particularly high-profile skeptics). Can anyone weave this crucial point into the text?? - Dexter 12 Sep 05

[edit] Near Death Experiences

To whoever decided to write this huge section:

Dude, the list is waaay too long and contains unobjective stuff like info about a specfic religion. Also I'd suggest you make an account.

  • God exists. - deleted because implied by other stuff
  • God is omniscient and omnipresent, yet he restricts from having any influence on worldly matters - this is not and cannot be a conclusion. Also, it's just a repeat of what many scriptures say.
  • God manifests himself as immense brightness, which is not physical light nor cerebral sensation of light - this is not a "conclusion"
  • time is a property of matter - a gradient of entropy. Time can exist only in conditions where there are material particles and matter - time is not a property of matter and there is no way you can conclude that from NDEs
  • Our goal is to develop towards the Omega Point - this, although very interesting, is not a conclusion from NDEs
  • Scientific models of evolution, cosmology etc are valid; however, paradigm of materialistic monism is not. - Although I agree with this opinion, a person is very unlikely to develop this opinion from a NDE
  • Godhead - focuses on only one religion. changed to God
  • Near death experiencers report 360 degree vision and ability to see both extremely accurately and also detect other wavelengths than just the visible light. - is the same as omniscience
  • (boddhisattva). - focuses on only one religion.
  • The finite speed of light and the vast distances between habitable planetary systems are to prevent the various life forms from interfering each other. The "aliens" are similar children of God as we humans. - whilst this point is interesting, it's not a common conclusion of NDEs. you might want to include it elsewhere, in another article maybe.
  • (This is very much the same as the Islamic concept of Greater Jihad. - unneeded and irrelevant to NDEs

and you might want to put some full stops (periods if you're US) in in your next edit :P

Infinity0 11:26, 24 September 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Removing section called "As evidence suggesting the existence of God"

I have removed the recently contributed section called "As evidence suggesting the existence of God". My reasons for doing so are mainly source-critical.

For example:

Various naturalist explanation models of the near death experience have failed to convincingly explain the nature of the near death experience, and some of the models are simply impossible while others are in conflict on what is today known of medicine and evolution

- Please identify these explanation models in the academic landscape. Preferably with bibliographical references.

However, the near-death experiencers themselves are fully convinced of the validity of their experiences. Some common conclusions they draw from their experiences include:

- Please identify a published document (or documents) where this information about Near-Death experiencers is validated, or where these conclusions are discussed. Maybe it is available from a published survey-study of near-death experiencers?

Many of the mentioned themes (God, Time, Soul, Religions, the Omega Point, telepathy, reincarnation) are indeed discussed in near-death research and they are highly relevant to the article. I just believe that for the sake of clarity, and considering the welfare of the reader, it is important to identify who these commentators are?.. who is saying what?.. from what epistemological position are they speaking?..which academic fields are discussing these themes?.. and what are the major conflict lines? In other words, I believe it is important to place this discussion within academic discourse. --Hawol 15:18, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ketamine theory

I have removed the following section:

A theory which combines both the materialistic explanation and the afterlife explanation is that the ketamine experiments have simply discovered the mechanism on how the consciousness or soul detaches from the matter (brain). It is claimed that the consciousness doesn't actually reside in brain and synapses, but rather that brain is only the user interface of consciousness to the material world, the consciousness itself lying on the sub-particle level in the structure of universe. This hypothesis is supported by the fact that the memories, "memory bank", has not been succeeded to located in brain.

"It is claimed"--> who claims?

I am not questioning the relevance of the information, I am questioning the lack of sources. Please identify the originator(s) of this hypothesis, preferably with a reference. I do not intend to be overtly critical or normative in my editing style. I just believe that since the near-death experience is such a controversial and delicate area of interest, we owe the reader a thorough sorce-critical assessment of all the information that is published in this article. --Hawol 15:41, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

See also: Wikipedia: Cite_sources

[edit] Jansen, Negovsky: two suggestion for improvemets

The text says: Critics of Jansen's hypothesis point out that although some aspects of the experience may be similar, not all NDEs exactly fit the ketamine experience..

--> We need to identify these critics.

Also, I did several web-searches on the Negovsky title but did not succeed to find the name of the publisher of the book, or the publishing year. If anyone can look into this matter that would be nice. --Hawol 11:51, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

It's difficult to look into. I find references to it, which seems to be an academic paper, not a book, and there is plenty of information on the late Vladimir Negovsky "the father of reanimatology” in his obituary here: http://www.erc.edu/index.php/newsItem/en/nid=136/
The paper's original title is likely in Russian, which is where the difficulty lies. If anyone who can read Russian can locate the Russian article on the subject on pravda.ru, the title of the paper is probably in there. The English version is here: http://english.pravda.ru/printed.html?news_id=14745 --TouchGnome 04:36, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I see. But you have indeed provided two good reference points. Maybe the best thing to do would be to cite the Pravda article while we await more information on the Russian title. I will try to do such an edit. --Hawol 17:42, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Problematic section - As an afterlife experience

This section is problematic from a source-critical point of view and needs more documentation:

It is generally accepted that some people who reported NDEs were shown to be clinically dead, sometimes longer than a day.

- This statement sounds a bit eccentric without the support of a clinical study.

However, it is not shown that the experiences themselves took place in any time other than just before the clinical death, or in the process of being revived.

- We need to find theorists that can elaborate upon this view. It does sound reminiscent of some of the theories of Blackmore though.

Those who report NDEs typically respond by a major change of life perspective and direction, generally away from self-orientation toward outward orientation, or what they call a more loving life. The NDE is reported by some to feel "more real than life"[2]. Some former atheists have adopted a more spiritual view of life after NDEs[3] (for example Howard Storm and George Rodonaia). Those who report NDEs typically look forward to death, but despise suicide.

- These observations can probably be verified by some of the research that is done within the field of Near-Death Studies, but we need references.

--Hawol 10:09, 4 October 2005 (UTC)


The statement that those who report NDEs despise suicide needs further explanation. Also the frequently heard statement (which is not yet discussed here) that survivors of a suicide attempt typically report very uncomftable NDEs (similar to "Hell" rather than "Heaven"). I know about selected cases from television where suicide survivors report the typical heaven-like NDE (bright, warm light at the end of the tunnel, good feelings etc.), and in one case the survivor committed another suicide attempt. I suspect that mentions of bad NDE in connection with suicide are not always reported truthfully but made up in order to deter people from suicide. Imagine that an author presents a collection of NDEs (like R. Moody) but with truthfully reportes goog suicide NDEs and some peoble commit suicide after reading. In some countries (e.g. the U.S. I think) relatives of those could bring an action against the author (like those against the tobacco industry). But I also have made the experience that this topic seems to be among those not welcome to be discussed in the public. So it is very hard to get more information.--SiriusB 20:23, 9 October 2005 (UTC)


I agree with some of these observations. The following sentence needs more elaboration, preferably supported by a clinical study:

Those who report NDEs typically look forward to death, but despise suicide.

I have therefore removed this sentence until further notice. --Hawol 11:48, 12 October 2005 (UTC)


I added the sentence originally. Here is why, and I agree expansion might be good. Suicides do not necessarily lead to negative NDEs. However, the effect of the NDE is nevertheless generally a deterent to further suicidal tendencies. It is an interesting speculation that positive suicide NDEs are not reported due to liability concerns. But the fact is that a positive suicide NDE was included in Moody's movie "Life After Life". There is not to my knowledge any special suppression of suicide NDE accounts. The sentence should be restored and expanded, IMHO. Let me also say I can see my choice of the word despised relied on an archaic meaning ("depreciated") and gave the wrong picture. Tom Haws 06:18, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
Greyson has done some research on this issue. Maybe you can re-write the sentence and cite his study as a reference. Check out PubMed PMID: 7233478. Greyson B. Near-death experiences and attempted suicide. Suicide Life Threat Behav. 1981 Spring;11(1):10-6. PMID: 7233478 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]. --Hawol 16:58, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
The suspicion of suppression of suicide NDEs is supported by the decision of some regional newspapers not to report spectacular suicide attempts any more. It has been noticed that reports of suicices, e.g. peoble jumping from a bridge, seems to attract more suicides. So there has been an agreement to stop reporting such incidents. Furthermore, in Germany it is unlawful to publish positive experiences with drugs because they are treated as incitement to drug usage. Although (attempted) suicice does not violate law in Germany, incitement to suicide could violate the laws of protection of minors. Last but not least, there is no neurological or even psychological reason why suicide NDEs should be more prone to negative emotions than others. The effect of endorphines should be completely indepentend of the motivation, and any moral or conscience related influences ("feeling guilty") should be negligible if the brain activity (especially activity of the cerebrum) is low enough. Thus, the extreme bias in NDE reports towards negative suicide examples contradicts science and even logic.
I do not think that there is any kind of conspiracy (since no conspirator would benefit from it). But there might be silent agreements (like the non-silent one mentioned above) not to publish such NDEs. I must admit that I also would think twice about publishing reports that have limited use but probably induce much damage, especially if reported in typical TV talk shows or something like this.--SiriusB 19:01, 17 November 2005 (UTC)


Could someone please give a short summary of Greyson's research and results?--SiriusB 19:01, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

A short summary of the research and results of this particular study (Greyson, 1981) is given in the PubMed abstract available at PubMed PMID: 7233478. Just write the PMID (7233478) in the search box and click Go. --Hawol 17:18, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Current revison - Implications for health professionals

The following remark concerns the section called Implications for health professionals (point 6).

6. Recognize that near death experiences may have a profound effect on those considering suicide. In some cases, it may make suicide an even more tempting option. Sometimes, those who have attempted suicide and have had near death experiences return to life with the firm conviction that suicide is not a solution.

→ History says: (cur) (last) 13:26, 7 March 2006 Kitch m (→Implications for health professionals - Clarified the suicide notation)

How is it clarified? Unfortunately I don't have the text which these points are adapted form (Morse, 1991; Morse & Perry 1992). Anyway, if I were to speculate about the original meaning of this point I would suggest the following re-write.

6. Recognize that near death experiences may have a profound effect on those considering suicide. In some cases, it may make suicide an even more tempting option. However, those who have attempted suicide, and have had near death experiences, sometimes return to life with the firm conviction that suicide is not a solution.

--Hawol 14:16, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

I have removed the following two sentences as I found them to be in conflict with NPOV and unsupported by a reference.

Few experiencers tend to view the NDE as a brain hallucination. The tendency to explain the experience in terms of a materialistic model is usually offered by non-experiencers [4].
Ultimately, the hallucination theory is one which is very convincing to materialists, and very unconvincing to the vast majority of NDE experiencers [5].

--Hawol 15:15, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] add to "As a naturalistic experience"

http://www.livescience.com/humanbiology/060411_near_death.html Should have information added to "As a naturalistic experience" section? Near death experiences more common in people that have difficulty separating sleep from wakefulness.

What does sleep paralysis have to do with NDEs? -Iopq 14:44, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
As I understand it Sleep paralysis is first of all a sleep disorder, and not a near-death related experience. That said, it might - in some circumstances - share some similar dynamics to the features of a NDE. For example visual and auditory phenomena, and the feeling of being sourrounded by a presence. --Hawol 10:15, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What about centrifuges?

Pilots passing out in centrifuges describe the same symptoms as NDEs. -Iopq 14:48, 29 May 2006 (UTC)


[edit] External links section

I have done a clean up on the external link section, keeping only links that redirects the reader to well established organizations of academia and research. I believe that this kind of maintenance is necessary in order to keep this section as slim as possible. I do however believe that it is unfair to delete the problematic links as they certainly include a wide variety of interesting perspectives on NDE's. I have therefore provided a space for these left-over links here on the discussion site. This space might also be used to move future additions of problematic links from the mainsite. --Hawol 10:29, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

External links, moved fom the main article:

More skeptical articles in the external links would be good. All of the speptical links on there right now are blocked by my scool's web nanny (WebSense). 216.184.95.12 13:49, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] T. Lobsang Rampa

In several of Lobsang Rampa's books, mostly written in the 1950s and 1960s, he similarly details NDEs but in the context of the birth-death-rebirth cycles. In other words, if you don't come back (i.e. have a real death experience) you've moved on and will likely reincarnate/transmigrate to a future human.

[edit] "We"?

What's up with this personal "we" style in the article? We find, we can rule out, all we can say is, etc. I found it very distracting when I read the article and I think it should be changed. Thoughts? --217.233.248.137 03:18, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Recent contrubution, not supported by a reference

The following contribution is relevant information, but it is unsupported by a reference. Please report a written source where these observations are noted.

Some experiencers took note of having a corporeal form where others did not; a few report noting a silver cord as a quasi-physical link to their physical bodies.

Otherwise, interesting. --Hawol 15:49, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Question

I know there is no possible way to find out, but does a near-death experience also happen to one who has died, but never was revived? --70.77.11.85 23:51, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, this is detailed in several Lobsang Rampa books. See section above on TLR. --Robertkeller 21:37, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
S/He wouldn't be having a "near-death" experience now would they? ;) NeoFreak 15:40, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Recent change

Some one removed the sentence from the first paragraph which basically said that NDEs are caused by the fading brain and ofcourse have absolutely nothing to do with the afterlife, and put instead a sentace illuding that NDEs are somehow "linked" to the afterlife. In light of no evidence, disregard to the concensus of scientific community, and introduction of unsupported believes, I had to remove it, and restore it to the previous version. Igoruha 19:28, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

The article seems too slanted towards a naturalistic explanation for the NDE. I added material to balance it out more and provide readers with a less biased viewpoint. NDE research in the Netherlands and elsewhere has shown that NDEs are not the result of anoxia, hypoxia or hallucinations caused by medication. Additionally, research by Dr. Michael Sabom described a woman who underwent surgery for an aneurysm and the blood from her brain was emptied completely. She described having an NDE despite a flatline EEG. This is in contrast to some scientists belief that NDEs are caused by a fading brain (which, by the way, is NOT the "consensus of the scientific community." far from it. See: Morse, Sabom, Moody, Stevenson, Ring, et al.)

I support the balance; can you provide a scintific literature that justifies your view point ?Igoruha 22:50, 4 November 2006 (UTC).

I already have. Van Lommel is a cardiologist and so is Dr. Michael Sabom. Both have been published papers and written books on the subject. Dr. Melvin Morse wrote about NDEs in children and used his famous Seattle study to back up the work of Dr. Penfield from the 1940s (e.g. that NDEs can be triggered by stimulating an area near the Sylvian fissure in the brain). Morse hypothesized that the soul is connected to the brain and that this mind-body connection helps explain why NDEs are so different than consciousness while in the body. Articles published by Lancet and IANDS are generally supportive of NDEs being an afterlife experience.

Let me rephrase, can you provide an internet link to the work(s) you read (or atleast cite them properly) ?Igoruha 22:03, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

1) http://iands.org/research/vanLommel/vanLommel.php 2) http://iands.org/research/vanLommel/vanLommel0.php

[edit] Someone Be Bold

Someone be bold and remove all of the uncited and shittily cited (things cited like "Stefanski, 2001"). This is possibly the worst article in the whole of Wikipedia. 76.210.187.57 21:41, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

You need to get out and see some more of Wikipedia if you think this is the worst article out there :) I'll see what I can't do as this article was on my hit list anyway but you have to remember that not every single line or statement is going to have a cite on it when much of the article is pulled from physical sources like books, newspapers and magazines. Don't be afraid to be bold yourself, get an account and dive in. If it's bad it can always be reverted with a few clicks.
On another note I have some copyvio concerns with this article as well as it reads like muchof it was just pulled from source texts. Can the editors with the refs chime in, please? NeoFreak 22:27, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Well my attempt to extend the content some was trounced as "doesn't give any information" - I'm certain it could have been expanded but sometimes I guess it's easier to just cut. I used to particpate in online discussions a lot but was not happy hours of research would just age away into lost history. Now hours of research can be deleted because it's no good. I'm sure it's an improvement somehow.--Smkolins 23:56, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
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